IC: That's the claim the Bible makes about itself, and the same claim Jesus Christ made about the Scriptures in His day, adding that not one stroke of it would fail to be fulfilled.
Lacewing wrote: ↑Sat Sep 17, 2022 6:17 am
Of course the stories are going to say that.
IC: That's your answer? Well, then you place yourself as an authority superior to Jesus Christ Himself.
LaceWing: It's ALL from stories!
Some pages back IC reminded me that we are here *doing philosophy* which implies that philosophy has certain methods as well as demands it makes. He describes some people's approaches as *irrational* but yet asserts that much of what he believes (fundamentally in
Bible inerrancy) is
rational.
He is also an absolute Bible literalist and for this reason if Jesus of Nazareth is quoted in the Gospels it cannot be taken except as a direct quote. However, we know too much to place irrational faith in such a claim.
The Gospel Stories are, in their way, magnificent stories. Unlike mythical fables from some other cultures (both Buddhism and the Vedic sects of India have only tales of this sort) the events of the NT occur in *modern* time and mention verifiable figures of the era. The story is unlike any other story and is one where 2 paradigm structures (the Divine heavenly structure, God, angels, holy men) confront the entrenched powers of the Earth whose rulership and whose objects do not coincide with that of the Heavenly World.
But as the reader reads the story he is aware that no one participating in the narrative as it moves along has the conscious awareness and grasp that the reader is presented with. No one understands what Jesus of Nazareth is referring to when he alludes to his trials and crucifixion. And it is part of the story that Jesus, who does know, does not make it plain.
There was a time that the larger percentage of people would when reading the Gospel narratives have *believed* every element in it. They would not have understood it as a concocted, novelesque narrative but a special sort of direct reporting (as if an angel like a drone hovered in all important places and recorded the key events). Some modern readers, more especially those who come from limited education and experience with narrative generally, will also enter into the story and *believe* it all.
However this avenue is close to most of us. Simply because we are aware in one degree or other of the so-called higher criticism.
So that divides readers into two camps: 1) the faithful reader camp (the active believer) and 2) the reader who reads with some level of *modern* -- what is the word? -- skepticism.
IC has long ago made certain faith-decisions. Faith-decisions are like forged metal hinges or even locks. They strengthen in time and then even more of them are added as time goes by. The evidence of the adamancy of one faith-lock or certainty-mechanism is in: "That's your answer? Well, then you place yourself as an authority superior to Jesus Christ Himself".
Now I am aware, and all of us should be aware, that *coming into faith* and *building faith* is perhaps one of the most mysterious aspects of human existence. Perhaps especially so in this time. And here we know a good deal more about it than previously. But it has to be understood that
conversion -- a person making dramatic choices to reorient himself in relation to a new existential path or a new religious mode -- this was very common in the early centuries which were, like ours, times of all sorts of different upheavals.
American Evangelicals train their pastors (read: priests) in the techniques of Christian apology. There are schools and seminaries where these techniques are taught. Many of the preachers of the so-called Mega Churches come out of these colleges. Lighting, music, sound intensity, and the manipulation of drama are part of the *show* that the unbeliever or semi-believer is exposed to. So conversion, the breakdown of the individual to a point where he drops the barrier and let's *faith* stream in, is the attainment set out to be achieved. Once achieved,
maintenance of faith is just as important.
We have therefore a
Novelesque Jesus who is presented to us in Stories of unusual drama and narrative intensity. The stories start in *normal* day to day circumstances with normal characters doing their daily jobs. But as the story progresses the disturbing elements and story-line twists come out of the woodwork and show themselves: the agents of demonic opposition. The Reader, of course, has been made privy to this, even if he is not as aware of this fact as he should be. He is given more and better understanding than even the Apostles!
It is necessary and I will say very very important to understand that in the last 150 years or so certain groups, certain theologically situated persons and groups (within late forms of Protestantism) have grabbed hold of the narratives in special and unique ways and have 'spun' them with very specific intentions. Those intentions can be understood but entering into the entire process demands an investment in reading most will not make. To understand this new-developed theological movement see Stefen Sizer on Christian Zionism (a search on Google or YouTube "Stephen Sizer Christian Zionism" will bring it up).
If you wonder about the dramatic, and very destructive, events of recent times, and perhaps considering the murky 9/11 events as primary. The various wars that have been set in motion to *remodel* the Middle East, as well as the background (or is it foreground?) Evangelicalism of all American presidencies but most effectively that of Donald Trump, you will quickly see that this *Christianity* is a politicial-social power. And indeed the 'conversion-even' that takes place has a side function of bringing that *believer* (new believer) into a set of contemporary political views.
Now behind the scenes (behind all of our scenes) are those men we never see and yet how manipulate and direct affairs. (The quote from Bernays, above).
Within the context of the picture I just painted the phrase assigned to Jesus of Nazareth about the claim Jesus Christ made about the Scriptures in His day, where he added that "not one stroke of it would fail to be fulfilled" will simply have to be seen in a very different light.
Clearly, I am making a separation here. My own view? Well that view is in some ways similar to Nick's as I have often said. There is a real and a genuine Christian path that most certainly can be followed. It involves reading the best literature, cleaning up one's life, making decisions about one's priorities, one's family, how one will present oneself to one's children and how one will raise them, as well as ethical and moral issues. The question of worship and ritual (say New Mass or perhaps Latin and Traditional Mass) as well as the Sacraments -- in my view all of these elements have great soundness in them. We should confirm ourselves (make a confirmation of what we do or can believe and decisions about our actions and commitments). Marriage should be a Sacrament. Even confession is, in the life of all people, even those who have to go into therapy to resolve old wounds or blocks, can be seesn as being relevant.
But all these things are done by an individual and within a small circle.
But the Mass Evangelical Movements -- these are animals of a very different order. They have a *surface* but they also have a *depth* -- and I assert that the more the depth or inside is studied the more that it should itself not a a spiritualizing force in our present, but as a political and social manipulation tool.
