Free Will

[Immanuel Can]

You believe Jesus was God right?

Certainly something caused Him to be within Mary's womb or no?

Hmmm...you don't understand the Christian view on that, it would seem. Christ existed before He was incarnate. Look it up...it's what the Bible says was the case...John 1:1, and 17:5, for example.

Sure, Christ existed as a man prior to "going in" - my point remains, there was a cause to his incarnation as Jesus via Mary's womb.

That's only to say there was a "cause" of the process called "the Incarnation." It's not at all to say that Christ Himself had a "cause."

[attofishpi]

Hmmm...you don't understand the Christian view on that, it would seem. Christ existed before He was incarnate. Look it up...it's what the Bible says was the case...John 1:1, and 17:5, for example.

Sure, Christ existed as a man prior to "going in" - my point remains, there was a cause to his incarnation as Jesus via Mary's womb.

That's only to say there was a "cause" of the process called "the Incarnation." It's not at all to say that Christ Himself had a "cause."

Of course He did - he formed from the pantheistic matter that is God.

[Immanuel Can]

...he formed from the pantheistic matter that is God.

A pantheistic "god" couldn't even exist. "Existence" would be an impossible concept, then.

[Dubious]

My point wasn’t at all ad hom. It was what you verifiably did. I merely pointed out that it had nothing to do with the truth or falsehood of the propositions we had been discussing, and was evidently an obscurantist tactic rather than an attempt to grapple with the ideas. That’s the problem with ad homs.

You were never open to ideas, only to your beliefs. To be open to ideas, it's precisely the beliefs which must be questioned. For someone like you, whose beliefs have long merged into fact such an analysis is impossible.

Well, there's another way of looking at that: and that is, that person with weak, malformed ideas is very likely to find somebody with better ideas "not open" to what they have to offer.

Good thing, too.

That would be true if history, logic, and science were all malformations, though they remain my guides to discovery, whereas everything you need to know or aspire to know, begins with Adam and Eve as the first mating couple, history proceeding from there. Total acceptance of the majorly malformed ideas of biblical times is your specialty, not mine. One has to wonder how moderns, after so much discovery, can still think that way but evidently such malformations of the brain are clearly possible.

If you ever get it right, you'll know what to blame it on.

[Immanuel Can]

You were never open to ideas, only to your beliefs. To be open to ideas, it's precisely the beliefs which must be questioned. For someone like you, whose beliefs have long merged into fact such an analysis is impossible.

Well, there's another way of looking at that: and that is, that person with weak, malformed ideas is very likely to find somebody with better ideas "not open" to what they have to offer.

Good thing, too.

That would be true if history, logic, and science were all malformations...

Oh. So you think they back you? I'd be really interested to see that demonstrated. Fire away.

[attofishpi]

...he formed from the pantheistic matter that is God.

A pantheistic "god" couldn't even exist. "Existence" would be an impossible concept, then.

I'd be interested in hearing your reasoning as to why YOU think a pantheistic God could not exist..

Especially in light of God revealing Himself as such..

Ephesians 4:6 (NIV): "One God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all."

This verse is part of a section in which the Apostle Paul is urging the believers in Ephesus to live in unity and to appreciate the diverse gifts given to them by the Spirit.

In this particular verse, Paul emphasizes the unity of God and the omnipresence of the Father. Here are a few key points about the verse:

Monotheism: The verse underscores the belief in one God and one Father, which is a central tenet in Christian faith. It reflects the idea of a single, unified divine presence that governs everything.

Omnipresence: The phrase "over all and through all and in all" highlights God's omnipresence, meaning that God is present everywhere and is involved in every aspect of creation.

Unity in Diversity: This verse ties into the broader context of the chapter, where Paul speaks about maintaining unity among believers despite their diverse gifts and roles within the body of Christ.

Overall, Ephesians 4:6 serves to remind Christians of the foundational belief in one sovereign God who is intimately involved in the world and in the lives of believers.

[Dubious]

Well, there's another way of looking at that: and that is, that person with weak, malformed ideas is very likely to find somebody with better ideas "not open" to what they have to offer.

Good thing, too.

That would be true if history, logic, and science were all malformations...

Oh. So you think they back you? I'd be really interested to see that demonstrated. Fire away.

If these disciplines, including ceaseless research, back the status quo of modern western civilization and not the Taliban variety, which you're more related to, I'd subscribe to that as there being nothing more advanced in terms of knowledge at this time. If you, however, had been born a Muslim, you'd have turned out exactly as you are now, an absolute literalist, the only difference being one of scripture demonstrating what a diseased mind looks like in both cases.

[Dubious]

A few things I believe re this ongoing God "process":

Atto:

I found your post to be most interesting in its concepts, much of which strikes me as quite original. I admit to not quite knowing how to respond; there's a lot of meat here to digest. Your god view presents a challenge beyond what's usually presented and easily dismembered. I need to re-torque my thinking, which I seldom have to do in replying to others but a reply will definitely follow. This is simply to let you know, impatient fellow that you are, I have no intention of ignoring this.

[attofishpi]

A few things I believe re this ongoing God "process":

Atto:

I found your post to be most interesting in its concepts, much of which strikes me as quite original. I admit to not quite knowing how to respond; there's a lot of meat here to digest. Your god view presents a challenge beyond what's usually presented and easily dismembered. I need to re-torque my thinking, which I seldom have to do in replying to others but a reply will definitely follow. This is simply to let you know, impatient fellow that you are, I have no intention of ignoring this.

..impatient! One would think one such as myself with all the time in the world would no longer be tainted by such a vice

[Fairy]

More nonsense to follow.

Well that's what we expect from you, perhaps one day you might surprise us.

Atto’s God

Fairy’s God

IC’s God

That’s 3 Gods just there.

See the problem?

If all we’re doing is trying to show our own God, the one according to our own understanding to each other. Then One God is a false notion.

That’s the nonsense of claiming to know God. God never claimed to be God, or ever claimed to exist. Only humans are claiming the existence of a God.

A human is a concept known within consciousness. Now tell me honestly, can that which exists as a concept known, really know anything of it’s existence outside of this direct knowledge, this immediate, not- knowing known?

More irrational nonsense to follow.
It’s not surprising at all.

[attofishpi]

More nonsense to follow.

Well that's what we expect from you, perhaps one day you might surprise us.

Atto’s God

Honestly - U did come forth with some gold: Ephesians 4:6

[Fairy]

Well that's what we expect from you, perhaps one day you might surprise us.

Atto’s God

Honestly - U did come forth with some gold: Ephesians 4:6

Yes, but that gold was a nugget of knowledge.

Knowledge can only point to the illusory nature of reality, in that it's ONE.

The concept of ONE is a known concept of knowledge,, one is simply known, one in this case, is referring to itself, it's reflecting upon itself alone, it simply means, there is no God because there is no other than God.

[attofishpi]

Atto’s God

Honestly - U did come forth with some gold: Ephesians 4:6

Yes, but that gold was a nugget of knowledge.

Yes, and it never ceases to amaze me when God provides the info in such a timely manner, this time working via the synapses within your brain to provide atto with said info. (as pertinent to my current ongoing chat with IC)

[Fairy]

...he formed from the pantheistic matter that is God.

A pantheistic "god" couldn't even exist. "Existence" would be an impossible concept, then.

Concepts are possible.

Are you not reading a concept right now on this white board, the concept that appears to you in coloured symbols which are being revealed to you right now.
And the only reason you the reader are able to see the coloured symbols is because they are written on a contrasting screen so as to stand out from the screen. But notice, that as soon as you start to read and make sense of what you are reading, it is important that both the screen and it's contents are inseparably one reality, even though appearing as two thing, the words and the blank screen on which the words are being looked upon. Both the concepts and the screen on which they appear, cannot be known to exist, independently in and of themself without the other to compliment it and make it whole.

For example: a pure white blank screen, is not going to show anything, or know anything, even though it's here, and has to be here, in order to be able to know a concept, written upon it's screen. Well that screen, is like what awareness is. The blank screen of awareness, is a metaphor, the absence of which is never an experience, so awareness always has to be first and fundamental. There is only here the experience of awareness aware of itself, one without a second, and yet appearing as the many, as the words are being looked upon, as they are being read by the one reader.
Notice consciousness is in every single one of us, it's the same one consciousness behind every creatures eyes, and the consciousness that is human is appearing in every human, and so every humans reading this white board, are seeing the exact same images, appearing as words, and are conceptually known to all of us who are reading via the knowledge we already have accumulated since our birth, namely, our conception of ourself. So you see, concepts are possible. It works for other languages as well, all languages are concepts known by the knower of those particular languages.

And so as soon as words start to appear upon that blank nothingness, is when something appears and reveals itself to itself, via the contrast, via the complimentary opposite, which is always an inseparable unity and nothing else.

The contradiction is necessary if the reader which is consciousness is able to make sense of it's reality, because it is through the words, that consciousness becomes consciousness of itself in it's own conception, via the concept of it's own knowing.

Remember, there is no such thing as non-duality, because non-duality is not a thing. Duality is all things, all concepts, known to the ONE and only ONE...that one is the reader.

Many authors appear as concepts known to the reader, but there is only ever ONE reader reading writing no one ever wrote. That's the illusory nature of knowledge.

The illusion is all that's ever known and seen.

And so concepts are possible, just as illusions are possible. Things are never what they seem to be, nor are they never NOT what they seem to be.
The apparent contradiction is DIVINE

[Fairy]

Honestly - U did come forth with some gold: Ephesians 4:6

Yes, but that gold was a nugget of knowledge.

Yes, and it never ceases to amaze me when God provides the info in such a timely manner, this time working via the synapses within your brain to provide atto with said info. (as pertinent to my current ongoing chat with IC)

Yes I understand what you are saying and meaning. I have no problem with you personally. I get that we can only know the God of our own understandings.

I'm not a fan of your personality, it has an energy that's too abrasive and erratic and noisy for my personal liking. But having said that, I kind of sense you are a good, caring, and compassionate empath, and that underneath all your rather aggressive reactive behaviour, is some very intelligent man.

I prefer the peace and tranquil life.
I like IC, because he's peaceful, he has all the time in the world to listen to others, he is eager to help others evolve spiritually. I like that about him. You on the other hand are very intolerant and dismissive of other people sometimes, which is frustrating, because you are extremely clued up about what God means to you personally, and I admire that. I share the same fire and passion when it comes to God.