WE NEED MORE GUNS..

[Dontaskme]

Well, well, well,it seems like it's your opinion mouthing off here now.

Lala la la la...I'm not listening to your silly mouthpiece. hahaha!

My opinion is informed. Yours isn't.

I've made an actual choice (having experienced both cultures, lived both lives and examined the arguments on both sides). You haven't.

Slight difference

I know what you mean, but I guess if I'm ever in a country where I'm being forced to make my own informed choice, then I guess I'm screwed either way.

[Skepdick]

Well, well, well,it seems like it's your opinion mouthing off here now.

Lala la la la...I'm not listening to your silly mouthpiece. hahaha!

My opinion is informed. Yours isn't.

I've made an actual choice (having experienced both cultures, lived both lives and examined the arguments on both sides). You haven't.

Slight difference

I know what you mean, but I guess if I'm ever in a country where I'm being forced to make my own informed choice, then I guess I'm screwed either way.

You say it so proudly.

[Harbal]

We've made the choice, and any changes to the law on private gun ownership are only likely to become more restrictive. We don't need to own guns, and I don't think most of us want to own them.

To use a cliche from the Americans... it's not the Bill of needs - it's the bill of rights.

You don't need to own television sets either. But there you are NOT outlawing them.

But people want to own TV sets, and their ownership does not present any danger to others, either percieved or actual.

I don't have any of those in my house. All of my weapons are defensive.

No, any weapon, by definition, is offensive. Something like a bullet proof vest would be an example os something defensive.

You don't want to live in a safer less crime-ridden country like Switzerland? OK...

I don't know much about Switzerland, and nothing at all about what it's like to live there, so I can't really say if I would like to live somewhere like Switzerland.

I mean that your position is ideological. Even though Switzerland is much safer than the UK despite having more gun violence you don't care about safety.

Are the Swiss allowed to own guns, and is Switzerland safer than the UK? I don't know the answer to either of those questions, but if you say so.....

Perhaps Switzerland would be even safer without the guns, who knows?

You just dislike guns.

How many things that you don't like, don't want, and don't need do you own?

[Harbal]

You just don't like guns. That's fine, but like I said... Those are real strong opinions you hold for an ignoramus.

It's not an opinion in my opinion.

It's a fact, that I do not personally like guns.

And I do not need your opinion on my opinion to meet with your approval as to whether or not my opinion is of ignorance, I will make up my own mind about what I feel about guns, and personally I am not ignorant of the fact that is my own self grown opinion..

Well said.

[Skepdick]

But people want to own TV sets, and their ownership does not present any danger to others, either percieved or actual.

People want to own guns too. But they aren't allowed.

No, any weapon, by definition, is offensive. Something like a bullet proof vest would be an example os something defensive.

I reject your definitions.

If I am using my gun to defend myself then it's a defensive weapon.
If I am using my gun to attack you then it's an offensive weapon.

If I am using the ceramic plates in my bullet proof vest to attack you and bash your skull in - it's an offensive weapon.

if I am using a pencil to attack you and stab you in the eye - it's an offensive weapon.

Or maybe go with how the tacticool crowd says it: I am the weapon - the gun is just a tool.

Are the Swiss allowed to own guns, and is Switzerland safer than the UK? I don't know the answer to either of those questions, but if you say so.....

Yes and Yes.

Perhaps Switzerland would be even safer without the guns, who knows?

It's questionable whether Switzerland would even exist if they didn't have any guns.

How many things that you don't like, don't want, and don't need do you own?

None, but there's plenty things that I didn't like and didn't think I want or need that I now own.

Guns being one of them - I changed my mind. A rare skill these days.

[Harbal]

That's right, judge; the man leaned over my fence and attempted to pick a rose from my garden, so I shot him in the head, under my entitlement to defend my property. It was a purely defensive act, as I'm sure even the would be thief would have to acknowledge, were he able to.

[Skepdick]

That's right, judge; the man leaned over my fence and attempted to pick a rose from my garden, so I shot him in the head, under my entitlement to defend my property. It was a purely defensive act, as I'm sure even the would be thief would have to acknowledge, were he able to.

Your law permits using physical force and inflicting harm on a person to defend property?!?

What an ass-backwards country! And I live in Africa!

Maybe you want to read that sentence again: If I am using my gun to defend myself then it's a defensive weapon. Not defending my property. Defending myself.

You understand the difference between self and property, yes? It's called self-defence not property-defence for a reason!

[Harbal]

But people want to own TV sets, and their ownership does not present any danger to others, either percieved or actual.

People want to own guns too. But they aren't allowed.

Well we can't always have what we want, can we? We might want a fully armed and manned tank standing on our front lawn, just in case our neighbour across the road has his music on too loud, and we need to neutralise his property, in order to defend ourselves against noise polution. I know it sucks, but there are good reasons for our not being allowed to do that.

No, any weapon, by definition, is offensive. Something like a bullet proof vest would be an example os something defensive.

I reject your definitions.

I reject your rejection.

Are the Swiss allowed to own guns, and is Switzerland safer than the UK? I don't know the answer to either of those questions, but if you say so.....

Yes and Yes.

Okay, and okay.

It's questionable whether Switzerland would even exist if they didn't have any guns.

Especially if you were answering the question.

How many things that you don't like, don't want, and don't need do you own?

None, but there's plenty things that I didn't like and didn't think I want or need that I now own.

Guns being one of them - I changed my mind. A rare skill these days.

So you only own a gun because you changed your mind? And you say you didn't want one before you changed your mind.

Well I haven't changed my mind, so I don't want a gun, just like you say you didn't want one before you changed your mind.

I don't know what happened to make you change your mind, so I don't know if I would change my mind if the same thing happened to me.

[Harbal]

That's right, judge; the man leaned over my fence and attempted to pick a rose from my garden, so I shot him in the head, under my entitlement to defend my property. It was a purely defensive act, as I'm sure even the would be thief would have to acknowledge, were he able to.

Your law permits using physical force and inflicting harm on a person to defend property?!?

What an ass-backwards country! And I live in Africa!

Maybe you want to read that sentence again: If I am using my gun to defend myself then it's a defensive weapon. Not defending my property. Defending myself.

You understand the difference between self and property, yes? It's called self-defence not property-defence for a reason!

Stop splitting hairs.

[Skepdick]

Well we can't always have what we want, can we? We might want a fully armed and manned tank standing on our front lawn, just in case our neighbour across the road has his music on too loud, and we need to neutralise his property, in order to defend ourselves against noise polution. I know it sucks, but there are good reasons for our not being allowed to do that.

I agree. But we aren't talking about noise polution management with tanks.

We are talking about life-defence with guns.

But I can see why you'd want to go for absurdities to justify your biases.

I reject your rejection.

So you don't mind being assaulted with my defensive bulletproof vest; or a pencil?

So you only own a gun because you changed your mind? And you say you didn't want one before you changed your mind.

Well I haven't changed my mind, so I don't want a gun, just like you say you didn't want one before you changed your mind.

I don't know what happened to make you change your mind, so I don't know if I would change my mind if the same thing happened to me.

What happened is I decided to think for myself and question what I've been told about guns.

It's true - neither of us knows what would happen if you try it.

[Skepdick]

Stop splitting hairs.

Stop strawmanning everything I say.

There's this principle - maybe you've heard of it...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principle_of_charity

[Harbal]

Well we can't always have what we want, can we? We might want a fully armed and manned tank standing on our front lawn, just in case our neighbour across the road has his music on too loud, and we need to neutralise his property, in order to defend ourselves against noise polution. I know it sucks, but there are good reasons for our not being allowed to do that.

I agree. But we aren't talking about noise polution management with tanks.

We are talking about life-defence with guns.

But I can see why you'd want to go for absurdities to justify your biases.

I don't feel any need to justify my biases; the absurdities are purely for my own entertainment. They help me to endure the tedium of this discussion.

So you don't mind being assaulted with my defensive bulletproof vest; or a pencil?

I wouldn't like it, but I wouldn't shoot you because of it.

What happened is I decided to think for myself and question what I've been told.

I, too, decided to think for myself, and question what I'm being told by you.

It's true - neither of us knows what would happen if you try it.

And we probably never will. I am not likely to try something that doesn't appeal to me; especially when I can envisage its leading to unwanted consequences if I did try it.

[Skepdick]

I don't feel any need to justify my biases; the absurdities are purely for my own entertainment. They help me to endure the tedium of this discussion.

It's hard to imagine your being honest in "enduring the tedium".

Having let me "have the last word" yesterday you seem to have chosen the tedium all by yourself.

I wouldn't like it, but I wouldn't shoot you because of it.

I guess we are different like that. My dislike for enduring grievous bodily harm outweighs my dislike for administering it.

And we probably never will. I am not likely to try something that doesn't appeal to me; especially when I can envisage its leading to unwanted consequences if I did try it.

Well yeah... If you view changing your mind as an "unwanted consequence" - that's essentially what I meant by you being prejudiced against your prejudices being challenged.

[commonsense]

Very good response thanks.

I'm just trying to point out that we are even worse off than the animals who cannot use 'high tech' weapons against themselves, like we can.

So what's the point in thinking and believing we are better off and safe in the world? So whether we have weapons or not, it's not going to make the slighest bit of difference to our life, we are still going to die no matter how much we think we are safer defending it with our weapons.

When will we stop pretending that dying at birth; dying at 35 from a tooth sepsis and dying at 90 in your sleep are the same thing?

Yes, different in details, but philosophically the same, no?

[Skepdick]

Yes, different in details, but philosophically the same, no?

If that's true then it seems like a very good reason to junk phillosophy. The destination's the same - the journey isn't.

It reminds me of this fallacy...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McNamara_fallacy