Christianity

[iambiguous]

On your point 1, I see human interactions remaining meaningful and purposeful in a "NO GOD" world.

Existential meaning? Yeah, it's everywhere. But my point revolves instead around an essential meaning such that all of these folks...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_r ... traditions
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_p ... ideologies
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_s ... philosophy

...are finally able to agree on a one-size-fits-all universal meaning.

None of that matters whether GOD does or doesn't exist - the conversations remain the same, on the point of GOD, some are wrong and some are right, all without knowing either way whether they are correct -- woopee doo.

Yeah, some are actually able to convince themselves of this. And that's what makes it true. And in believing it they sustain some measure of comfort and consolation. They're more than just "an infinitesimally tiny speck of existence in the vastness of all there is". Instead, they can simply anchor their precious Selves to whatever they can believe.

And Christian conversations about all this are one thing, being able to demonstrate that what they believe here about God, another thing altogether.

On your point 2, in a "NO GOD" world I see the world devolving into delinquency, gang-banging, rape, murder etc increasing - via NO FAITH.

First, we'll need to run this by IC's omnipotent God to find out why He does absolutely squat regarding those things.

I know GOD to be omnipotent to our reality. To state as you do with any ounce of certainty that GOD does squat regarding such things is extremely arrogant and I will add, short of sight.

I'm considerbly less interested in what you think you know about this "in your head", and considerly more interested in what you can in fact establish empirically and experientially such that all rational men and women would be obligated to believe the same. Why? Because of all that is at stake now and then if the Christian God does in fact exist.

As for what this omniscient and omnipotent God will or will not do, the most arrogant among us are those who insist that they and only they really are able to know this because they and only they are on the One True Path.

Their own God or you're doomed.

See how this settles within your lack of comprehension of GOD: A man takes a child, rapes, murders the child. In the reality that the child exists, NONE of that happened. In the reality of the evil paedophile - all of that happened - he will be judged to be born as a beast, perhaps for the rest of Earth's entropy. Police investigate the incident - all of which is 'virtual' - they never catch the evil character, or they do - either way - matters not.

Actually, this is the sort of thing I'd expect from those like AGE here. It's all basically gibberish to me. And all I can do is to ask you or others to note how "for all practical purposes" it is applicable to the behaviors that you or they choose.

Just Google "child abuse around the globe": https://www.google.com/search?q=child+a ... URT-reRWmz
https://www.unicef.org/health/childhood-diseases
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC6637963/

So, here's this all-knowing and all-powerful Christian God who is said to be loving, just and merciful, fully aware of what is unfolding with the children down here. Fully aware of the ghastly, agonizing, heartbreaking pain and suffering that truly innocent children endure daily around the world, and he does, well, if not squat, then what?

From what i have witnessed of omnipotence since 1997 - much of what we PERCEIVE of evil things happening COULD be mmm, fake, not real. Thank GOD.

Okay, let's go back to this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lists_of_earthquakes
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_l ... _eruptions
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_t ... l_cyclones
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_tsunamis
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_landslides
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fires
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_epidemics
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_deadliest_floods
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_t ... ore_deaths
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lists_of_diseases
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_extinction_events

What's real and what's fake above?

On your point 3, I myself have prayed many times over the past 28 years of experience of GOD to indeed, be granted to be dead for the rest of eternity - such is the suffering this entity made me endure. Truly to this day, I don't see much problem with oblivion for eternity - it's just a sleep that one doesn't wake from, big deal. (*and I don't care about being forgotten by those that still walk on their soles)

Imagine this....

With each new catastrophic natural disaster, you go there to remind others of this. See how many pat you on the back, thanking you for bringing that to their attention.

Of course, any number of men and women accept what they are told about God here because the only alternative is to glumly, grimly believe that..."shit happens"?

I don't see what your point is. TO be honest, I have never heard anyone in all the years I have been posting on this forum post that they have suffered terribly from a natural disaster.

So, what are you suggesting, that the "acts of God" above are readily put into perspective by you because no one that you know here ever had to endure a natural disaster?

We (in the most part) have things pretty good. If you wish to focus on all the negative stuff that happens around the world, and of course then blame GOD, well that is your decision, but it is not particularly wise and is extremely short of sight as to what is actually PLAUSIBLE where an omnipotent GOD is concerned during n after a natural disaster.

Note to others:

What is he/she concluding here...that it is not at all reasonable to blame the Christian God for what are called "acts of God". Assuming of course that He actually does exist. In other words, if He does, He created Earth as He did.

Start here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_n ... death_toll

And, sure, if you are able to note the death counts here and still manage to sweep it all under the "God works in mysterious ways" rug, then that's what you believe. And if you believe something that may be all that matters in the end.

Man never invented the Abrahamic GOD - the Jews were made aware, then Christ came along and some came to real eyes he's the dude. Forget Islam.

Which just reminds us that the God of Abraham is worshipped and adored by Christians, Muslims and Jews. Then the part where come Judgment Day, Jews and Muslims will be expected to accept Jesus Christ as their savior.

Busllshit.

Really? How so?

Come on, either those like IC here are entirely correct in asserting that only those who accept Jesus Christ as their personal savior can be saved, or that is bullshit.

That's basically why I react to IC as I do. He tells you that the Christian God does in fact exist and that beyond leaps of faith and wagers there is substantive and substantial "historical and scientific" confirming this.

But he refuses to explore that evidence with me.

Mmm, I've been planning on starting a detailed thread, based on my analysis of GOD since 1997 - the contents of which most Christians would consider heresy!

Maybe, maybe not. But the only thing I would be truly interested in exploring myself is not what you believe as encompassed in a world of words -- analytically? -- but what you can demonstrate empirically, experientially and experimentally by connecting the dots between what you do believe analytically and how, as a consequence, you behave.

And just as you might see others who do not share your convictions as risking doom, so they are thinking exactly the same thing about you.

Of course, that's the part IC just shrugs off by insisting all the other religious denominations are just plain wrong. As are all those who worship multiple Gods or those who choose spiritual pathways that involve no Gods at all.

There can only be One True Path to moral commandments, immortality and salvation. And what are the odds it is your own? And, again, that's not even counting all the Gods "out there" given the staggering vastness of the universe.

If you want my best opinion re WHICH religion is THE religion to engage with per GOD.

Yes, I'd say Christ is the KEY. The man went to his death stating to all to love and respect each other. If that doesn't inspire FAITH - in LOVE & TRUST towards each other - KEY to what I would consider DIVINE, then nothing else should!!

Again and again, like hundreds of other religious denominations down through the ages,
they have their own rendition of that. And all the ones that still do.

The 'miracles' accounted for throughout his life are plausible when you understand that GOD operates from below the Planck scale (*OK that's a personal belief of mine based on the countless miracles I have witnessed)

Note the most impactful miracles that you have personally witnessed. Did you record any of them so that you could share them with others? Do you have other ways in which provide us with evidence that miracles are the real deal?

..and you would likely scoff at the evidence (granted CUMULATIVE) that I provide since analysing our entire reality AFTER GOD started interacting with me in 1997.

Okay, sure, tell me about that. And did you perchance happen to record these interactions with God and upload them on YouTube? No? How about the next one then.

What actual evidence can you provide us with that this happened? And there is simply no way I would scoff at evidence that make my three points above go away.

Though many here scoff at my own insistence that I want to be saved.

What do you mean 'saved'?

Well, this works for me: "The Bible clearly teaches that the moment a person turns from his sin and trusts in Jesus to be forgiven of his sin, he is saved (Acts 2:37-41). He has passed from spiritual death to spiritual life (John 5:24) and has been declared not guilty in God's court of law (Rom 3:21-26)."

Then the part where it all plays out on Judgment Day.

Which one or more of these are you implying?:-

A) hey I want to have eternal life as a human. Well, does that mean reincarnating each time - all memories of your former life wiped, having to learn all over again...and again....and again...etc..

Again, what does reincarnation have to do with Christianity?

B) hey, I want this heaven thing where my life and knowledge continues, I can hang out with the sages and Christ and continue to learn about the universe in total protection from - stuff like, natural disasters!

What I emphasize, however, is not what my fate might be after I die [and there is a Christian God], but what I might be able to finally transcend given the existence of any God: a fractured and fragmented moral philosophy, an essentially meaningless and purposeless existence, oblivion.

C) hey, I dont want to burn in hell!

Then straight back to those like IC making it absolutely clear that there is really only one way to prevent it: being born again.

As I pointed out to IC, the fund_a_mental_list approach to the buy bull is rather daft. For one thing, Christ was constantly reprehending his disciples for not quite comprehending his message(s) - thus, although the Gospels were my favourite reading material within the Bible, we should still think with critical minds about the contents that these followers of Christ inscribed.

Right, critical thinking. On the other hand, what of those who genuinely, sincerely introspect about all this, but are just not able to accept that Christianity is the only One True Path to immortality and salvation.

Then, in my view, you are straight back to posting things like this...

I think I mentioned earlier (*yes another personal account) that fairly recently, just last year when I had not even eaten of the Tree of Know_Ledge, that GOD put me to the test over a period of a couple of weeks - whilst I was renovating my bathroom - wow, it was rather difficult just to do that. During the 'tests' I came to the conclusion, yet again, that NO sentient being literally burns in HELL. Finally, the TEST stopped, and the voice of GOD stated something more profound than "you are a good Christian" - I won't state what was actually said - but elevate that some (Brian is meek believe it or not)

...as though merely believing it need be as far as one goes.

[Fairy]

Age wrote:

If 'the experience' of 'touching' some thing, or of 'smelling' some thing, is, supposedly, NOT 'a sensation' in 'the body', itself, then WHERE IS 'the sensation', EXACTLY?

The sensation, is simply data coming from within the nearest black hole to our galaxy, that information is being projected onto the event horizon where our avatar bodies are receiving the data.

That’s where the sensation is, exactly.

Sensation is nothing but data, information, invisible, illusory, but appearing as if real.

[attofishpi]

--- WOOPS ---

[Fairy]

HAL LIE FUCK IN LIEU YA !!

[Belinda]

Acta Pilate (Letter of Pilate to Caesar about Jesus, His Crucifixion & Resurrection) - ARCHKO VOL.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nQUJGce ... ex=30&t=0s


Shroud of Turin – Dr John Campbell
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YT1R2kDPHFA&t=0s

Sum them both up in 25 words or less such that I'll be so impressed I'd be willing to watch them.

Have you watched these two extremely important videos?

Again, it's not me that is searching for the truth with regards to any religion - I got my answers via faith, then gnosis since 1997.

If you are serious about your search, you'd watch those videos.

Then, I will bother to address the rest of your above post, FAIR?

Atto, that is a fair offer from Iambiguous. Precis the video so we know what it is about. (Do you know how to abstract a theme?)Your unsound arguments to date don't motivate me to watch a video which you recommend.

You need to read more. I recommend Great Expectations by Charles Dickens. Borrow a full and unexpurgated edition. He writes unpretentious English and this will rub off on you as you enjoy the story. Some main characters, especially the escaped convict, use a few dialect words and there are some unusual spellings but you would quickly get used to those.

The trick is to read only one or two pages at first until you get used to reading a big book, and read more as you want to know what happens in the story.

This may seem strange advice from me. Reading is not simply knowing what the written word stands for. Reading is not only understanding the written words, reading also having a sort of mental conversation with the author so that you sympathise with or feel curious about the characters, and feel angry, or sad ,or amused by what happens.

Oddly enough, academic philosophy is not good for honing discussion skills. Euclid is better reading material for precise, concise, and explicit use of English.

The video Letter from Pilate----- is alleged to be a primary source. If it's indeed authentic its interpretation would need a trained historian. I am trying to read such a book at present by a professional historian and it is heavy going for me. One of its most difficult chapters is about how gentiles , including the Roman emperor and his deputies , regarded Christians and the whole idea of a Jew as King.

[attofishpi]

Sum them both up in 25 words or less such that I'll be so impressed I'd be willing to watch them.

Have you watched these two extremely important videos?

Again, it's not me that is searching for the truth with regards to any religion - I got my answers via faith, then gnosis since 1997.

If you are serious about your search, you'd watch those videos.

Then, I will bother to address the rest of your above post, FAIR?

Atto, that is a fair offer from Iambiguous. Precis the video so we know what it is about. (Do you know how to abstract a theme?)Your unsound arguments to date don't motivate me to watch a video which you recommend.

My unsound arguments? You mean, the one you immediately pulled out of once the penny dropped that your comprehension of language etymology wasn't going to assist/support you against my argument.

You need to read more. I recommend Great Expectations by Charles Dickens. Borrow a full and unexpurgated edition. He writes clear English and this will rub off on you as you enjoy the story. Some main characters, especially the escaped convict, use a few dialect words and there are some unusual spellings but you would quickly get used to those.

I agree that I need to read more FICTION. I've read plenty of factual books, mostly on science stuff - but tend to watch documentaries more often of late. I’ve got about 10 hours to kill in Singapore airport, maybe I’ll get started there. Dicken’s is amazing and I love the time period/location, but admittidly I’ve only watched films based on his books, not Great Expectations tho.

The trick is to read only one or two pages at first until you get used to reading a big book and as you want to read more about what happens in the story.

Oh, I don't know, does it have pictures? I feel an eyes roll emoti would be appropriate but condescending.


Since you've recommended a fiction novel, I'd like to recommend "Massive - The Higgs Boson and the Greatest Hunt in science. by Ian Sample" This was published after CERN's discovery of the Higgs boson, an easy to read book with a lot of historical content. It explores the physicists' journey in uncovering this remarkable and fundamentally important particle/field, which plays a crucial role in how other particles acquire mass.

This may seem strange advice from me. Reading is not simply knowing what the written word stands for; reading is not only understanding the written words, reading also having a sort of mental conversation with the author so that you sympathise with or feel curious about the characters, and feel angry, or sad ,or amused by what happens.

Believe it or not, almost every fiction book I have read I have thoroughly enjoyed for those reasons. Just because I have not formally studied philosophy and often openly admit this, does not mean I am intellectually inferior. But I don't think that is the point you are making, you are insisting I am crap at getting my argument across because I am rather average at English communication. I do hope you are not basing this solely on stuff like real eyes and HELL owe..etc..(*I've made my reasons for that 'speak' fairly clear by now).

As far as I am concerned, the most important thing to any philosophical understanding, is knowing how to apply LOGIC to the knowledge one has gained. Unfortunately, there are a lot of people on this forum that are clearly incapable of that. In fact, it appears the ones that always bang on about the 'greats' of philosophy, as if knowing something about what some great philosopher has contemplated/concluded gives this forum poster some elevated standing - these are the pretentious ones of very little intellect. There is one currently thread spamming all over the place.


Acta Pilate (Letter of Pilate to Caesar about Jesus, His Crucifixion & Resurrection) - ARCHKO VOL.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nQUJGce ... ex=30&t=0s

The video Letter from Pilate----- is alleged to be a primary source. If it's indeed authentic its interpretation would need a trained historian. I am trying to read such a book at present by a professional historian and it is heavy going for me. One of its most difficult chapters is about how gentiles , including the Roman emperor and his deputies , regarded Christians and the whole idea of a Jew as King.

I admit, I hadn't done any research to the authenticity of the letter but loved the content within the video.

GPT just told me it's bollocks (woops) not authentic.

The so-called Letter of Pontius Pilate to Tiberius Caesar regarding Jesus' crucifixion and resurrection is not considered an authentic historical document. There are various apocryphal writings attributed to Pontius Pilate, including letters and reports to the Roman Emperor, but these are widely regarded by scholars as later Christian fabrications rather than genuine Roman records.

Key Points:

• [1] No Historical Evidence – There is no verified Roman record of Pilate writing to Caesar about Jesus.
  [2] Apocryphal Writings – Several texts, such as the Acts of Pilate (Gospel of Nicodemus) and Letters of Pilate to Tiberius, emerged centuries after Jesus’ time, often with theological motives.
  [3] Early Christian Accounts – Church fathers like Tertullian (c. 200 AD) mentioned that Tiberius received reports about Jesus, but no official Roman documents confirming this have been found.
  [4] The Bible's Record – The Gospels and Acts provide the primary biblical narrative of Jesus' trial, crucifixion, and resurrection but do not mention any letter from Pilate to Caesar.

Belinda, I’d hope although you decided to ignore my other question some time ago relating to the natural roots of two words (and their logical connection), that you’d at least answer the other question, this one:

Attofishpi wrote:

My point being, and as you may have noticed, I use the term KEY words. These words imo have been manipulated through the minds of men unbeknownst to them by this underlying intelligence (GOD) into their current form.

This is the main cause of our disagreement. Simply, I don't believe in that sort of God. I.e. the sort of God who intervenes in history.

Am i correct to infer that you believe in some form of GOD? A spinozan form perhaps?

[attofishpi]

---GIVE ME SOME EVIDENCE OF GOD, PLEASE!!---

Shroud of Turin – Dr John Campbell
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YT1R2kDPHFA&t=0s

Sum them both up in 25 words or less such that I'll be so impressed I'd be willing to watch them.

Buck 25 words, have it:

The shroud is purported to be the burial shroud of Christ. It is 14 feet long and enveloped his entire body.

The image appears to have been radiated upon the shroud and isn't from the causal affect of there being a human within. That is what people would originally believe through the ages.

The image having been formed via some apparent radiation effect has little to do with us considering that a human body could cause such a thing!

The image is as a photographic negative. This was formed long before cameras were invented and provide such an image.

The grayscale information embedded has enough detail for scientists NOW to generate a 3 dimensional model of the body in rigor mortis (*using tech developed by NASA to map contours from 2D grayscale images of planetary bodies).

The radio carbon dating had the shroud at around the 15Century - as a forgery - repairs to the shroud after a fire caused damage to the shroud had taken place around that date, hence the sample taken was unlikely to be from the original section of the shroud.

Even IF the shroud was a 15Century forgery - scientists admit we couldn't recreate the grayscale information that is embedded as the image even with todays tech.

The video is worth watching in it's entirety - no bias imo.

PS: there was some laser analysis new tech for dating of the sample that does have indicators of around 2000 years old.

[iambiguous]

Naples on high alert: Supervolcano threat raises concerns
Story by AWWA at MSN

"An Italian expert warns of a possible supervolcano eruption in Naples. Are we prepared for such a disaster?

"The Naples region in Italy regularly experiences earthquakes. Beneath the surface of the land and sea lies a massive supervolcano covering an area of 77 square miles. Giuseppe Mastrolorenzo, a volcanologist from the National Institute of Geophysics and Volcanology (INGV), warns that the volcano could erupt at any moment, without warning."

What might God be thinking now? Will it erupt? Also, before or after the Yellowstone supervolcano?

And what sets these "acts of God" apart from all others is that they can lead to actual extinction events.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fEA89CO1KKQ
https://youtu.be/jo-HWDzjF3Q?si=kC3Z8InqvaPvFKib

The horror! The horror!

[attofishpi]

I recommend Great Expectations by Charles Dickens. Borrow a full and unexpurgated edition. He writes clear English and this will rub off on you as you enjoy the story. Some main characters, especially the escaped convict, use a few dialect words and there are some unusual spellings but you would quickly get used to those.

BELINDA!! Online, I hath but now joined membership to a Library, and they possess manifold copies of the very book thou speakest of!

The Library doth stand beside the shopping centre whereunto I was minded to go upon the day past, and ere long shall I hold a copy of Great Expectations within mine own hands.

IF the book blithers on in a similar wording to that, I shall post it from Singapore forthwith barely read for prompt return to the Library.

Kidding, I actually like ye olde English.

[Belinda]

Have you watched these two extremely important videos?

Again, it's not me that is searching for the truth with regards to any religion - I got my answers via faith, then gnosis since 1997.

If you are serious about your search, you'd watch those videos.

Then, I will bother to address the rest of your above post, FAIR?

Atto, that is a fair offer from Iambiguous. Precis the video so we know what it is about. (Do you know how to abstract a theme?)Your unsound arguments to date don't motivate me to watch a video which you recommend.

My unsound arguments? You mean, the one you immediately pulled out of once the penny dropped that your comprehension of language etymology wasn't going to assist/support you against my argument.

You need to read more. I recommend Great Expectations by Charles Dickens. Borrow a full and unexpurgated edition. He writes clear English and this will rub off on you as you enjoy the story. Some main characters, especially the escaped convict, use a few dialect words and there are some unusual spellings but you would quickly get used to those.

I agree that I need to read more FICTION. I've read plenty of factual books, mostly on science stuff - but tend to watch documentaries more often of late. I’ve got about 10 hours to kill in Singapore airport, maybe I’ll get started there. Dicken’s is amazing and I love the time period/location, but admittidly I’ve only watched films based on his books, not Great Expectations tho.

The trick is to read only one or two pages at first until you get used to reading a big book and as you want to read more about what happens in the story.

Oh, I don't know, does it have pictures? I feel an eyes roll emoti would be appropriate but condescending.


Since you've recommended a fiction novel, I'd like to recommend "Massive - The Higgs Boson and the Greatest Hunt in science. by Ian Sample" This was published after CERN's discovery of the Higgs boson, an easy to read book with a lot of historical content. It explores the physicists' journey in uncovering this remarkable and fundamentally important particle/field, which plays a crucial role in how other particles acquire mass.

This may seem strange advice from me. Reading is not simply knowing what the written word stands for; reading is not only understanding the written words, reading also having a sort of mental conversation with the author so that you sympathise with or feel curious about the characters, and feel angry, or sad ,or amused by what happens.

Believe it or not, almost every fiction book I have read I have thoroughly enjoyed for those reasons. Just because I have not formally studied philosophy and often openly admit this, does not mean I am intellectually inferior. But I don't think that is the point you are making, you are insisting I am crap at getting my argument across because I am rather average at English communication. I do hope you are not basing this solely on stuff like real eyes and HELL owe..etc..(*I've made my reasons for that 'speak' fairly clear by now).

As far as I am concerned, the most important thing to any philosophical understanding, is knowing how to apply LOGIC to the knowledge one has gained. Unfortunately, there are a lot of people on this forum that are clearly incapable of that. In fact, it appears the ones that always bang on about the 'greats' of philosophy, as if knowing something about what some great philosopher has contemplated/concluded gives this forum poster some elevated standing - these are the pretentious ones of very little intellect. There is one currently thread spamming all over the place.


Acta Pilate (Letter of Pilate to Caesar about Jesus, His Crucifixion & Resurrection) - ARCHKO VOL.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nQUJGce ... ex=30&t=0s

The video Letter from Pilate----- is alleged to be a primary source. If it's indeed authentic its interpretation would need a trained historian. I am trying to read such a book at present by a professional historian and it is heavy going for me. One of its most difficult chapters is about how gentiles , including the Roman emperor and his deputies , regarded Christians and the whole idea of a Jew as King.

I admit, I hadn't done any research to the authenticity of the letter but loved the content within the video.

GPT just told me it's bollocks (woops) not authentic.

The so-called Letter of Pontius Pilate to Tiberius Caesar regarding Jesus' crucifixion and resurrection is not considered an authentic historical document. There are various apocryphal writings attributed to Pontius Pilate, including letters and reports to the Roman Emperor, but these are widely regarded by scholars as later Christian fabrications rather than genuine Roman records.

Key Points:

• [1] No Historical Evidence – There is no verified Roman record of Pilate writing to Caesar about Jesus.
  [2] Apocryphal Writings – Several texts, such as the Acts of Pilate (Gospel of Nicodemus) and Letters of Pilate to Tiberius, emerged centuries after Jesus’ time, often with theological motives.
  [3] Early Christian Accounts – Church fathers like Tertullian (c. 200 AD) mentioned that Tiberius received reports about Jesus, but no official Roman documents confirming this have been found.
  [4] The Bible's Record – The Gospels and Acts provide the primary biblical narrative of Jesus' trial, crucifixion, and resurrection but do not mention any letter from Pilate to Caesar.

Belinda, I’d hope although you decided to ignore my other question some time ago relating to the natural roots of two words (and their logical connection), that you’d at least answer the other question, this one:

Attofishpi wrote:

My point being, and as you may have noticed, I use the term KEY words. These words imo have been manipulated through the minds of men unbeknownst to them by this underlying intelligence (GOD) into their current form.

This is the main cause of our disagreement. Simply, I don't believe in that sort of God. I.e. the sort of God who intervenes in history.

Am i correct to infer that you believe in some form of GOD? A spinozan form perhaps?

Attofishpi, you are two separate personas.

I believe in a form of God. The form of God I believe in is :

* what exists is a coherent system .

* humans may never understand the whole of the coherent system, but there are wise men such as Copernicus, Jesus, Buddha, Nietzsche, Higgs, Spinoza, and many others who delineate ways we may harmonise with reality.

[iambiguous]

CNN: "After decades of searching, astronomers have uncovered some of the strongest evidence yet of exoplanets orbiting Barnard’s Star, the nearest single star system to Earth. The four planets are classified as sub-Earths because each one is about 19% to 34% the mass of Earth, according to new research."

I was also reading an MSN account of this. It was noted that Barnard's star is "only 6 light years away" from our own solar system.

That's all?

On the other hand...

6 light years = 56,764,382,835,484,800 miles = 1,416,531,670 trips around the equator here on planet Earth.

So, staggering distances like this always seem to bring me back around to pondering..."which came first, God or the laws of matter?"

Or, perhaps, given the enormous size of the universe, there are multiple Gods...one for each Galaxy?

[attofishpi]

Attofishpi, you are two separate personas.

How so? ..this could go either way.

I believe in a form of God. The form of God I believe in is :

* what exists is a coherent system .

<edit>
Is this coherent GOD system such that it has the quality of being an intelligence that can reason and comprehend the universe, comprehend itself?

* humans may never understand the whole of the coherent system, but there are wise men such as Copernicus, Jesus, Buddha, Nietzsche, Higgs, Spinoza, and many others who delineate ways we may harmonise with reality.

I agree. Obviously the most unique, especially to me as a Christian (* unique form in my own right) is Jesus.

[attofishpi]

So, staggering distances like this always seem to bring me back around to pondering..."which came first, God or the laws of matter?"

Or, perhaps, given the enormous size of the universe, there are multiple Gods...one for each Galaxy?

Me thinks you pinched those ideas from me..at least the second one! Maybe subconsciously via a read a long time ago, or perhaps we are starting to align some of our thoughts...so watch out!

[iambiguous]

Just for the record...

I posted my own in depth reaction to attofishpi above. He or she then simply ignored all of the points I raised in order to focus entirely on the Shroud of Turin.

Now, that would seem to reflect one of two possible explanations:

1] my arguments are defective; they are simply not worth him or her responding to them at all
2] my arguments are keen; he or she has no effective rebuttal for them...so let's move on

Shroud of Turin – Dr John Campbell
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YT1R2kDPHFA&t=0s

Sum them both up in 25 words or less such that I'll be so impressed I'd be willing to watch them.

Buck 25 words, have it:

The shroud is purported to be the burial shroud of Christ. It is 14 feet long and enveloped his entire body.

The image appears to have been radiated upon the shroud and isn't from the causal affect of there being a human within. That is what people would originally believe through the ages.

The image having been formed via some apparent radiation effect has little to do with us considering that a human body could cause such a thing!

The image is as a photographic negative. This was formed long before cameras were invented and provide such an image.

The grayscale information embedded has enough detail for scientists NOW to generate a 3 dimensional model of the body in rigor mortis (*using tech developed by NASA to map contours from 2D grayscale images of planetary bodies).

The radio carbon dating had the shroud at around the 15Century - as a forgery - repairs to the shroud after a fire caused damage to the shroud had taken place around that date, hence the sample taken was unlikely to be from the original section of the shroud.

Even IF the shroud was a 15Century forgery - scientists admit we couldn't recreate the grayscale information that is embedded as the image even with todays tech.

The video is worth watching in it's entirety - no bias imo.

PS: there was some laser analysis new tech for dating of the sample that does have indicators of around 2000 years old.

https://www.google.com/search?q=shroud+ ... no_sw_cr=1

Okay, the Shroud of Turin, "a linen cloth bearing the image of a man" is the actual burial cloth of Jesus Christ. I mean, sure, if the cumulative evidence was such that there was no controversy at all regarding its authenticity that would certainly impress me. But then back to the part where, okay, the Christian God is in fact the Creator of all things.

Including these things:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lists_of_earthquakes
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_l ... _eruptions
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_t ... l_cyclones
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_tsunamis
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_landslides
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fires
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_epidemics
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_deadliest_floods
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_t ... ore_deaths
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lists_of_diseases
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_extinction_events

[attofishpi]

Just for the record...

I posted my own in depth reaction to attofishpi above.

Oh, you have an audience! Well good for you.

He or she then simply ignored all of the points I raised in order to focus entirely on the Shroud of Turin.

Shroud of Turin – Dr John Campbell
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YT1R2kDPHFA&t=0s

Yes, the shroud of Turin is THE most important artifact of physical proof of anything pertaining to a miracle. Thus, of such importance to your quest for evidence of GOD, especially the Christian GOD - that I insisted you watch it prior to my reply to your earlier post.

Now, that would seem to reflect one of two possible explanations:

1] my arguments are defective; they are simply not worth him or her responding to them at all
2] my arguments are keen; he or she has no effective rebuttal for them...so let's move on

No, see above (the red bit)

Sum them both up in 25 words or less such that I'll be so impressed I'd be willing to watch them.

Buck 25 words, have it:

The shroud is purported to be the burial shroud of Christ. It is 14 feet long and enveloped his entire body.

The image appears to have been radiated upon the shroud and isn't from the causal affect of there being a human within. That is what people would originally believe through the ages.

The image having been formed via some apparent radiation effect has little to do with us considering that a human body could cause such a thing!

The image is as a photographic negative. This was formed long before cameras were invented and provide such an image.

The grayscale information embedded has enough detail for scientists NOW to generate a 3 dimensional model of the body in rigor mortis (*using tech developed by NASA to map contours from 2D grayscale images of planetary bodies).

The radio carbon dating had the shroud at around the 15Century - as a forgery - repairs to the shroud after a fire caused damage to the shroud had taken place around that date, hence the sample taken was unlikely to be from the original section of the shroud.

Even IF the shroud was a 15Century forgery - scientists admit we couldn't recreate the grayscale information that is embedded as the image even with todays tech.

The video is worth watching in it's entirety - no bias imo.

PS: there was some laser analysis new tech for dating of the sample that does have indicators of around 2000 years old.

Okay, the Shroud of Turin, "a linen cloth bearing the image of a man" is the actual burial cloth of Jesus Christ. I mean, sure, if the cumulative evidence was such that there was no controversy at all regarding its authenticity that would certainly impress me.

If you watched the video and noted the key findings from the scientific analysis as I expressed above, you'd comprehend that it's mere existence is a miracle. Scientists admit that they could not even reproduce the artifact using today's technology.

But then back to the part where, okay, the Christian God is in fact the Creator of all things.

Including these things:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lists_of_earthquakes
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_l ... _eruptions
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_t ... l_cyclones
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_tsunamis
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_landslides
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fires
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_epidemics
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_deadliest_floods
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_t ... ore_deaths
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lists_of_diseases
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_extinction_events

GOD creates planet Earth, set it in motion.

A planet by its nature of mass creates great heat within its core and mantle, such that the cooler parts, the crust where we all hang out, sits floating upon this magma. The outer area of the planet know as the atmosphere is gaseous and also subject to natural causal forces, they provide weather patterns.


1) Occasionally, the magma makes its way to the surface forming volcanoes and can also cause earthquakes, usually from movement along fault lines and tectonic plate movement.

2) Occasionally, weather patterns cause issues for inhabitants of the planet.


Both of the above are part and parcel of a planet's natural structure. A natural structure that IS REQUIRED for life to exist upon a planet. Unfortunately, sometimes the required factors of our lovely planet Earth cause mass casualties of humans within regions of the planet...so what is a GOD to do?

The GOD that I have deduced since its introduction to me in 1997, is an intelligence operating from below the Planck scale. It exists throughout all matter. People die, people have some suffering on the way to death from natural catastrophes - life on Earth is indeed a struggle.


So per your "But then back to the part where, okay, the Christian God is in fact the Creator of all things."

The great thing about the omnipotence of this GOD entity (*while choosing to remain imperceptible to us, for good reason) IS that GOD can minimise the suffering of people in great natural catastrophes - indeed, snatch their souls prior to great suffering.

These people that were unfortunate to have their current lives taken early, are reincarnated - depending on the way they have lived their life, perhaps they will be reincarnated into a position on the Earth where such natural disasters are not as likely.