Free Will

[Age]

That's the problem with positing non-dualism.

No one is positing non-duality. That's the whole point that non-duality is pointing to.


Look for yourself. There is no one that can be seen or known pointing to itself, except the self appearing in the mirror, which can only appear to be the exact mirror image of the no one.

Thinking or believing that 'a human body' is 'a self' is where a lot of confusion comes from and why a lot conflict and misunderstand, still, occurs, in the days when this is being written.

Now, although it is impossible to see 'a person' or 'a self' with the physical human eyes, it is absolutely possible to 'see', and 'understand', the invisible 'self', and invisible 'Self'.

So the one who previously isn't seen or known to itself, is now appearing to itself as a known image, in the duality of one appearing as two.

And yes, the image of self is only able to be seen and known as illustrated below in the image you are looking at, or looking upon.

But, 'that' is just 'a reflection', or 'an image', of a 'human body' only. Which can, obviously, be seen with the human eyes because of the 'physical matter, which makes up 'an object' or 'a body', like the 'human body'.

This image here is all that can be seen and known about myself.

LOL How little they 'knew', and 'saw'.

1. 'myself' is an oxymoron.

2. If 'that' is absolutely all that 'you' can 'see', and 'know', and 'you', 'the self', then there is far, far more for 'you' to 'learn' and 'understand' here. That is; of course, if you were Truly interested in 'seeing', and 'knowing', more.

This image below is a nondual image, because it's an image of the imageless.

The seer that cannot be seen, can only be known, become known as and through the identical mirror image of itself. The duality is plain to see in this image below. This image and no image is the divine paradox that doesn't exist except as the illusion of twoness.

Get it yet?



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[Age]

Well, if Fairy IS God, because all is non-dual, then how can Fairy have a god?

Come on now IC... Fairy can have a God, in the exact same way Jesus can have a God.

Don't forget, it was Jesus the man, who is reported to have spoken to other men and women, of his Father being God. So was Jesus talking about his biological Father, his actual physical Father, or was he talking about some other Father? See the problem, which God is which?

Considering that there, really, is only One, there can only, really, only ever be One God.

Now, God exists as One, but can be described in two forms, one being the 'visible', and, the other being the 'invisible'. And, because the word God is synonymous with the word Universe, and since the Universe, Itself, is infinite and eternal, and is made up of the 'visible' and the 'invisible', and is the Creator of absolutely all, 'perceived', things, which combined make up, and are just parts of, the Universe, Itself, then there is not a contradiction nor inconsistency absolutely anywhere here.

The 'visible' part of the One universal God is just the 'matter' that can be 'seen', with human eyes, and, the 'invisible' part of the One universal God is just the 'Mind' that cannot be 'seen', with human eyes. This 'invisible' part is also known as the 'Spirit', and the 'visible' and 'invisible' parts are also known as the 'Creator'.

which is the real God, and which is the illusory God?

This would absolutely all depend on how 'you' are defining the words 'real', and, 'illusory'.

When, and if, 'you' clarify this fully and Correctly, then 'the answer', which 'you' are asking for can then be provided, and/or brought to light.

Or, are they both the same God. How does that work? unless the contradiction/paradox is all part of the same knowing knowledge?

Do you really anticipate that I, or you, or anyone is going to be able to attribute a "how" to the existence of the eternal Supreme Being?

No one knows 'How' except God, but then does God even know 'HOW'

God/I do not just 'know' 'how', but also 'why', 'when', 'what', and 'where', exactly.

That's the begging question. Any 'How' question can only be answered if there is a sense of separation.

The very reason 'why' you human beings are, ever so very, very slowly, evolving while making 'more sense' and obtaining 'more of an understanding' of God/the Universe, Itself, is because you human beings do 'look at' and 'see' things from a 'separated' or 'divided' 'sense'.

The human brain, literally, needed, and needs, to do 'this' to 'make sense', and 'understand', of ALL-OF-THIS.

But One and only God can never be separated from himself can he.

Here is another who wants to, and seemingly likes to, refer to God as a "him". Now, let 'us' see if this one can explain why it does 'this', when, obviously, it is a complete and utter logical and physical impossibility to 'be so'.

And so who would be asking How?

you human beings ask inquisitive questions, that is; when there is 'curiosity' anyway. However, because of a so-called 'education system', the natural 'curiosity' that exists within all young children slowly, or very quickly, depending on who's perspective, deteriorates, and can become no more.

Although there is always 'curiosity', and even 'intelligence', itself, always existing, within. Both are, sadly, lost and become no more, again because of an 'ill-gotten', and very Wrongly taught 'education-system'. Through ridicule and humiliation children 'learn' to stop asking questions, and thus to stop being 'intelligent' and 'inquisitive'. Which is 'why' younger human beings 'want to' ask far more questions than you adult human beings do.

For example, if a young child hears some thing like, 'God created every thing', then that child will ponder, and, will want to anyway, ask some thing like, 'How can God do this? and/or, 'Who created God?'

To which that child will get a reply along the lines of, 'There are some things that we are not meant to know'. To which that child, being told, and thus 'taught', from the very one/s that they, literally, 'look up to', 'admire', and 'follow', just like 'a God', that is; you adult human beings, then 'that child' has and is 'now', slowly learning, way to quickly, that it is better that it stops asking questions, and thus just stops seeking clarity and understanding.

And, this process is sped up, exponentially, if 'that child' is laughed at or ridiculed for just not yet 'knowing' some thing.

This 'fear' of not yet 'knowing' some thing, which stops one from just being Truly open and honest, can be clearly seen here throughout this forum, when these posters here are just questioned over the things and claims that they say and make here.

..would that be the one God asking that question, that can only arise to the sense of separation.

God 'knows' absolutely any thing. This is irrefutable, and provable.

If, and when, God asks you human beings questions, then this is because It wants to 'see' how 'you' will respond.

Which would mean God is separating himself from himself,

Just the word 'himself' is an impossible separation in and of itself.

to ask his other self the question of HOW he exists.

God 'knows', exactly, who 'It' is, what 'It' is, how 'It' exists, where 'It' exists, when 'It' exists, and even, exactly, why 'It' exists. 'I/God' also 'know' the exact same things for you human beings, as well.

Only you human beings ask questions like these, because and when you do not, yet, 'know'.

So this would mean that God would have had to have had 'two selves' one to ask the question of how, and the other to answer the question.

Again, 'you' are just confusing "your" 'self", and creating 'contradictions' here, because when 'you' use your own 'past experiences' to 'try to' explain things here, 'you' are missing or misunderstanding the actual and irrefutable Truth.

See how these attributes start to get very messy when attempting to point to an actual causer of cause, when all that can be known are the unknown causer's effects?

Once again, 'we' have here another one who believes, absolutely, that if 'it' has not yet come-to-learn and know some thing, then absolutely no one else could have, nor would have.

Which is just so very, very Wrong.

So all in all, I guess that how will never be answered except in a story perhaps, a fictional story, in the same context of why it's very difficult for Cinderella to know her biological Father, could she ever know, or will she forever remain a lone bastard child. Poor girl.

See the problem, of claiming to have or know a God? that is like saying yes, there is a God, but I have no idea how God is God, I just know that God is.

So, 'you' are criticizing the 'very thing' that 'you', "yourself", are doing here.

No created being has any idea of how God is, can a machine ever know it's maker.

Just because 'you', "fairy", do not have absolutely any idea how 'you' were created, through and by evolution, does not mean that no one else, nor already has.

'I' 'know', exactly, the irrefutable answers to all of the questions here. However, because of 'the belief' within all of you posters here, none of you have absolutely any real interest, nor curiosity, here, left.

So the creator, must be all alone, forever one with himself eternally one without a second. I mean gosh, if that's the truth, then even God himself doesn't know how he is God.

Why do you, continually, believe that what you believe is true and right, then God, Itself, must also believe, and/or know, the 'exact same thing'?

What a dilemma, wouldn't you agree?

What an imaginary dilemma, that 'you', "yourself", have created here, do you not mean?

[Age]

Oh. So you think they back you? I'd be really interested to see that demonstrated. Fire away.

If you, however, had been born a Muslim, you'd have turned out exactly as you are now, an absolute literalist, the only difference being one of scripture demonstrating what a diseased mind looks like in both cases.

IC would definitley be one of those exploding Muslims.

That is for absolutely sure.

[Fairy]

Well that's what we expect from you, perhaps one day you might surprise us.

Atto’s God

Fairy’s God

IC’s God

That’s 3 Gods just there.

See the problem?

To me 'a problem' is just 'a question' posed for 'a solution'. So, I, literally, do not see 'a problem' here, at all.

What I do see here, however, are three separate individual human beings who each have differing set of views and beliefs, within.

Now, and once more, what is actually and irrefutably True, and Right, in Life, is found, and known, through what is 'in agreement' among human beings, and not from what is 'in disagreement'.

Furthermore, the parts in what each of you are individually saying here which are irrefutably True, from those parts that you are each expressing which are False are crystal clear to 'see', and recognize. Again, that is when one learns and knows how to 'look at' and 'see' things, from the True and Right perspective.

I totally agree with that statement, Age.

Until we all agree upon the same one God, then there'll just be 'multiple gods' not the one true God. The one true God will just remain elusive and hidden all the more.

Until we all SEE the same one true God, in the same way we all see our own physical human body. Is when we will all agree about the one true God. Just as we can all agree, we each and every one of us can see our own physical body.

[Fairy]

If all we’re doing is trying to show our own God, the one according to our own understanding to each other. Then One God is a false notion.

Not necessarily so.

Just because you are each sharing your own individual personal, different, views and beliefs, which are just coming from the Assumptions from your own individual personal, different, Previous Experiences, then this does not conclude that the One and only God is false nor even a false notion.

What that means is that you are each just expressing and sharing your own, gained along the way, personal and different views and beliefs, only.

Yes, I agree with that statement as well, Age.

But what I meant by what I'd said, was that while we are all believing in different Gods. The true one God, that each and every one of us believes in, according to our own personal direct experiences, might appear to differ from someone else's belief in the one true God. So the differences will obviously create a conflicting opinion, making our personal beliefs about the one true God, seem like a false notion to other believers that are different to our own.
So in essence, the real one true God, will seem like it is being hidden from us, and will stay hidden until we all let go of our differences, even though the one true God, is never hidden from us at all. It's just that some of us, have not yet agreed upon which and what that one true God is exactly, that we can all agree upon.

[Fairy]

More irrational nonsense to follow.
It’s not surprising at all.

If you 'know' that what you say and claim here is 'nonsense', then in 'what sense' does it make in sharing and expressing 'it'?

I'll answer that for you quite happily, Age.

The concept known as ''nonsense'' means to me, is that whenever there is a belief that is being expressed by a someone to another someone. The one hearing that belief by another one, could be seen by the other to be a nonsense, if what is being heard does not resonate with the person listening to the other's belief. So whatever belief by another is being listened to, might not be heard or seen as a sense to them. Even though what has been said by the other makes perfect sense to them, and is why maybe the one who sees sense in what they are sharing with another, wants to share and express their own sense to another someone. So why do people do this? I think it's because humans secretly want to arrive at the same truths, about the nature of being or self, or even God, that they can all agree upon.

But again, what is being heard may or may not make sense, so what may or may not make sense to someone else, might be seen a non-sense to another, in others words, what appears to make sense to one or another, will not make sense to the one receiving the sense expressed and shared by another..

Notice though, that there's no such thing as a ''nonsense'', in the context of a 'none existing sense', there's got to be just a myriad of differences, when it comes to sense, when it comes to human beliefs that make sense to them individually.

In truth, there is no such sense as a non sense, there is only sense, and that sense is in all of us. In all of us, we are able to make sense of what we each sense individually according to our own sense of beingness, which will be true for each and every one of us.

Remember, ONENESS never has any argument with itself. It is only where there are apparent differences, when there are many of us, is when that oneness that connects us all as one consciousness, is there apparent agitation, or conflict.

[Fairy]

Honestly - U did come forth with some gold: Ephesians 4:6

Yes, but that gold was a nugget of knowledge.

Knowledge can only point to the illusory nature of reality, in that it's ONE.

The concept of ONE is a known concept of knowledge,, one is simply known, one in this case, is referring to itself, it's reflecting upon itself alone, it simply means, there is no God because there is no other than God.

After long enough 'reflecting' One can, and did, come-to-'see' 'recognize' who and what thee Self, really is. Or, in another way, 'I' have already come-to-'know' thy Self.

'I' am God, of which there is only One.

'I', in the visible sense, is the 'matter', which can be seen, heard, smelt, felt, and tasted.

'I', in the invisible sense, is the Mind, which cannot be seen, heard, smelt, felt, nor tasted, but is 'known', and 'known', irrefutably, to exist.

'I/God' being 'matter', and, 'Mind' am, literally, the Universe, Itself. Which although is an eternal and infinite One, is actually made up of 'two' things, alone. They being, visible, 'matter', and, invisible, 'space'.

Now, 'matter' is, contrary to what most have never really also considered, just One thing only. But which is throughout the whole Universe and which has to be separated by 'a distance', of which is just known as 'space'.

The 'two' co-jointly exist as One, because one without the other is an absolute impossibility. As has been, and can be, explained and proved True.

God exists, but only when one is defining the word God as being within, and the Creator of, ALL.

God, therefore, could never ever be 'gendered', a 'person, nor anything else. Unless, of course, one wants to 'try to' say and claim that God is something else.

Now, because of the way this One and only Universe works, you human beings have been 'installed' with 'free will', when the words 'free will' are being defined as 'the ability to choose', but what has also been 'pre-installed', relative to your human being perspective, is a 'deterministic' factor, which is leading all of you to 'where' every one, literally, wants to be. That is; living in Peace, and in Harmony, with one another, together, as One, HERE is this One and only Universe, NOW.

This is only One, which is moving towards Creating what 'I/t' Truly want, and desire.

This One is, however, at the fundamental level made up of 'two' things, as this is the only way the One thing could exist. And, it are these two, separate or different, things, which provides 'a perception' of 'separation'. It is because of this 'perceived separation' that is only way the human brain can make 'sense' of 'the world' and Universe, in which it has found itself within. And, it was the human brain, a biological information gathering and storing device that was needed for the One and only God, 'I', to be, literally, able to come-to-know (thy) Self.

Now, of course, and obviously, if you human beings had wiped "yourselves" out before 'I' came-to-know who and what 'I' am, exactly, then, because the Universe, Itself, is eternal, then 'one day' another intelligent enough species, of biological matter, would have evolved, and come into, Existence, from which 'I', the Universe, God, Itself would have come-to-know recognize, and know, 'Thee' anyway.

Now, for you human beings who think 'you are It', as the saying goes, well 'you' are not.

'I', God, have been and am the One who has been, and 'NOW' has, 'come-to-know thy Self', as the Revelation has been referred to.

'I' am 'IT', as "attofishpi" calls 'IT'. 'you', human beings, are not 'It'. 'you' human beings are, and have been, just a 'part of the process', along 'the way', of the One coming to know One.

Well said, explained, thanks for doing this, and doing it very well. I agree with everything written here.

[Fairy]

Thinking or believing that 'a human body' is 'a self' is where a lot of confusion comes from and why a lot conflict and misunderstand, still, occurs, in the days when this is being written.

Yes, I agree, Age.

It's not the body that sees, the body is being seen, by that which the body cannot see, because there is only one seer, not two, not the seer and the seen.

Now, although it is impossible to see 'a person' or 'a self' with the physical human eyes, it is absolutely possible to 'see', and 'understand', the invisible 'self', and invisible 'Self'.

I agree.

And the reason I can understand what you have said about the invisible self. Is because I understand the invisible self is the invisible looking, which is looking out of the physical eyeball, and yet this looking, is known to itself, only when contact is made instantaneously when the seen physical eyeball is looked upon by the invisible seeing.

In other words, in my understanding Age, is that the invisible seer, and the thing seen are identical mirror images of each other, both are needed for the other to exist, even though both are the same ONE ...and yet, only appearing to be different, that's all.

[Fairy]

'Behind' or within all of the regular posters here there is a Being, which is the absolute Intelligent One, and who is the One who has been trying to get you adult human beings to 'listen', and 'hear', here. This is 'the One' who is the Truly Intelligent, Good, Caring, Compassionate, and Caring One, and who is 'the One' who is 'driving' all of you human beings here to remain and to 'keep trying to express' what is actually True and Right. But, in 'front of' this One, there is 'you', human beings, who are twisting and distorting the actual Truth, from coming to the forefront, because of those presumptions and beliefs, which 'you' really just do not yet want to 'let go of' and 'get rid of'.

The Truly Intelligent One, within all of 'you', is the One and only One, which also goes by the names Spirit, Allah, God, Enlightenment, among others. The "man" or "woman" is never the Truly Intelligent One, but is just the misnomers that you adult human beings give, and put onto,"yourselves".

Well said, Age. I totally agree 100%

Beautiful Ageless Age.

[attofishpi]

Jesus, I remember when MDMA was that good over here.

[Fairy]

And, every word in the bible 'points to' the One God. So, why are you and "immanuel can" arguing over here, exactly? And, what are you two even bickering and fighting over, exactly?

if either or both of you are, still, unaware, you have both been talking about and referring to the exact same Thing.

I agree with you Age.

IC and Fairy are arguing about the same God in different ways, that's all.

IC believes in a triune God, whereas Fairy believes in a Nondual God. But both are the same God, except they are just described differently that's all.
IC won't let go of his version, and I won't let go of my version, metaphorically speaking, not literally speaking.

IC's God, includes the spirit, which has no frame of reference within the dual world of knowledge, so to speak of, so it's not necessary to include, where knowledge is concerned.

What has no frame of reference, like the spirit realm of god, will never make sense to the one trying to make sense. Sense can only be made with the knowledge we already have, as the mind of mental constructs is the only frame of reference available to humanity.

The difference is that IC has added a ''middleman'' into the duality of existence, whereas Fairy has eliminated the ''middleman'' as being an illusory entity made of pure imagination and fantasy like a fairytale character within a book. Which is always of past tense, and never not the pure unknowing SUPER EXTRAORDINARY INTELLIGENT aliveness that is always present in the here and now eternally where no one, the one real true God resides as pure potential.

The past is where God resides in storybook only, and the demand for that knowledge is always available, but only now, not in the past, or the future, which do not exist.

[Age]

Then the self-contradiction must be necessary.

It can't be. That which contradicts eliminates both statements by way of the other. All one can do is affirm one, or neither, not both.

Come on now, the claim of yours that God is triune three in ONE God, being the father, son, and the holy spirit..as ONE wholly whole. Is a contradiction in the knowledge of that knowledge. Surely you must see that?

What's evident is two things, really: firstly, that God does exist, and is the First Cause of all that is.

When you say and claim 'evident', then what is this word in relation to, exactly?

So, God is the Universe, which is eternal.

This is just an irrefutable Fact.

But, unlike your completely impossible belief God and the Universe are not separate. Although while you keep desperately trying to hold onto, and keep desperately trying to maintain, this belief, you will not be able to recognize and 'see' the actual Truth here.

And secondly, that His self-revelation is as self-existent, which necessarily can only be the case if, as His self-revelation also proclaims, He is triune, not a monad.

Once again, this one keeps believing, absolutely, that some separate male gendered entity, being, or person created the whole Universe, Itself. Which is absolutely laughable, if it was not serious just how Truly lost, bamboozled, and tricked and fooled some adult human beings really are by their very own individually made up beliefs.

Now, you ask, "How?" And at that point, I have to stop and admit the limits of human knowledge.

So, here 'we' have another who cannot just admit that it does not know. But, also will try to claim that what it does not know is not yet known and/or is not even knowable by absolutely all human beings

But it would come as a great surprise, surely, if we human beings stood in possession of exhaustive knowledge of the Supreme Being.

Because of the absolute simplicity of the 'exhaustive knowledge of God, or the Supreme Being, and of how simply that knowledge was to come into possession of, it did not come as a great surprise, at all. In fact what came as more of a bigger surprise was with the realization that all of this exhaustive knowledge' was already 'known', but just 'unconsciously known'.

We are creatures with a small "cup," and He is greater than the Pacific Ocean by an infinite amount.

LOL The creature with the small cup, still, actually believes that the so-called "he" is a "he".

So there's a certain amount of that we're just going to have to accept without being able to claim exhaustive knowledge.

Once more what can be absolutely clearly seen here is this one believing, absolutely, just what it has been told and informed of, which it, obviously, has never once ever questioned, nor challenged. This one was told that there are some things that it, and its fellow creatures, were never meant to know.

Which is absolutely hilarious, considering the Facts of Creation, Itself, and evolution, itself

Many monist, Panentheist, Pantheist, mystical, gnostic and non-dualist philosophers and theologians, you'll recall, have said exactly the same thing, really: that there comes a point when the knowledge of God simply cannot be articulated by human beings...

LOL
LOL
LOL

Once again, here 'we' can see another clear example of how human beings, in the past, continually believed that what was known, and/or what had been invented, is a far as human beings, collectively, could go.

See, the Fact is that the knowledge of God can be articulated, and very simply and very easily I will add.

and they have sometimes even thought that nothing about God could really be articulated at all -- paradoxically, thereby articulating at least one fact about God. I'm not nearly so glum on the prospects as they: I think our little "cup" can handle a few sips from the "Ocean." But only according to what God Himself is willing to reveal,

LOL God does not 'hide' any thing from you human beings.

you people are just not able to 'see' and 'hear' the Truths of Life, in Life, not because God is hiding any thing from 'you' but because 'you' adult ones close "yourselves" off with your beliefs and presumptions.

of course; we could not get knowledge of God by any other means. The rest of us are just humans, and none has privileges above the others in this particular way -- that none has access to the knowledge of God that is not provided by God Himself.

[Age]

IC thanks for your reply. My response: yes, God is.

I trust only God, the one who brought me here will take me home.

All is good.

But, 'this' is home.

Where else could 'home' be other than HERE?

[Fairy]

IC thanks for your reply. My response: yes, God is.

I trust only God, the one who brought me here will take me home.

All is good.

But, 'this' is home.

Where else could 'home' be other than HERE?

[Fairy]

Free Will…Is an offer.

Nothing here within the dream of separation is a given, nor is it ever taken away. What’s here is an offer, to take or leave, accept or reject. This gift on offer, to choose wisely or poorly, is essentially, the ultimate law of supreme universal intelligence.

Whatever choice made is a lesson, because the idea of choice in the first place is to understand the concept of “favourable”

And so, choices, good or bad, are never in vain. Ultimately they are on offer as a vital tool as you sojourn through life, ultimately reaching your final destination which is eternal unconditional love, bliss, peace, harmony, contentment and wholeness.

To choose one thing over another is a free choice, nothing is forcing this choice, and nothing is obligated to choose.

Choosing is automatic where desire is prevalent.

The end of desire, by choice, is the end of Dukkha, the end of Samsara.

The end of desire is the end of Dukkha, it is the sweet surrender and reconciliation with the divine supreme intelligence of oneness. The reunion with the perfect, good one.