Christianity

[Harry Baird]

What about Hebrew idea-imperialism?

I know this was directed at henry but I'd wanted to respond to this notion of yours anyway, however briefly, to say that I think it has merit. A friend with whom I correspond wrote something similar to me in an email discussion a few months back. I don't think he'd mind me sharing it publicly, especially as an anonymous comment:

The God of the Abrahamic tradition contrasts against other traditions because it is singular and contentious. It’s not like the other traditions were monotheisms. Setting up a monotheism is pretty aggressive. It says other gods are not real or valid. That’s not friendly.

[henry quirk]

As for the proportionality of the punishment (eternally separated from God, knowing you are the cause of that separation): seems fair to me.

It's not remotely fair when it entails eternal suffering that is "considerably worse than most people can even imagine". There are all sorts of alternative possibilities that a loving, omnipotent God could (would) choose.

What kind of alternate possibilities do you suggest for the murderer, the raper, the slaver?

Why do stealers of life and liberty deserve any more than hell (fiery place or eternal separation from God)? And even these motherfuckers can keep their sorry asses out of the pit if they truly repent.

Seems to me: the Christian God gives even the worst of us endless chances to stop and atone.

[henry quirk]

Better question: is it right, after a lifetime of warnings, pleadings, and explanations, to let a person suffer the consequences of their bad choices?

Nah, that's not a better question, it just avoids the question.

Getting back to this: hq, if you're intent on engaging, then please directly answer the original question (yes/no preferred). That's only fair, right?

I won't answer the question as you framed it cuz you framed it wrong.

The Christian God doesn't condemn: he allows you to choose, and He gives you all the time in the world (your lifetime) to make what you did wrong, right.

[henry quirk]

For me to engage with you you could begin if you choose by engaging with the question I asked. Making demands will result in getting nothing. Acting that was presupposes the slave-abuse you so detest.

Yeah, so you won't back your claim. Fine.

Fuck off. I simply see through your entire self-presentation. You are a con-artist. (T)he essence of your con-artistry is...perfectly plain. It is a form of psychological manipulation.

I reject it.

for the curious: this quote comes from AJ...it was directed at Mannie, up-thread...I re-purpose'd it for my own use cuz -- even though he's prissy lil cocksucker -- AJ does have a way with words
fuck you, AJ

[Alexis Jacobi]

Thus when I said “You are looking for a fight” I caught the gist.

I modified King Lear a bit:

I will have such revenge on you, That all the world shall — I will do such things — What they are, yet I know not, but they shall be The terrors of the earth!

[Dubious]

Jesus was nothing more than one preacher among many preaching to his chosen people...an ancient version of a modern evangelist.

Ah, Dube...we can always count on you to be wrong, it seems. You really think you can parallel Christ with anybody? Historically? Ethically? Personally?

I hope all you're speaking from is historical, textual and theological ignorance. I'd hate to think anybody actually believed that.

You seem to be hit with a double dose of extreme cognitive dissonance. Based on most of the responses you receive, it's you who has, and always had, a major credibility problem. But clearly you don't see it that way; that's not so unusual for them who have blinded themselves both mentally and spiritually though expert in the arts of subterfuge, lies, hypocrisy and distortion...as most already know and accuse you of.

The Jesus story, if rightly considered, is not The Greatest Story Ever Told but its most pathetic. There were many who lived far greater than the poor bloke who preached in the back alleys of Palestine. He even failed as a human having caused his own execution the very first time he entered the big city. Quite stupid actually rampaging through the temple overturning tables, etc., in what was historically accepted practice. In this low action, Jesus calls to mind what an enraged Peter Popoff might do. If one takes the Jesus story as written, it resembles that of a miserably failed human.

However, in your book there isn't a single truth anywhere which a bible quote can't invalidate. I doubt there to be a greater example of an extreme textbook fanatic than thou. Belief in absurdities requires more egregious absurdities to defend it. In this you are too blatant, too excessive and too devious to give it the credency strived for. In your perverse style of argumentation, you in fact are the opposite of what the faith requires to defend itself. Those who may listen to you initially with a degree of credence cease to listen to you later in complete disgust.

Just finished reading, once again, the Gospel of St. John. In its argumentation, it manifests clearly the clumsy evangelistic manner in which it strives to create, so desperately, the simulacrum of a god from a once living non-entity.

[Harry Baird]

What kind of alternate possibilities do you suggest for the murderer, the raper, the slaver?

The simplest is complete dissolution and annihilation of their being, but even that might not be the kindest choice for a wholly loving, omnipotent God. If you want others, I can provide them.

Why do stealers of life and liberty deserve any more than hell (fiery place or eternal separation from God)? And even these motherfuckers can keep their sorry asses out of the pit if they truly repent.

I privately defended you against those who object to your "Steal my lawn chair after I've warned you of the consequences and I'll shoot you" affirmation. I mean, it's a bit extreme to shoot the thief, but it's not hard, when warned, to just back off and move on. Anybody who is foolish enough not to heed your warning in that situation doesn't exactly "deserve" to be shot, but they sure had ample opportunity to avoid it.

But this: this is taking it to a whole other level. You're saying that anybody who commits certain finite crimes deserves pretty much the worst possible consequence: unimaginable suffering for eternity. There's really no word for that: it goes so far beyond justice and even vengeance. It even goes beyond sadism.

I'm not saying there should be no consequences for crimes, including those of murderers, rapists, and slavers, but surely a loving, omnipotent God can do a lot better than close to the absolute worst possible consequence imaginable.

From your later post:

I won't answer the question as you framed it cuz you framed it wrong.

There's nothing wrong with the framing, and the answer is obvious to any reasonable person: "No, condemning a person to eternal, unimaginable suffering is not a loving thing to do". There are no extenuating circumstances that might alter that answer, because the Being supposedly doing the condemning is held to be all-powerful, and thus is perfectly capable of implementing alternative, genuinely loving consequences.

[Age]

'you', "immanuel can",

Sorry, Age.

You're still 15. "We adults" can't be bothered.

LOL

The SAME OLD EXCUSE "immanuel can".

'you' can NOT be so-called 'bothered' BECAUSE 'you' CAN NOT, WITHOUT CONTRADICTING "yourself".

I have ALREADY PROVED IRREFUTABLY True just how MISINFORMED and CONFUSED 'you' REALLY ARE.

LOL BELIEVING God is a male gendered thing is about the MOST ABSURD, STUPID, ILLOGICAL, NONSENSICAL, and RIDICULOUS thing a human being COULD BELIEVE is true. Yet, here you are "immanuel can" BELIEVING such a thing is true.

AND, when QUESTIONED and/or CHALLENGED OVER this CLAIM of YOURS here, 'you', "immanuel can", FAIL and FALTER, ABSOLUTELY, and to make this INCOMPETENCY of YOURS MORE HUMILIATING, for 'you', 'you' USE the EXCUSE that "I can't be bothered".

Which SPEAKS FOR ITSELF.

'you' can NOT be so-called 'bothered' BECAUSE, REALLY, 'you' just CAN NOT explain away YOUR ABSURD CLAIM here.

Oh, and by the way, do 'you' ACTUALLY BELIEVE THINKING, BELIEVING, and CLAIMING that I am 15 makes 'you' come across as MORE GROWN UP and MATURE.

Resorting to this way of replying, while NOT backing up and supporting YOUR CLAIMS here, especially in a philosophy forum, just SHOWS and REVEALS more of who and what 'you' Truly ARE "immanuel can"

And, 'trying to' SEPARATE 'me' from 'you' and ALL "others" here just SHOWS how OUT OF TUNE 'you' REALLY ARE to the Fact that absolutely NO one is on YOUR "side".

As has ALREADY been POINTED OUT to 'you', and CONTINUALLY, is that 'you' ALONE here with YOUR ASSUMPTIONS and BELIEFS.

While we are on this, I will now INFORM 'you' that 'you', "immanuel can", have been and are the biggest 'SINNER' here. But this will fly right OVER the top of your head, as it is sometimes known as, as 'you' have NO idea NOR clue what the word 'sin' means AND refers to, EXACTLY, in and from the context of the bible. Unless, OF COURSE, 'you' end up PROVING me Wrong here.

[Nick_A]

When trying to figure out what this man made personal "Christian God" is, I became convinced it must be a democrat. What other being can be so foolish and manifest such hypocrisy?

[Age]

When trying to figure out what this man made personal "Christian God" is, I became convinced it must be a democrat. What other being can be so foolish and manifest such hypocrisy?

ONLY the human being.

However, the Thing, which the God word once referred to, is NOT hypocritical, NOR contradictory, AT ALL.

[Age]

Is it loving to condemn a person to an eternity of...hell(?)

Better question: is it right, after a lifetime of warnings, pleadings, and explanations, to let a person suffer the consequences of their bad choices?

Of course it is.

I mean, jeez, what is it that's so hard to grasp? God, as envisioned by Christians lays it out for everyone, for anyone...

1 I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. You shall have no other gods before Me.

EVERY dictator also says or thinks, You should have NO other, before Me.

Instead of 'trying to' argue AGAINST the question, with ABSURDITY like above you just gave, WHY NOT just answer the question OPENLY and Honestly.

When one does, then thee ACTUAL Truth of things can be and will be SHOWN, and REVEALED.

2 You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My Commandments.

3 You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain, for the Lord will not hold him guiltless who takes His name in vain.

4 Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.

5 Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long upon the land which the Lord your God is giving you.

6 You shall not murder.

7 You shall not commit adultery.

8 You shall not steal.

9 You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.

10 You shall not covet your neighbor's house; you shall not covet your neighbor's wife, nor his male servant, nor his female servant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbor's.

Even a heathen like me gets it.

[Belinda]

Dubious wrote:

There were many who lived far greater than the poor bloke who preached in the back alleys of Palestine.

All poor blokes are Christ. Poor blokes describes all of us here who are feeling pain, terror, joy, anxiety, pride, frustration, loss, greed, resentment, hate, abandonment, hunger , and thirst etc. The human condition involves being a poor bloke who must cope with his life whatever and wherever he finds himself, on the back alleys of Palestine, in a luxurious palace, in a battle, in a prison, and so on . Many people have taken the life and work of Jesus to be their pattern of how to cope with whatever their lives throw at them. Others take a sacred book to be their pattern. Others take ancestral traditions for their pattern.

The meaning of the myth of Christ is that God as ground of being (pancreator)did cause the human condition with all its suffering. And God as pancreator also caused joy, reason,and man's ability to learn from significant others i.e ,for Christians , the person of Jesus.

[Immanuel Can]

There is nothing to prepare for upon/after my death -- what a ridiculous notion! You believe too many stories.

So sure, you are...

And yet...not so sure.

[Immanuel Can]

There were many who lived far greater than the poor bloke who preached in the back alleys of Palestine.

Name one.

[Immanuel Can]

No, you manipulative spinner, that's not what I've said. Go back and reread.

Okay, Harry: I'll honour your demand.

These are your words, found by going back:

Yep, the stories some dudes wrote down thousands of years ago which some other dudes told you were true - God's revelation no less - which was good enough for you. The story is utterly contradictory,

Problem: no contradiction.

Those are quite obviously not the words in question.

Then I'm guilty of only a mistake in understanding which section you allude to. But it's your mistake: for you called it a "contradiction" yourself. And manifestly, it is not.

But I'm open to being corrected: just give me the "contradiction" you actually meant, now that we see the other isn't a "contradiction."

So, let's get to the point another way. Question for you:

Is it loving to condemn a person to an eternity of a hell which is, in your own words, "considerably worse than most people can even imagine"?

Yes/no answer preferred.

Well, would a loving God allow eternal injustice? Or would a loving God refuse to give people free will?

If you answer those, I think we can answer your question, too.