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That doesn't answer my question: are people who didn't vote for Trump or who don't pay taxes also responsible for the deaths in the Iran War? Are you responsible for the deaths in the Iran War? Or are you not responsible?
I feel no guilt for things I don't do
I remain impenitent
-Imp
But you said we're all responsible. Are you now saying that we are not all responsible? Or are you saying that you don't feel guilt even when you're responsible for getting the rest of us into a war in which we don't want to be responsible for the deaths and destruction happening? Can we all blame you if we want to for the ethical dilemma we're in? Or did you not vote for Trump?
you can blame whoever you like; I cannot control your mind or actions...
I said "taken to extremes, everyone is responsible in a way - peripherally at best"
But you said we're all responsible. Are you now saying that we are not all responsible? Or are you saying that you don't feel guilt even when you're responsible for getting the rest of us into a war in which we don't want to be responsible for the deaths and destruction happening? Can we all blame you if we want to for the ethical dilemma we're in? Or did you not vote for Trump?
you can blame whoever you like; I cannot control your mind or actions...
I said "taken to extremes, everyone is responsible in a way - peripherally at best"
-Imp
OK. Then that means you are responsible as well. Do you feel any pangs of guilt, shame, anger, hopelessness or anything else that would coincide with what many would experience if they were responsible for a war? Or are you satisfied to not only be complicit in the war but also try to discourage others who are opposed to it from speaking out against it? Even perhaps accuse them of being "traitors"?
did Doss do what the guy who gave the order told him to do? or did he do that which he felt morally correct?
-Imp
No, I've got Doss. He's not a problem case.
I'm asking about whether your divide responsibility between the leader and the follower, or blame only the follower.
So if Hitler commanded, and then Himmler did it, then is it solely on Himmler, or does Hitler bear responsibility too, in your view.
ordering a person to do evil is not the same as that person doing evil (as ordered)
the ordering is a different evil...
-Imp
Right. "Not the same," but "a different evil." That's what I would say, too. Both Hitler and Himmler are culpable, if somewhat differently culpable -- one for obeying, and the other for having ordered.
Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Oct 22, 2026 2:01 am
No, I've got Doss. He's not a problem case.
I'm asking about whether your divide responsibility between the leader and the follower, or blame only the follower.
So if Hitler commanded, and then Himmler did it, then is it solely on Himmler, or does Hitler bear responsibility too, in your view.
ordering a person to do evil is not the same as that person doing evil (as ordered)
the ordering is a different evil...
-Imp
Right. "Not the same," but "a different evil." That's what I would say, too. Both Hitler and Himmler are culpable, if somewhat differently culpable -- one for obeying, and the other for having ordered.
Certainly, Himmler ordered many atrocious policies or crimes commanding the SS. Are they not equally culpable? And is a German who's only crime is shooting an "enemy" soldier on the battlefield as guilty as either of those two? Is a German who faces fighting on the battlefield or else execution really responsible for killing an enemy combatant on the battlefield rather than letting that enemy combatant kill him?
ordering a person to do evil is not the same as that person doing evil (as ordered)
the ordering is a different evil...
-Imp
Right. "Not the same," but "a different evil." That's what I would say, too. Both Hitler and Himmler are culpable, if somewhat differently culpable -- one for obeying, and the other for having ordered.
Certainly, Himmler ordered many atrocious policies or crimes commanding the SS. Are they not equally culpable? And is a German who's only crime is shooting an "enemy" soldier on the battlefield as guilty as either of those two? Is a German who faces fighting on the battlefield or else execution really responsible for killing an enemy combatant on the battlefield rather than letting that enemy combatant kill him?
I wouldn't think any of these are equivalent situations. They all have different particulars, so for certain, they have different kinds of culpability.
It doesn't mean that any of them get off, though. We all make our choices.
But you said we're all responsible. Are you now saying that we are not all responsible? Or are you saying that you don't feel guilt even when you're responsible for getting the rest of us into a war in which we don't want to be responsible for the deaths and destruction happening? Can we all blame you if we want to for the ethical dilemma we're in? Or did you not vote for Trump?
you can blame whoever you like; I cannot control your mind or actions...
I said "taken to extremes, everyone is responsible in a way - peripherally at best"
-Imp
OK. Then that means you are responsible as well. Do you feel any pangs of guilt, shame, anger, hopelessness or anything else that would coincide with what many would experience if they were responsible for a war? Or are you satisfied to not only be complicit in the war but also try to discourage others who are opposed to it from speaking out against it? Even perhaps accuse them of being "traitors"?
you can blame whoever you like; I cannot control your mind or actions...
I said "taken to extremes, everyone is responsible in a way - peripherally at best"
-Imp
OK. Then that means you are responsible as well. Do you feel any pangs of guilt, shame, anger, hopelessness or anything else that would coincide with what many would experience if they were responsible for a war? Or are you satisfied to not only be complicit in the war but also try to discourage others who are opposed to it from speaking out against it? Even perhaps accuse them of being "traitors"?
no, that's not what that means
anyone can speak their mind
not everyone has to be an audience
-Imp
Good luck speaking your mind about the Iran war being a just crusade by Trump, then. I'm sorry for being a "traitor."
OK. Then that means you are responsible as well. Do you feel any pangs of guilt, shame, anger, hopelessness or anything else that would coincide with what many would experience if they were responsible for a war? Or are you satisfied to not only be complicit in the war but also try to discourage others who are opposed to it from speaking out against it? Even perhaps accuse them of being "traitors"?
no, that's not what that means
anyone can speak their mind
not everyone has to be an audience
-Imp
Good luck speaking your mind about the Iran war being a just crusade by Trump, then. I'm sorry for being a "traitor."
Will Bouwman wrote: ↑Wed Oct 21, 2026 8:37 pm
Mr Can, part of what makes you delusional is that you hallucinate things...you will not find me complaining that any god is "too forgiving to sinners"; not those specific words, nor any that could be interpreted that way...
You missed a bit:
Will Bouwman wrote: ↑Wed Oct 21, 2026 8:37 pm... by anyone not mad and delusional.
Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Oct 21, 2026 8:50 pmDid you not write:
So a Christian who starts a war is not "an errant and confused person", they're just a person. Three Hail Marys, or whatever propitiations you believe efficacious, will fix that.
(You did, of course.)
(Yes, I did.)
Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Oct 21, 2026 8:50 pmSo you didn't mean to imply any criticism?
Interesting. So now you want me to believe that "a Christian who starts a war" getting "three Hail Mary's or whatever propitiations" to "fix that" is not an implication from you of anything amiss?
Mr Can, that is what people with a sense of humour call a joke. You have gone off on one of your mad rants, completely forgetting the context:
Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sat Oct 17, 2026 2:57 pmDevoid of the bitter language, what you're complaining about is that God might forgive sinners.
I am not complaining about anything a god I do not believe in may or may not do.
Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Oct 21, 2026 8:50 pmWere that so, you'd have an odd moral compass. Usually, starting wars is considered bad, and doing very small gestures and getting away with it would be considered disproportionate to the badness entailed.
WARNING: THE FOLLOWING IS A JOKE.
Disproportionate, Mr Can? From someone who believes eternal torment is appropriate punishment for not believing in the right god, in the right way?
Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Oct 21, 2026 8:50 pmBut you say that's not what you meant? Well, mea culpa.
Will Bouwman wrote: ↑Thu Oct 22, 2026 12:35 pm
I am not complaining about anything a god I do not believe in may or may not do.
So you weren't suggesting that the disconnect you described is in any way problematic?
Okay. No problem, no criticism, and no objection from me. Since you've alleged nothing, I needn't provide any answer. Why would I, since no question is being posed?
