Christianity

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Alexis Jacobi
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Re: Christianity

Post by Alexis Jacobi »

Lacewing wrote: Fri Sep 16, 2022 11:21 pmOr are you not aware of it, and imagine yourself as honorable and true despite all of the feedback/challenges pointing out the contrary?
One has to consider the function of the mental and ideological system.

If I begin with a philosophical or religious perspective that is severely binary and is established in a strict either/or, and establish as an a priori that opposition received is confirmation that I am 'doing right' and doing what God wants me to do; then all the opposition received, no matter of what sort, is naturally and if you will logically chalked up to demonic opposition. "I am doing God's work. I am getting opposition. Clearly, Satan is opposing me. Good! This shows that I am on the right track! Avanti!"

My opposition to IC's ideology, yours, Harry's -- the entire forum and indeed the entire world's -- can only be seen by him as evidence of being on the right track. "They will hate you as they hated Me". That sort of thing. Seen in a certain way the use of this manipulation could be seen as extremely evil. And of course all through the ages people have had Issues" with priestly abuse of power.

One has in my opinion to seek out the origin of this imperious position. And the origin of it is in a specific assertions by a priestly class among the Hebrews. They wrote the narratives. They held on to them. They organized them. They wielded them. All *in the name of God*. It is a delicious position.

The first element is that of Election. To have been selected by God to be 'God's chosen people'. Once one sees that this is a self-generated assertion put in the mouth, as it were, of an extremely destructive imago of divinity (the Hebrew Yahweh), and once one understand that assertion put in the mouth of this God is bound up with a command to -- literally -- destroy other peoples who conceive of God differently; to kill them, to rob them, to take over their land; once this is made clear it can really change how one views the entire *construct* through which the Abrahamic religions have been built. They share a core origin.

If *ideas have consequences* this is a ripe area for inquiry.

I submit that the adamancy of IC's stance is evidence of that intolerant, arrogating position. It cannot arrive at compromise but must actually destroy opposing idea-sets. It defines as *enemy* all who will not bend to its will.

Again, I will make every effort to provide some examples soon.

But the key is this: these are not 'revelations from God' they are narratives concocted, cynically, by a priestly class within an ideology of emotional, psychological, existential and indeed cosmological manipulation. It is I think impossible for a *true believer* to even consider this.

The lesson? That powerful elites with cynical intentions, methods and tactics can *enslave* people and keep them 'bound' through mental-manipulation. Those who have this power do not want to relinquish it and since it works well they seek ways to expand its use. This points to all different manner of mind-manipulation, throught control, brainwashing, propaganda and disinformation. In our own day there are specialist in these areas:
“The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of. This is a logical result of the way in which our democratic society is organized. Vast numbers of human beings must cooperate in this manner if they are to live together as a smoothly functioning society. In almost every act of our daily lives, whether in the sphere of politics or business, in our social conduct or our ethical thinking, we are dominated by the relatively small number of persons who understand the mental processes and social patterns of the masses. It is they who pull the wires which control the public mind.”

-- Edward Bernays in Propaganda (1928)
Lacewing continues:
It's just fascinating to see nearly everyone challenge your tactics and claims in the same ways, and then come to the same conclusions about you throughout the years, and yet you carry on as if no one notices/remembers.
That seems to be an extraordinary example of the powerful extent of blindness and denial associated with (your) religious fervor, despite your denial of religious identity.
In my own view, and though it is undeniable that Christianity has been infused with *Hebrew Idea-Imperialism*, the difficult and challenging part is discerning what is actually *good* (upstanding, valid, verifiable, and positive-oriented) within a contaminated system. How does one sort this out?

Because what I notice about IC is what I am coming to believe is a core narcissism (or something like it). He does nothing but harm to those who have a receptive attitude toward his presentation. What he achieves is the precise opposite of what he claims to desire. He drives people away from being able to *appreciate* both Judaism and Christianity -- yet he does not care. I find this, at the very least, curious.

Yet this too must be *success*.
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henry quirk
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Re: Christianity

Post by henry quirk »

henry quirk wrote: Fri Sep 16, 2022 10:31 pm
That has nothing to do with whether I can, or can't, express my opinions.
AJ, if you could tell me what my perspective is, and why I'm lost in it, and why my opinions, drawn from that perspective, are irrelevant and unimportant, you would have, lickety-split, and you'd have relished doin' so.

You haven't preferring instead to play the distraction game (an old, obvious, strategy).

We both know what that means.

Prove me wrong: tell me, what's my perspective, AJ?
promethean75
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Re: Christianity

Post by promethean75 »

"But the key is this: these are not 'revelations from God' they are narratives concocted, cynically, by a priestly class within an ideology of emotional, psychological, existential and indeed cosmological manipulation."

indeed, but is there any interpretation of biblical text and commentary that isn't concocted by someone with emotional, psychological and existential ideological values and prejudices?

it's inherent to the very nature of the text to be absurd. absurd on account of, as you say, it's even possible at all for those who claim to be elected to be farcical imposters and manipulators.

u have to aks why would a competent god involve itself with such controversial ambiguity and irresolvable interpretational conflict?
Nick_A
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Re: Christianity

Post by Nick_A »

henry quirk wrote: Sat Sep 17, 2022 1:24 am
henry quirk wrote: Fri Sep 16, 2022 10:31 pm
That has nothing to do with whether I can, or can't, express my opinions.
AJ, if you could tell me what my perspective is, and why I'm lost in it, and why my opinions, drawn from that perspective, are irrelevant and unimportant, you would have, lickety-split, and you'd have relished doin' so.

You haven't preferring instead to play the distraction game (an old, obvious, strategy).

We both know what that means.

Prove me wrong: tell me, what's my perspective, AJ?
Actually, the question of perspective is an important question. What is the difference between a Christian and a human perspective? From Matthew 16. Peter did not know:
21 From that time on Jesus began to explain to his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things at the hands of the elders, the chief priests and the teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and on the third day be raised to life.

22 Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him. “Never, Lord!” he said. “This shall never happen to you!”

23 Jesus turned and said to Peter, “Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me; you do not have in mind the concerns of God, but merely human concerns.”
Peter did not want to see Jesus killed. What is wrong with that? Is Jesus inviting suicide? It would seem so from a human perspective. But what is the Christian perspective? We have a thread going on over 500 posts and the best anyone has come up with is the idea that a personal God demands his son to take the blame. Why? What is the sense of it and why should it be believed and considered a Christian perspective? So Henry, if you don't know what a Christian perspective is, join the club. No one else knows either. Your perspective is as good as anyone else's human perspective if it provides meaning for you
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henry quirk
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Re: Christianity

Post by henry quirk »

Actually, the question of perspective is an important question.
Damn straight, Nick: especially if you're gonna, as AJ did, point to someone else and claim their perspective is narrow. Do that and you oughta be able to articulate that perspective.
So Henry, if you don't know what a Christian perspective is, join the club.
❓

You best go grind that ax elsewhere, guy.
Nick_A
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Re: Christianity

Post by Nick_A »

A J
I am very interested in the fall and the descent from those former *conceptual orders* when people did take their religious and spiritual life seriously. Decadence is a notion that can be examined as a 'falling back into' those conditions of which Plato's Cave is a metaphor.

Irving Babbitt wrote in “Interpreting India to the West” (1917):
"On the one hand is the ascending path of insight and discrimination. Those who take it may be termed the spiritual athletes. On the other hand is the descending path towards the subrational followed by those who court the confused reverie that comes from the breakdown of barriers and the blurring of distinctions and who are ready to forego purpose in favor of “spontaneity”; and these may be termed the cosmic loafers."
A while back I introduced a young female college student to Simone Weil's ideas on the necessity of the needs of the soul as well as the needs for everyday life in a healthy growing society. Of course they are being forgotten. She had read this article and submitted her interpretations for a term paper. Her prof gave her an A and wrote "exceptional". Who speaks of the needs of the soul? Her prof had an open mind. There is hope

https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/questionofgod/voices/weil.html
Nick_A
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Re: Christianity

Post by Nick_A »

henry quirk wrote: Sat Sep 17, 2022 3:34 am
Actually, the question of perspective is an important question.
Damn straight, Nick: especially if you're gonna, as AJ did, point to someone else and claim their perspective is narrow. Do that and you oughta be able to articulate that perspective.
So Henry, if you don't know what a Christian perspective is, join the club.
❓

You best go grind that ax elsewhere, guy.
We are what we do. It's not that you have a narrow perspective. A narrow perspective is the norm for everyone including you and me residing in the darkness of Plato's Cave governed by imagination. A person has the potential to evolve from a cave perspective into a conscious universal perspective and freedom. But who has the will, the need, and the courage to do it?
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Christianity

Post by Immanuel Can »

Harry Baird wrote: Fri Sep 16, 2022 11:31 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Sep 16, 2022 11:23 pm
Harry Baird wrote: Fri Sep 16, 2022 11:19 pm The story is utterly contradictory,
Tell me about that. What's the "contradictory" bit, for you?
That says everything.
Actually, it says nothing...where's the "contradiction"?

You mean that God says things you don't like? :shock:

That's not a "contradiction," except a contradiction of your wishes.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Christianity

Post by Immanuel Can »

Harbal wrote: Fri Sep 16, 2022 11:47 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Sep 16, 2022 8:59 pm
Hold on, though.
No, IC, the time for holding on has passed. I have made my decision and it stands, with immediate effect. Case closed, i's dotted and t's crossed, signed, sealed and delivered. The fat lady has left the building.
Hmmm...

Well, since I like you, I can hope that's not how it ends. But for now, I accept your closing of the subject.
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henry quirk
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Re: Christianity

Post by henry quirk »

Nick_A wrote: Sat Sep 17, 2022 4:02 am
henry quirk wrote: Sat Sep 17, 2022 3:34 am
Actually, the question of perspective is an important question.
Damn straight, Nick: especially if you're gonna, as AJ did, point to someone else and claim their perspective is narrow. Do that and you oughta be able to articulate that perspective.
So Henry, if you don't know what a Christian perspective is, join the club.
❓

You best go grind that ax elsewhere, guy.
We are what we do. It's not that you have a narrow perspective. A narrow perspective is the norm for everyone including you and me residing in the darkness of Plato's Cave governed by imagination. A person has the potential to evolve from a cave perspective into a conscious universal perspective and freedom. But who has the will, the need, and the courage to do it?
You pullin' an AJ on me, Nick?

What's my perspective?
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Christianity

Post by Immanuel Can »

Lacewing wrote: Fri Sep 16, 2022 11:57 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Sep 16, 2022 11:26 pm
Lacewing wrote: Fri Sep 16, 2022 11:21 pmDo you think it's just because they're not as tuned into God as you are?
I'll let God say whether they are or aren't. But what they say is not what I find in the Bible. So you be the judge.
The Bible was written by primitive men long ago who had certain leanings.
Well, manifestly men held the quill, the stylus or the pen. The important question about that is, "was what they wrote down theirs"?

"But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture becomes a matter of someone’s own interpretation, for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God." (2 Peter 1:20-21)

That's the claim the Bible makes about itself, and the same claim Jesus Christ made about the Scriptures in His day, adding that not one stroke of it would fail to be fulfilled. If you want to contradict Him, and present yourself as more knowledgeable about that, then I don't know what to say. Those that find you credible will believe you; those who find Him credible will not, I suppose.
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Lacewing
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Re: Christianity

Post by Lacewing »

Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Sep 17, 2022 4:12 am That's the claim the Bible makes about itself, and the same claim Jesus Christ made about the Scriptures in His day, adding that not one stroke of it would fail to be fulfilled.
Of course the stories are going to say that.

The only reason to model God from a particular belief system or people, is to serve those people.

How can you see ‘God’ in such small terms: in line with the limitations and characteristics imagined by ancient men? Why wouldn't ‘God’ be so much more than that?

There is something wicked about the way Christianity (or any religion) claims they are uniquely aligned with God.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Christianity

Post by Immanuel Can »

Lacewing wrote: Sat Sep 17, 2022 5:30 am
Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Sep 17, 2022 4:12 am That's the claim the Bible makes about itself, and the same claim Jesus Christ made about the Scriptures in His day, adding that not one stroke of it would fail to be fulfilled.
Of course the stories are going to say that.
That's your answer? Well, then you place yourself as an authority superior to Jesus Christ Himself.

Sorry: I don't see it your way. I doubt anybody else will, either.
Dubious
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Re: Christianity

Post by Dubious »

Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Sep 17, 2022 5:40 am
Lacewing wrote: Sat Sep 17, 2022 5:30 am
Immanuel Can wrote: Sat Sep 17, 2022 4:12 am That's the claim the Bible makes about itself, and the same claim Jesus Christ made about the Scriptures in His day, adding that not one stroke of it would fail to be fulfilled.
Of course the stories are going to say that.
That's your answer? Well, then you place yourself as an authority superior to Jesus Christ Himself.

Sorry: I don't see it your way. I doubt anybody else will, either.
You'd be so very wrong about that. Jesus was nothing more than one preacher among many preaching to his chosen people...an ancient version of a modern evangelist.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Christianity

Post by Immanuel Can »

Dubious wrote: Sat Sep 17, 2022 5:52 am Jesus was nothing more than one preacher among many preaching to his chosen people...an ancient version of a modern evangelist.
Ah, Dube...we can always count on you to be wrong, it seems. You really think you can parallel Christ with anybody? Historically? Ethically? Personally?

I hope all you're speaking from is historical, textual and theological ignorance. I'd hate to think anybody actually believed that.
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