Riots in the city of love

[Gary Childress]

if you pull the trigger or drop the bomb- it is on you...

following orders provides no moral absolution

causalities of war included

-Imp

What about the leader who orders the soldier to drop the bombs. Is that leader responsible for anything?

blame follows the chain of command to a point

the entire chain of command

blame the leader, then the generals, then the lesser commanders all the way down to the squad leader...

in the end, the soldier is responsible for their own actions

-Imp

Fair enough. Donald Trump, Khamenei, part of the American armed forces, and part of the Iranian armed forces are all responsible for all the deaths in the Iran war. Is that correct, then?

So basically they're all responsible? Are we also responsible for paying taxes to fund the war in Iran and/or if a person voted for Trump, who started the war, does that make them responsible too?

[Impenitent]

What about the leader who orders the soldier to drop the bombs. Is that leader responsible for anything?

blame follows the chain of command to a point

the entire chain of command

blame the leader, then the generals, then the lesser commanders all the way down to the squad leader...

in the end, the soldier is responsible for their own actions

-Imp

Fair enough. Donald Trump, Khamenei, part of the American armed forces, and part of the Iranian armed forces are all responsible for all the deaths in the Iran war. Is that correct, then?

So basically they're all responsible? Are we also responsible for paying taxes to fund the war in Iran and/or if a person voted for Trump, who started the war, does that make them responsible too?

taken to extremes, everyone is responsible in a way - peripherally at best

but in the end, the soldier is responsible for their own actions

-Imp

[Gary Childress]

blame follows the chain of command to a point

the entire chain of command

blame the leader, then the generals, then the lesser commanders all the way down to the squad leader...

in the end, the soldier is responsible for their own actions

-Imp

Fair enough. Donald Trump, Khamenei, part of the American armed forces, and part of the Iranian armed forces are all responsible for all the deaths in the Iran war. Is that correct, then?

So basically they're all responsible? Are we also responsible for paying taxes to fund the war in Iran and/or if a person voted for Trump, who started the war, does that make them responsible too?

taken to extremes, everyone is responsible in a way - peripherally at best

but in the end, the soldier is responsible for their own actions

-Imp

So the Bible says thou shalt not kill. Did Alvin York go against God by agreeing to join the US Army and agreeing to go to Europe to fight?

York is famous for being a conscientious objector who finally decided to stick with the Army after reading a passage in the Bible that allegedly showed him that it was OK to fight for one's country because we must "render unto Caesar what is Caesar's.

[Gary Childress]

blame follows the chain of command to a point

the entire chain of command

blame the leader, then the generals, then the lesser commanders all the way down to the squad leader...

in the end, the soldier is responsible for their own actions

-Imp

Fair enough. Donald Trump, Khamenei, part of the American armed forces, and part of the Iranian armed forces are all responsible for all the deaths in the Iran war. Is that correct, then?

So basically they're all responsible? Are we also responsible for paying taxes to fund the war in Iran and/or if a person voted for Trump, who started the war, does that make them responsible too?

taken to extremes, everyone is responsible in a way - peripherally at best

but in the end, the soldier is responsible for their own actions

-Imp

Also, if we are all responsible, is there anything we can do to remove that responsibility, or are those of us who don't want to kill people just screwed by whatever the rest decide?

[Impenitent]

Fair enough. Donald Trump, Khamenei, part of the American armed forces, and part of the Iranian armed forces are all responsible for all the deaths in the Iran war. Is that correct, then?

So basically they're all responsible? Are we also responsible for paying taxes to fund the war in Iran and/or if a person voted for Trump, who started the war, does that make them responsible too?

taken to extremes, everyone is responsible in a way - peripherally at best

but in the end, the soldier is responsible for their own actions

-Imp

So the Bible says thou shalt not kill. Did Alvin York go against God by agreeing to join the US Army and agreeing to go to Europe to fight?

York is famous for being a conscientious objector who finally decided to stick with the Army after reading a passage in the Bible that allegedly showed him that it was OK to fight for one's country because we must "render unto Caesar what is Caesar's.

yes, I am familiar with Sgt. York (Gary Cooper played him well)

gods and storybooks aside, people act as they will act

-Imp

[Impenitent]

Fair enough. Donald Trump, Khamenei, part of the American armed forces, and part of the Iranian armed forces are all responsible for all the deaths in the Iran war. Is that correct, then?

So basically they're all responsible? Are we also responsible for paying taxes to fund the war in Iran and/or if a person voted for Trump, who started the war, does that make them responsible too?

taken to extremes, everyone is responsible in a way - peripherally at best

but in the end, the soldier is responsible for their own actions

-Imp

Also, if we are all responsible, is there anything we can do to remove that responsibility, or are those of us who don't want to kill people just screwed by whatever the rest decide?

it was democratic wasn't it?

-Imp

(and if you want absolution, ask a priest)

[Gary Childress]

taken to extremes, everyone is responsible in a way - peripherally at best

but in the end, the soldier is responsible for their own actions

-Imp

Also, if we are all responsible, is there anything we can do to remove that responsibility, or are those of us who don't want to kill people just screwed by whatever the rest decide?

it was democratic wasn't it?

-Imp

So are people who didn't vote for Trump or who don't pay taxes also responsible for the deaths in the Iran war?

[Immanuel Can]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desmond_Doss

-Imp

I must assume you saw the movie "Hacksaw Ridge"? It's awesome.

So...I'm not sure what you're trying to argue. Can you clear that up for me?

responsibility falls to the soldier

-Imp

Not to the guy who gave the order...at all?

[Impenitent]

Also, if we are all responsible, is there anything we can do to remove that responsibility, or are those of us who don't want to kill people just screwed by whatever the rest decide?

it was democratic wasn't it?

-Imp

So are people who didn't vote for Trump or who don't pay taxes also responsible for the deaths in the Iran war?

guilt is a wonderful tool

-Imp

[Gary Childress]

it was democratic wasn't it?

-Imp

So are people who didn't vote for Trump or who don't pay taxes also responsible for the deaths in the Iran war?

guilt is a wonderful tool

-Imp

That doesn't answer my question: are people who didn't vote for Trump or who don't pay taxes also responsible for the deaths in the Iran War? Are you responsible for the deaths in the Iran War? Or are you not responsible?

[Impenitent]

I must assume you saw the movie "Hacksaw Ridge"? It's awesome.

So...I'm not sure what you're trying to argue. Can you clear that up for me?

responsibility falls to the soldier

-Imp

Not to the guy who gave the order...at all?

did Doss do what the guy who gave the order told him to do? or did he do that which he felt morally correct?

-Imp

[Impenitent]

So are people who didn't vote for Trump or who don't pay taxes also responsible for the deaths in the Iran war?

guilt is a wonderful tool

-Imp

That doesn't answer my question: are people who didn't vote for Trump or who don't pay taxes also responsible for the deaths in the Iran War? Are you responsible for the deaths in the Iran War? Or are you not responsible?

I feel no guilt for things I don't do

I remain impenitent

-Imp

[Immanuel Can]

responsibility falls to the soldier

-Imp

Not to the guy who gave the order...at all?

did Doss do what the guy who gave the order told him to do? or did he do that which he felt morally correct?

-Imp

No, I've got Doss. He's not a problem case.

I'm asking about whether your divide responsibility between the leader and the follower, or blame only the follower.

So if Hitler commanded, and then Himmler did it, then is it solely on Himmler, or does Hitler bear responsibility too, in your view.

[Gary Childress]

guilt is a wonderful tool

-Imp

That doesn't answer my question: are people who didn't vote for Trump or who don't pay taxes also responsible for the deaths in the Iran War? Are you responsible for the deaths in the Iran War? Or are you not responsible?

I feel no guilt for things I don't do

I remain impenitent

-Imp

But you said we're all responsible. Are you now saying that we are not all responsible? Or are you saying that you don't feel guilt even when you're responsible for getting the rest of us into a war in which we don't want to be responsible for the deaths and destruction happening? Can we all blame you if we want to for the ethical dilemma we're in? Or did you not vote for Trump?

[Impenitent]

Not to the guy who gave the order...at all?

did Doss do what the guy who gave the order told him to do? or did he do that which he felt morally correct?

-Imp

No, I've got Doss. He's not a problem case.

I'm asking about whether your divide responsibility between the leader and the follower, or blame only the follower.

So if Hitler commanded, and then Himmler did it, then is it solely on Himmler, or does Hitler bear responsibility too, in your view.

ordering a person to do evil is not the same as that person doing evil (as ordered)

the ordering is a different evil...

-Imp