Christianity

[Age]

I would not accept any event as a miracle.

There it is. That's exactly right. The reason you perceive miracles cannot happen is not intellectual at all, but assumptive. You wish for miracles to be impossible, so you see none as being possible.

Nobody has an objective standard for defining a miracle.

They do, actually. In fact, it's not all that uncommon for people to believe in the possibility of miracles, or to think they recognize one if they see it. The ancient Jews, for example, were quite convinced of the Red Sea crossing, and did not take it to be a natural event. But then, they had criteria for such things. You refuse to have any.

Most of the world is, in some form, religious, and so have some belief in the possibility of miracles. Belief in the possibility of miracles even extends to a great many of the world's most famous scientists, those who understand what science really is and does. Science is not a replacement for miracles: it's a method of studying physical phenomena, particularly limited to those we can observe, can repeat, can manipulate, can measure, and so on. But it's not more than that. It has nothing to say about phenomena that exceed those requirements.

In that sense, science can't even "prove" that much of our real history ever took place. And that's totally aside from any claim of miracles. What it can do is offer indications, evidence of consequences, artifacts left over, and such -- none of which are sufficient to warrant any claim that we have comprehensive knowledge or proof of various past events even having happened. But they're very good indications, though they are not, in the true sense, "scientifically proven" or "demonstrable" in a precise way.

Belief in the supernatural has declined as science has become predominant.

The opposite is actually historically the case: science only came into being because of certain metaphysical commitments unique to the Christian West. This is known as "Whitehead's Thesis," after the philosopher-theologian A.N. Whitehead, who first pointed it out. There are very good reasons why science arose in Christian Europe, and particularly in England, and not in, say, India or China, where there were far more people, many of high intelligence. What they did not have in the East or in Africa were the metaphysical assumptions that made science possible in the first place.

Your have an impressive knowledge of Scripture . If you could see that Scripture may be read as allegory you could remain trustful that God writes the book of Scripture.

I do, in fact, believe that God has written the Scriptures. And I'm very "trustful" of that, and for good reasons. And I believe in both the literal and the allegorical in Scripture, so I've got all the ability to understand that allegorizing offers, but also every advantage of being able to take the literally-intended portions with the seriousness that is suitable to them. So I've got the whole package there.

What the pure-allegorizer, the Jungian, the "higher critic" never has is the ability to hear the literal truth of the Word of God. He's arbitrarily ruled that out for himself, before he begins. Consequently, he not only fails to hear the clear, literal statements, but he also untethers the allegorical from the literal, and thus flies off into the whimsies of his own imagination, like an astronaut whose lost his lifeline to the space capsule.

I don't recommend that exegetical strategy. Before we go allegorizing, we have to be honest about what the text literally says, and govern our allegories and our personal imaginings by directing them to the text. This is what it means to "hear the Word of God," rather than to "hear" only the vacuous delusions of our own imaginations. But far from eliminating allegory, this is the only strategy that makes the allegory truthful.

To "hear with faith" is to believe the literal truth of what God says, even when it is not clear to us yet why He says it, or when it offends our personal preferences and demands the reshaping of our prejudices, or when it exceeds our personal experience of the subject. And those who do not hear with faith never hear God.

"the word of God" is best understood as the creation of God; you seem to limit the word of God to what God says to man.

Nature is cruel and uncaring;

'Nature', Itself, is NOT cruel nor uncaring.

ONLY you human beings 'see' some things as 'cruel' and/or 'uncaring', but the ONLY ACTUAL 'things' that ARE 'cruel' and/or 'uncaring' are you adult human beings, "yourselves".

mankind needs dignity to rise above nature.

NOTHING can so-call 'rise above' Nature, Itself.

From The Ten Commandments to Love Thy Neighbour Whoever They Be

WHO 'they' ARE IS EVERY one.

is collected and edited by men so as to show forth how to rise above nature as dignified humans.

AGAIN, NO thing can 'rise above' 'Nature', Itself, BECAUSE EVERY thing IS A PART OF 'Nature', Itself.

There is NO thing above, beyond, apart from, or outside of 'Nature', Itself, even including God, Itself.

God has a history ranging from the tribal Jahweh and its kings through the OT Prophets, to Jesus of Nazareth , and incorporating Greek thought.

Science grew from early roots in Aristotle, through Copernicus through Galileo, through Darwin. The Church forced Galileo on pain of torture and death to recant. The Church burned to death Giordano Bruno for his pantheist claims. Until Darwin and later science has had to contend with religious dogma. The RC church was political and ruled over Christendom. The Protestant Reformation too had its dogmas that were averse to science and markedly punitive. Read below about the powers of the clergy in medieval Europe :

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estates_of_the_realm

Just about ANY one who does NOT CONFORM TO 'the majority', 'the popular', 'the current', or 'the latest' VIEW, BELIEF, or PERCEPTION is RIDICULED. 'This phenomena' can be CLEARLY SEEN just throughout 'this forum', let alone throughout a lot of human history. And, it NOT MATTERS ONE IOTA if one is NOT CONFORMING TO the "theological religion/ous' or the 'scientific religions/ous'. ALL 'religious people' will 'TRY TO' DISCREDIT, RIDICULE, and/or HUMILIATE 'the other' whenever 'the other' INTRODUCES some thing NEW or MORE, which is DIFFERENT and/or CONTRARY.

'Religious people', by the way, are just 'those' who HAVE or HOLD BELIEFS. Which, by the way, are ALL of you adult human beings.

[attofishpi]

Of course: His mysterious ways. The perfect explanation for things we either don't understand about existence itself or things we do understand [or think we do] that deeply disturb us. We can then just convince ourselves it's all necessary given God's Divine Plan. And since it's assumed that the Christian God is [ultimately] loving, just and merciful, our leap of faith includes the assumption as well that "in the end" we'll be taken care of. And in paradise no less.

Not even close mate.

My theory is that since we arn't the only lifeform that GOD created, and many humans do abhorrent things to other humans to the point that they probably don't get to reincarnate human ever again.

Your theory? What about the part where you intertwine your conjectures and speculations regarding God -- i.e. stuff you believe about Him "in your head" up in the spiritual clouds -- and your own interactions with others in which conflicting goods unfold.

That's a strange ad hominem attack, because later in your post you indicate that you want to hear of anyone of faith that has had experiences of this GOD entity. I have accounted of many since the past 15 years of posting upon this forum, if all you can reflect is what you just posted about me, as if some lofty spiritual cloud is what YOU have comprehended of what i have been stating, well..

I'm just trying to get a sense of how for all practical purposes God and religion play out in your interactions with others existentially. Again, less what you think about them and more what you can demonstrate to others about them such that they might be able to think the same.

..it's in development my friend..via artistic endeavour that this very entity FORCED me out of work to accomplish, if you are honest in your QUEST then allow me, just some random character on the internet, to finalise everything upon my website.

Just prior to a month off for travelling, the past week I am working on "GOD according to Androcies". *Androcies<-- the name, is explained within the document, an account of a mistake I made regarding Anrdocles - anyway, I was happy with my mistake and stuck with it. Androcies is an A.I. within my novel Alpha Two - have a read if you like near future dystopia and tech (cyberpunk).

The opening INTRO sentence to "GOD according to Androcies" is:
This document is intended to encapsulate my experiences since 1997, my analysis of those experiences and the result, my artistic output, here: www.androcies.com endeavours to project my analysis of our shared reality, REAL_IT_Y?

As for reincarnation, it's just more of the same for me. You broach it, make certain assumptions about it and never once offer any substantive/substantial evidence that it is in fact a crucial component of the human condition.

I understand that. With me iambiguous, always at least attempt to have a hypothetical approach as to what I am stating in relation to GOD. That is to say IF GOD exists then X seems rational or perhaps from your POV, no, still non sequitur, oui?

2005 sage indicated shortly after introduction of himself from the aether (covered in "GOD according to Androcies") that we do reincarnate to within families we deserve, karmically. I never quizzed that night about 666 incarnation, but it stands to reason don't you think? Why am I not a pig, but a human - why is the pig a pig and not a human???

666 - again, life is a struggle - if i were to judge someone I know and what he did in comparison to my dog Donnie being able to reincarnate as human, i'd swich their DNA moving forward in time

Uh, yeah, right, of course.

So.

GOD leaves people to their own actions. EVERYONE has been warned at least that there is some consequences to their actions IF GOD exists. (*problem for many is, IT does)

Which God though? Is it one worshipped and adored by any number of these folks -- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_r ... traditions -- or is it ever and always your own?

I think we have already covered this. That GOD has interacted with certain wo/men throughout time and formed various religions. GOD remains unchanged, all that is different is MAN's interpretation of GOD.

This is interesting since a few hours ago a Hindu uber driver stated pretty much the same thing, I was well impressed with him and his analysis.

Regarding 'dasein', such as myself being brought up in a Roman Catholic School via my parents choosing. Yes, I think I was wiser than many of my schoolfriends that thought Christianity/GOD was a load of nonsense. Since, I considered IF there is a GOD, then perhaps it had my soul implanted into this family that would send me to the R.C. school and learn of this GOD entity. Turned out, faith did enable me to know GOD exists.

Okay, back then, how did you go about demonstrating that a God, the God, your God does in fact exist? In other words, beyond a leap of faith or a wager or what you might have read in one or another Scripture.

You are missing the point. Consider things from my intelligent POV. I have just been born into a faith system - at this point what you want is no where to be seen - this 'demostrate a GOD your GOD bla bla' nonsense..

No. The dasein of my existence from an intelligent analytical child mind that I has was merely, IF GOD EXISTS, then there could be great reason I was born within a Christian, R.C. upbringing.

Thus, my analysus began.

Scientists admit that they could not even reproduce the artifact using today's technology.

Wiggle, wiggle, wiggle from my frame of mind.

Don't use 'wiggle wiggle' on me, it pisses me off.

Perhaps I exaggerated since having watched the video, I don't recall all that was stated.

Point being, where are your thoughts per how a 13th Century artifact can contain a negative photographic quality image embedded on cloth such that it contains enough grayscale information to NOW provide a 3D model image of a body in rigor-mortis?

I'm doing no wiggling, I assure U.

And, again, unlike Jesus Christ who "as God in the flesh" was fully aware that Heaven [immortality/salvation] was right around the corner for Him, almost all the rest of us are left grappling with existential leaps of faith or wagers. Also, knowing that there are many, many other religious denominations "out there" who are quite adamant that only their own One True Path counts.

Hey, fellow which ever 'religious denomination' floats your boat so long as your boat is guided by your most rational analysis of something that just might be omnipotent, divine, and the paradox to life-LOVE.

- The world clock ZERO is set to the life/death of CHRIST.
- Christ went to his death stating we "LOVE & TRUST" Him and each other (this is my family crest - v important to me and should be important to all that have FAITH in what HE did to insist upon it)

Comprehend? or too proud?

You want to believe that there is an omnipotent GOD, but scoff at what I know IS plausible with this entity. There is no point to this discussion.

In other words, since I have not come around yet to how you think about this, and you're convinced that I never will...?

Correct. And, more to the point as I stated above, I don't care.

To be contrary to that, would require a vast improvement to your analytical skills, particularly to analysis of ALL of reality for ANOMALIES.

Then, as with me, perhaps, you sustain exchanges like this for...entertainment? Though even here I am ever and always "fractured and fragmented".

What I truly do care about myself is in exploring God and religion with those who argue that what they do believe about them themselves "here and now" goes beyond a leap of faith, a wager or "because it says so in the Bible". They have either had personal experiences with a God, the God or they believe there really is substantive scientific and historical evidence.

Is analysis of cumulative evidence scientific? How many times does a coin need to side, such that the evidence has cumulated enough to convince you - to at LEAST have Faith?

COIN_CIDENCE?

How much.

How about your God?

Why do you say "my God"?

That hypothetical from you POV required again: IF GOD exists, it's all of our GOD.

[Immanuel Can]

"the word of God" is best understood as the creation of God;

No sensible person believes in "created gods."

Nature is cruel and uncaring;

That's what an Atheist has to suppose.

mankind needs dignity to rise above nature.

He also has to know that then man has no "dignity," and is just a beast. And he has to know that man can't "rise above" that, no matter what he tries to do. There's no "up." There's just whatever happens.

[attofishpi]

Nature is cruel and uncaring;

That's what an Atheist has to suppose.

I think more importantly, and I implore any atheist reading this and my posts in future relating to GOD, please consider my points raised from the POV of HYPOTHETICALLY: IF GOD EXISTS...then it follows that X, of course if you disagree then you are welcome to challenge my analysis.

RE: Belinda's statement above, nature and that does include some daft humans, IS sometimes "cruel and uncaring", but that does not mean GOD, as an intelligence that does have ultimate control over qualia pain thresholds within entities of nature, that it does not implement limits to suffering. Thus, GOD is good in that sense.

[Immanuel Can]

RE: Belinda's statement above, nature and that does include some daft humans, IS sometimes "cruel and uncaring", but that does not mean GOD, as an intelligence that does have ultimate control over qualia pain thresholds within entities of nature, that it does not implement limits to suffering. Thus, GOD is good in that sense.

People are very fond of blaming God for what they do, and for what others do to them. But that's free will, and that's sin. Sin doesn't play fair, or leave people alone; and free will means the problems can go in all directions, and regardless of the apparent justice of things.

Where's God in all that? Not forcing people to obey. Not preventing free will from doing what free will wants to do, but setting the terms of final justice, so it can all be sorted out in the future. People don't like that. They want things to be fair right now, and in a way we understand, and as we would deem justice to be. But that's not how a fallen world works, especially with creatures that have their own wills, choices and identities in it. And it's not realism. We often think of what others have done, and much more rarely of what we have done.

For now, things can be very unjust. It takes omniscience to sort it all out in the end.

[attofishpi]

RE: Belinda's statement above, nature and that does include some daft humans, IS sometimes "cruel and uncaring", but that does not mean GOD, as an intelligence that does have ultimate control over qualia pain thresholds within entities of nature, that it does not implement limits to suffering. Thus, GOD is good in that sense.

People are very fond of blaming God for what they do, and for what others do to them. But that's free will, and that's sin. Sin doesn't play fair, or leave people alone; and free will means the problems can go in all directions, and regardless of the apparent justice of things.

Where's God in all that? Not forcing people to obey. Not preventing free will from doing what free will wants to do, but setting the terms of final justice, so it can all be sorted out in the future. People don't like that. They want things to be fair right now, and in a way we understand, and as we would deem justice to be. But that's not how a fallen world works, especially with creatures that have their own wills, choices and identities in it. And it's not realism. We often think of what others have done, and much more rarely of what we have done.

For now, things can be very unjust. It takes omniscience to sort it all out in the end.

I agree with all of that. However, not sure of the context you want me to infer relating to the red bit?

[Immanuel Can]

RE: Belinda's statement above, nature and that does include some daft humans, IS sometimes "cruel and uncaring", but that does not mean GOD, as an intelligence that does have ultimate control over qualia pain thresholds within entities of nature, that it does not implement limits to suffering. Thus, GOD is good in that sense.

People are very fond of blaming God for what they do, and for what others do to them. But that's free will, and that's sin. Sin doesn't play fair, or leave people alone; and free will means the problems can go in all directions, and regardless of the apparent justice of things.

Where's God in all that? Not forcing people to obey. Not preventing free will from doing what free will wants to do, but setting the terms of final justice, so it can all be sorted out in the future. People don't like that. They want things to be fair right now, and in a way we understand, and as we would deem justice to be. But that's not how a fallen world works, especially with creatures that have their own wills, choices and identities in it. And it's not realism. We often think of what others have done, and much more rarely of what we have done.

For now, things can be very unjust. It takes omniscience to sort it all out in the end.

I agree with all of that. However, not sure of the context you want me to infer relating to the red bit?

I only mean that justice is a much more complex and thorough thing than many of us would like to suppose. Some of us, today, seem to think we already know what "justice" would entail, and are rabidly campaigning for it...they think. But everybody getting exactly what he or she deserves is what real justice means; and only Someone who knows everything about everything would have all the pieces of the puzzle, so as to create actual, perfect justice.

To put it bluntly, God is the only one capable of knowing what real "justice" entails, and of creating it.

[attofishpi]

People are very fond of blaming God for what they do, and for what others do to them. But that's free will, and that's sin. Sin doesn't play fair, or leave people alone; and free will means the problems can go in all directions, and regardless of the apparent justice of things.

Where's God in all that? Not forcing people to obey. Not preventing free will from doing what free will wants to do, but setting the terms of final justice, so it can all be sorted out in the future. People don't like that. They want things to be fair right now, and in a way we understand, and as we would deem justice to be. But that's not how a fallen world works, especially with creatures that have their own wills, choices and identities in it. And it's not realism. We often think of what others have done, and much more rarely of what we have done.

For now, things can be very unjust. It takes omniscience to sort it all out in the end.

I agree with all of that. However, not sure of the context you want me to infer relating to the red bit?

I only mean that justice is a much more complex and thorough thing than many of us would like to suppose. Some of us, today, seem to think we already know what "justice" would entail, and are rabidly campaigning for it...they think. But everybody getting exactly what he or she deserves is what real justice means; and only Someone who knows everything about everything would have all the pieces of the puzzle, so as to create actual, perfect justice.

To put it bluntly, God is the only one capable of knowing what real "justice" entails, and of creating it.

Man's "justice"...pathetic. Lock a child rapist/murderer and 'rehabilitate' them - some years later permitted to walk the Earth and repeat such evil.
Nothing compares to what I am aware of with the wrath of this entity.

JUST_ICE, in comparison indeed.

https://www.androcies.com/Images/Art/Justice.jpg

[Belinda]

I agree with all of that. However, not sure of the context you want me to infer relating to the red bit?

I only mean that justice is a much more complex and thorough thing than many of us would like to suppose. Some of us, today, seem to think we already know what "justice" would entail, and are rabidly campaigning for it...they think. But everybody getting exactly what he or she deserves is what real justice means; and only Someone who knows everything about everything would have all the pieces of the puzzle, so as to create actual, perfect justice.

To put it bluntly, God is the only one capable of knowing what real "justice" entails, and of creating it.

Man's "justice"...pathetic. Lock a child rapist/murderer and 'rehabilitate' them - some years later permitted to walk the Earth and repeat such evil.
Nothing compares to what I am aware of with the wrath of this entity.

JUST_ICE, in comparison indeed.

https://www.androcies.com/Images/Art/Justice.jpg

Wrath is not enough, Attofishpi. Since there is no such thing as natural justice we humans have to make this world a place with justice in it. There are a lot of bad people.A lot of ignorant people. Nature itself has just caused a terrible earthquake in Thailand--there is no natural justice.

[Immanuel Can]

Since there is no such thing as natural justice we humans have to make this world a place with justice in it.

Yeah? And how's that been working out for us?

[Belinda]

Since there is no such thing as natural justice we humans have to make this world a place with justice in it.

Yeah? And how's that been working out for us?

The world is constantly changing from moment to moment. We do the best we can, each one of us. I don't think there was ever any promise to make life free from trouble. The thing is to keep trying to make the world a better place, and never despair if you possibly can. It's a weary pilgrimage , as we sing to the God of Bethel.

[attofishpi]

Since there is no such thing as natural justice we humans have to make this world a place with justice in it.

Yeah? And how's that been working out for us?

The world is constantly changing from moment to moment. We do the best we can, each one of us. I don't think there was ever any promise to make life free from trouble. The thing is to keep trying to make the world a better place, and never despair if you possibly can. It's a weary pilgrimage , as we sing to the God of Bethel.

The problem is, the more certain members of Western society become: "GOD is nonsense", the more society evolves into delinquency (*and these people breed more of the same or worse). Gangs, murders, rapes - hey, there's no GOD

[Belinda]

Yeah? And how's that been working out for us?

The world is constantly changing from moment to moment. We do the best we can, each one of us. I don't think there was ever any promise to make life free from trouble. The thing is to keep trying to make the world a better place, and never despair if you possibly can. It's a weary pilgrimage , as we sing to the God of Bethel.

The problem is, the more certain members of Western society become: "GOD is nonsense", the more society evolves into delinquency (*and these people breed more of the same or worse). Gangs, murders, rapes - hey, there's no GOD

Yes, well, how you know these are bad, is because you already have the idea that good exists. Good is what we call God.

[attofishpi]

The world is constantly changing from moment to moment. We do the best we can, each one of us. I don't think there was ever any promise to make life free from trouble. The thing is to keep trying to make the world a better place, and never despair if you possibly can. It's a weary pilgrimage , as we sing to the God of Bethel.

The problem is, the more certain members of Western society become: "GOD is nonsense", the more society evolves into delinquency (*and these people breed more of the same or worse). Gangs, murders, rapes - hey, there's no GOD

Yes, well, how you know these are bad, is because you already have the idea that good exists. Good is what we call God.

Well, when I mention "WRATH of GOD" - I could never explain the level of suffering this entity of "love" forced me to endure, I have never hated an intelligent being so much, even the word hate falls far short of the mark.

The reason for DO_U_BT where GOD is concerned comes back imo to entropy, and judgement within. 666 is the judgement for some.

When GOD had me bashed with a baseball bat one night (*that morning I had heard "Tonight bad luck") - these delinquents had stolen my mob ph.

This was Nov 13 2005 - left hospital early perhaps 17th Nov, since no longer getting morphine I went home, screw up with pharmacy script, in agony all night. Sage introduced himself the night i was in total agony - pins and wires in my left elbow - not so funny bone.
<---none of that was even close to the mental torture a being with entire access to every synapse can inflict, and this endured for 3 month stints of HELL. comprehend a little better now?

The new mobile ph: xxx 007-666-x (*I have the licence to kill, and am a marked man) <-- however, I asked sage/GOD whether I am to be reincarnated as beast - apparently not. Seems the life of Brian has some other reason for all this crap..

A car some houses down the road has number plate: WHY 666
That is a standard Australian RANDOM number plate, not a personalised paid for one. This entity wants me to consider REASONING for these matters..

[Immanuel Can]

Since there is no such thing as natural justice we humans have to make this world a place with justice in it.

Yeah? And how's that been working out for us?

The world is constantly changing from moment to moment. We do the best we can, each one of us.

That's not good enough for "justice." Real "justice" has to get the equation right, and make everything fair. If it doesn't, it's just another form of injustice...maybe a smug and self-satisified one, but injustice nonetheless.