feedback requests around the experience of going beyond dual thought

[Age]

Again, I agree, except that everything is perfect as it is.

When you are in such a moment, yes perhaps, but you are also able to see the difference with the rest (hence probably why you also can feel isolated).

My impressions... There are likely all kinds of degrees and variances for each person's experience. If there is some idea of difference or otherness, then that's still some dual thought, yes? But, that's not a bad thing! It's what we humans are about. That's the artwork of this physical world. It's not something that must be rejected... but rather embraced as part of the artwork and the whole. We simply don't want to be mindlessly driven by dual thoughts.

In my experience of those moments of awareness of oneness, I am also aware of the human character I am amidst all human characters on this holographic stage. I remember wishing that I could live/stay/share in that state of awareness WITH other people... and wondering what kind of world and life that might be. But for whatever reasons, THIS is the movie I'm in, flashing briefly across a screen in a rush of color and sights and sounds, and there's no need to reject it when I've seen/experienced that it's already perfect and complete and whole. I might as well embrace this experience/moment and live it. Not try to escape it or imagine that I'm bigger/better than it is. It is the cosmic painting I am part of, and it's magnificent. The canvas will be painted over soon enough. Doesn't matter... and everything is fine.

Ironically, even the non-dual concept can be turned into separatist religion. I don't like the way religions reject being a human while pretending to be associated with some greater glory. Imagine if an element of a painting rose off the canvas and insisted indignantly that it was better than the painting?

I think I can follow you there, but doesn't this make way for total acceptance, including injustice factors to become the norm?
while you accept everything as part of the painting, others are discriminated and worse ...I have real trouble with this for plenty of reasons.

When you discover or learn WHY every person does what they do, then you gain fully understanding. Only then you will also automatically gain fully forgiveness.

Obviously you could only true forgive someone for what they have done, only when you have gained a full understanding of why they have done, what they have done.

Once you have understood why EVERY adult behaves unjustly, then you will gain understanding, itself, and when you have understanding of all, then you will also have total acceptance for all. This does not mean that you agree with the unjust things adults do, but rather you have just gained a total acceptance of WHY they do all of what they do.

But granted, towards your argument; I tried to spread this on a micro level, to come up with at least some mutual understanding, and as mentioned before, all I get are blank stares, even defensive reactions (trough conditioning factors) and a nut stamp ...(good that I like nuts, they are very nutritious )

Even my artworks are labeled this way, and get the same responses, trough it's minimal and often easy feel of "I can do this too", only difference is; they don't )

Talking about artworks: Your pebble story inspired me to generate one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G6QHVJpPmSQ

another (non) conceptual variant around UNity through diversity. Every pebble is the same, but at the same time unique as well

Many thanks for the inspiration and kick in the butt Lacewing, towards finally generating a piece around little pebbles!

EVERY new born human body is uniquely different, but within every unique human body there is a being which is exactly the same. This being is FULLY OPEN to absolutely any and every thing.

As each unique human body experiences the world around it, in its own unique and special way, there forms a uniquely different set of thoughts, which makes the person within, the person that it is, that is; a very uniquely special different person. We are ALL the EXACT SAME in this regard as being unique and special one of a kind.

[Age]

I think I can follow you there, but doesn't this make way for total acceptance

Yes... from the perspective of going beyond dual thought. Doesn't going beyond dual thought mean there is nothing we're comparing to (or separating from) because it's all one, right? In my own experience, that awareness/sense of oneness felt like perfection of ALL without judgment. A sense of that stays with me (sometimes I'm more aware of it than other times), even though I'm right back sharing this intoxicating stage with everyone.

Once a person discovers or learns HOW and WHY they are the way they are, then they also learn HOW and WHY EVERY one is the way they are. Once KNOWING WHY EVERY one is the way they are, then there is NO judgement at all. This is because when the VERY REASON WHY EVERY one is the way they are is KNOWN then there can be NO judgement. The very thing that causes EVERY one to be the way they SHOWS why ALL judgement is based upon false premises.

including injustice factors to become the norm?
while you accept everything as part of the painting, others are discriminated and worse ...I have real trouble with this for plenty of reasons.

But granted, towards your argument; I tried to spread this on a micro level, to come up with at least some mutual understanding, and as mentioned before, all I get are blank stares, even defensive reactions (trough conditioning factors) and a nut stamp …

Accepting doesn't mean it's pleasant or easy or fair... or any of the other judgments humans might try to apply to it. I think EVERYTHING IS part of the artwork. ALL of the colors and textures. A magnificent explosion of possibilities being explored and manifested in so many directions. Wow!

Once fully and true understanding is gained, then acceptance, itself, is actually very pleasant, easy, and simple. Acceptance is actually what is fair and just.

I remember loving horror movies when I was young. They were so thrilling! I knew they weren't real or serious. I knew they were images on a screen. I knew it was a "show". Our life experience is super multi-dimensional. It's very real for us -- which may be the best kind of show, right? If we feel trapped by it, or a victim of it (or we think others are), it's not going to be very enjoyable -- but on some level, we may be producing, directing, and starring in it. (I'm suddenly reminded of stories of so many people who have died or nearly died, who knew everything was okay and/or sent such messages to their surviving, grieving family members.) When we tune into the concept of all being one, without the pains of human judgment and seriousness, our experience can take on a different quality. We may still get run over by a truck -- or suffer through years of abuse or hardship -- but I think embracing the quality of each moment, in that moment, is really all there "is".[/quote]

"Suffer" and "hardships" are only a perception that an adult chooses to use.

See, what one has to learn is how to express to adults that they wrong that they continue to do themselves and the wrong they allow others to continue to do, although is a part of the perfect picture show that Life, Itself, is NOW, is what NEEDS to change for the better, which is what Life, itself, is all about. That is; making Life, Itself, better for EVERY one.

Just looking at this GREAT SHOW called Life is one thing, but allowing adult human beings to keep destroying life on earth is NOT part of the SHOW.

Such ideas are not easy to wrap our heads around, let alone communicate or share with a lot of people. Most people are in a movie, and they may not want you turning on the theater lights! People believe their movies... and identify with their movies. And most of all, maybe, it's not even necessary to turn on the theater lights because everything is FINE! When we can feel that, then we might be better able to direct our path through the show more mindfully.

Just how absolutely EVERY thing is NOW is PERFECTLY FINE. When one wants to and does Truly change for the better, then they can SEE this PERFECTLY CLEAR.

[Dontaskme]

Hey,

many thanks for the responses

Why I asked you this, was because of a hunch that, just because you experienced this so early, you are able to handle it better with no real issues.

And I think your responses proved this to be right

This while I experienced it only later on in life, and very much conditioned towards the current cultural "reality membrane" (that gave me nothing but a depression signals)...
so you can imagine it pretty much was a shock to experience this, resulting in a backlash/mental breakdown with some chronic negative aspects, and isolation to boot.
Which is very peculiar indeed, since you found out how to be more playful and loving, etc ...and while you want to offer this "pebble" of a gift to others, you end up more and more depressed and isolated as a result

So while with you it's like water off a ducks back, I must admit I still struggle with this I must say.
Although, as mentioned before, the discussions here are really helping me a lot.

I understand what a shock it can be to discover the nondual nature of the self.

As for this character here, that goes by the name of DAM..I've always been able to control and handle my negative and depressive emotions .. ironically, by allowing them to BE present....I would not try to resist or ignore them. Instead, I would not fear them, I would listen to what they were showing me. So the problem I think, is that when bad emotions are suppressed and not allowed to BE, is when they can linger within the bodymind allowing them to grow even bigger and bigger, to the point of overwhelming the bodymind to the extent it turns to dis-ease and breaks down into helplessness and despair. . resulting in depression...I know this personally because I have felt it in my own bodymind.

So what happens when a bodymind experiences ''A full blown awakening'' is that as the 'old me' / 'ego self' dissolves away, it almost feels like a big deep sorrow is decending upon you where you are letting go of the attachment to your separate little self identity, it's like a mini-death, and we experience a period of mourning. I've heard many people go through that grieving process, and it feels like a deep depression. I myself went through a similar experience, although my experience never overwhelmed me too much, I was lucky enough to bounce back very quickly to a state of equilibrium. I've always been a positive, happy go lucky, jolly jokey, giving and loving kind of character, the sort of person that refuses to give in to evil, darkness and despair, because I've always known that the thoughts, feelings and emotions are not real, and that they are not who I really am.

That's where Nonduality saved me from myself and showed me the truth of my being, which was always with me, even through the darkest of times. The isolation part suits me right down to the ground, because upon realising that there is only one of us here, I knew that nothing could ever effect me mentally except my own unguarded thoughts. This was good news to me. Now I'm living my bestest life ever, and when this bodymind being labeled DAM,ceases to be known anymore, I will have no regrets of this life experience, because I have found my peace with God..which is everything, myself and others.

It is only when you realise that you are much BIGGER than the feeling, thoughts, and emotions, ..when you know that these ''feelings'' all go away leaving the real you totally unscathed...is when they stop bothering you permanently.

So happy to hear the discussions here are really helping you a lot.

[NEW]

Wow, plenty of relevant feedback here,
impossible to answer it all, except to show my gratitude towards it.

And I think, personally, I got it, also that I'm not quite there yet, with "accepting things", except for some moments here and there.

The genuine compassion/sympathy is already there, (and btw, not the kind of compassion of "hey, you have my compassion, because I know better),
But I still want to bend it, force it somehow, into something better, with others, while this might be the source of the very issue.

Accepting things, over and over again, would potentially generate a non issue around many issues, if not most or all.

People, please stop bringing tears to my eyes (in a very good way )
for over a decade I have been struggling with this, and now, a single post, with some people with understanding this ...I'm pretty much speechless except to express a genuine thank you!

Including this:

Talking about artworks: Your pebble story inspired me to generate one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G6QHVJpPmSQ

another (non) conceptual variant around UNity through diversity. Every pebble is the same, but at the same time unique as well

EVERY new born human body is uniquely different, but within every unique human body there is a being which is exactly the same. This being is FULLY OPEN to absolutely any and every thing.

As each unique human body experiences the world around it, in its own unique and special way, there forms a uniquely different set of thoughts, which makes the person within, the person that it is, that is; a very uniquely special different person. We are ALL the EXACT SAME in this regard as being unique and special one of a kind.

You managed to explain pretty much of what I'm trying to say with my artwork ...

[Atla]

Just don't get too lost in the "Great self", and don't throw out the "old individual self" completely. Maybe only throw out like 70-80% of the old individual self, or something like that. (You seem to like Watts a lot, I think this is what he meant by choosing to live as a "genuine fake".)

Getting lost in the "Great self" too much is a good way to go insane. Because our "Great self" is rather empty, it doesn't feel like anything, it doesn't have any personality traits such as openness etc., those are also illusions, the "Great self" is just the world or existence itself. It's easy for nondualists to become so psychotic that they can no longer even maintain genuine human connections, in case they ever could in the first place.

[NEW]

Just don't get too lost in the "Great self", and don't throw out the "old individual self" completely. Maybe only throw out like 70-80% of the old individual self, or something like that. (You seem to like Watts a lot, I think this is what he meant by choosing to live as a "genuine fake".)

Getting lost in the "Great self" too much is a good way to go insane. Because our "Great self" is rather empty, it doesn't feel like anything, it doesn't have any personality traits such as openness etc., those are also illusions, the "Great self" is just the world or existence itself. It's easy for nondualists to become so psychotic that they can no longer even maintain genuine human connections, in case they ever could in the first place.

point taken and I agree, since I have had earlier experiences of thought experiments going completely h-wire,
It's called the "blown out state" if I'm not mistaken.
But strangely enough, having those experiences under my belt ...this became less of an issue, and you become better at "surfing those waves" (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oSR8irQRdWs).

[Lacewing]

Just don't get too lost in the "Great self", and don't throw out the "old individual self" completely. Maybe only throw out like 70-80% of the old individual self, or something like that. (You seem to like Watts a lot, I think this is what he meant by choosing to live as a "genuine fake".)

Getting lost in the "Great self" too much is a good way to go insane. Because our "Great self" is rather empty, it doesn't feel like anything, it doesn't have any personality traits such as openness etc., those are also illusions, the "Great self" is just the world or existence itself. It's easy for nondualists to become so psychotic that they can no longer even maintain genuine human connections, in case they ever could in the first place.

Great points!

This world is perfectly and intricately part of all that is -- providing a glorious landscape for whatever needs/wants to be expressed, experienced, shared, etc. To reject it or diminish it, is like rejecting and diminishing an essence that we are part of! Many might imagine an "otherness" that is a god, and spit on this Earth as evil. That's yet another way of rejecting what they are part of, under the guise of being uniquely part of something more supreme. While pretending to be above it all, they are actually buried underneath it. Locked in a perpetual battle of resistance of their own limited making. Rather than flying freely in the skies of all that is accepted and appreciated.

I don't think children are typically born with egos and delusions, so these attributes seem to arise from the effects of conditioning on individual souls/beings, who have unique chemistries. If someone wants to spin and fuss in a layered cocoon for their whole life, they can do so. But every one (who hasn't fried their brain or derailed their sensibility completely with delusion) can access that energetic state of when they were young and new, before all of the conditioning was layered on. They can acknowledge those layers and start mindfully and lovingly removing them... deprogramming themselves of all that causes them to reject and diminish what they're naturally part of.

[NEW]

While pretending to be above it all, they are actually buried underneath it. Locked in a perpetual battle of resistance of their own limited making. Rather than flying freely in the skies of all that is accepted and appreciated.

Yep, this is the blown out state, with for instance an example that one has meditated for 10 hours, and the other only 5, so the one with 10 hours is more "enlightened" then the other.
Anyway, it always generates another dualistic division between you and the other, and that isn't what the non dual approach is about.

I don't think children are typically born with egos and delusions, so these attributes seem to arise from the effects of conditioning on individual souls/beings, who have unique chemistries. If someone wants to spin and fuss in a layered cocoon for their whole life, they can do so. But every one (who hasn't fried their brain or derailed their sensibility completely with delusion) can access that energetic state of when they were young and new, before all of the conditioning was layered on. They can acknowledge those layers and start mindfully and lovingly removing them... deprogramming themselves of all that causes them to reject and diminish what they're naturally part of.

So true as well, my research indicate also that cultural ao conditioning, is part of the issue. (conditioned to have to marry or have a girlfriend, have to have work, status, lots of money, reputation, kids, a ferrari, etc etc)

I often describe it with an onion, that consists of many layers, with the remark also, once you peel of all the layers, nothing is left really.
Nothing any more that bothers you spreading your wings, and indeed "flying freely in the skies".

I found a good video to illustrate this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fo-OD1vk6Xw (by by Mooji and Neale Donald Walsch)

[Lacewing]

While pretending to be above it all, they are actually buried underneath it. Locked in a perpetual battle of resistance of their own limited making. Rather than flying freely in the skies of all that is accepted and appreciated.

Yep, this is the blown out state, with for instance an example that one has meditated for 10 hours, and the other only 5, so the one with 10 hours is more "enlightened" then the other.
Anyway, it always generates another dualistic division between you and the other, and that isn't what the non dual approach is about.

Yes, I would say there is no formula or requirement or number of steps for any of us. Those are just ideas that contrast with other ideas.

my research indicate also that cultural ao conditioning, is part of the issue. (conditioned to have to marry or have a girlfriend, have to have work, status, lots of money, reputation, kids, a ferrari, etc etc)

I totally agree. These are just props on the stage... or parts of a role/script. The real essence of a person comes through the quality of their being... and the energy they emit/vibrate. If the props or roles somehow improve their energy, great! If not, no need. Such things are superficial tools, for better or worse. A person's essence is not dependent on such things one way or another.

once you peel of all the layers, nothing is left really.
Nothing any more that bothers you spreading your wings, and indeed "flying freely in the skies".

Yeh!! Life is rather brief... but there's enough time to learn to fly.

[Atla]

point taken and I agree, since I have had earlier experiences of thought experiments going completely h-wire,
It's called the "blown out state" if I'm not mistaken.
But strangely enough, having those experiences under my belt ...this became less of an issue, and you become better at "surfing those waves" (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oSR8irQRdWs).

Nondualism is wonderful and life changing (and the fact of existence). But it has its inherent dangers, and Eastern philosophies are in general quite murky about these dangers, so it's even harder for Westerners to avoid them, it's very easy for us to misunderstand their intended meaning.

So it's easy to end up in a state something like this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4KXidr0z1RY this isn't actually Advaita anymore, but the superficial Neo-Advaita.

They try to fully get rid of the individual ego, some of them even get into the psychosis of thinking that they are channeling the Great self. Some posters on this forum have ended up in such traps, they may even want to remain trapped there as a form of escapism, and maybe out of spite. I mean one CAN do that, it's their life, but it sure doesn't look like the optimal way.

The optimal way is probably to choose to live as the "genuine fake". You retain some of your ego, some of your identification with your ego, while also knowing deep down, what's actually going on. It's the best of "both worlds", you get to remain a human in one way, and you also get to be "it". Why choose one over the other, when we can have both (and in fact we are always both). It takes some time and skill to reconcile the two.

[NEW]

Indeed it is Atla, except for the last part perhaps.

It has got many wonderful aspects I grabbed along with it;

moments of content/bliss in more "ordinary" things,
being able to be, and be satisfied with less (Seneca, Montaigne, and many others)
feeling, and being a meaningful part of something, although culture keeps pushing you to be not,
micro dealing with alternatives, to become the change you wish to see in others,
finding peace in general, feeling whole in a fragmented world,

... (and plenty of other things)

but it's, again, a concept, nevertheless, a definition that will always divide things also, because it being another concept.
and even more so,

it tends to turn someone also into a sheep of acceptance of almost everything, ignorance, and therefore become a driver towards dynamics of unconcern, passiveness towards forms of injustice, and part of the general driver to become ignorant, and become therefore, a participant of drivers towards conflict rich environments, and even war.
With the claim:

it's all part of the painting

I still have a moral compass also, and I wish not to be a member of such club, any club really, cause Socrates wins every time, with being the unknown as only certain factor.

Non dualism was a nice contender, but only offers, like any concept, a nice playing ground of ideas.
But one, I admit, I will go back to many times, for comfort.

I do want to thank everyone here involved, a genuine thanks, for participating, learning me some things around this, with, again , many great lessons and marvelous things I will certainly adapt, or try to adapt, for them to be real aspects, worthy of them to have them, or try.

But saying I'm now, or ever, become a member of this club ...no thank you.

[Atla]

Indeed it is Atla, except for the last part perhaps.

It has got many wonderful aspects I grabbed along with it;

moments of content/bliss in more "ordinary" things,
being able to be, and be satisfied with less (Seneca, Montaigne, and many others)
feeling, and being a meaningful part of something, although culture keeps pushing you to be not,
micro dealing with alternatives, to become the change you wish to see in others,
finding peace in general, feeling whole in a fragmented world,

... (and plenty of other things)

but it's, again, a concept, nevertheless, a definition that will always divide things also, because it being another concept.
and even more so,

it tends to turn someone also into a sheep of acceptance of almost everything, ignorance, and therefore become a driver towards dynamics of unconcern, passiveness towards forms of injustice, and part of the general driver to become ignorant, and become therefore, a participant of drivers towards conflict rich environments, and even war.
With the claim:

it's all part of the painting

I still have a moral compass also, and I wish not to be a member of such club, any club really, cause Socrates wins every time, with being the unknown as only certain factor.

Non dualism was a nice contender, but only offers, like any concept, a nice playing ground of ideas.
But one, I admit, I will go back to many times, for comfort.

I do want to thank everyone here involved, a genuine thanks, for participating, learning me some things around this, with, again , many great lessons and marvelous things I will certainly adapt, or try to adapt, for them to be real aspects, worthy of them to have them, or try.

But saying I'm now, or ever, become a member of this club ...no thank you.

That's one of the big reasons why it's important to retain some of the ego, so that people don't lose their conscience and their concerns as human beings. Age and DAM threw away their humanity, in case they ever had any. Yeah I don't think the world is really ready for nondualism, the average person isn't intelligent and sane enough to handle it properly. I guess that's why historically, it was usually only taught to bright seekers of truth in the first place.

I don't see nondualism (fundamental non-separateness in particular) as yet another concept, more like a fact that I can't explain modern science and philosophy (and existence in general) without.

[NEW]

I don't know about that.

It has a lot of potential, that is beside the point, and empirically proven.
an important point I forgot to make is the wonderful aspect to generate a more nuanced view, above, just a dual view, or aspects concerning any subject.

but utter, complete acceptance?

Every time I feel some consciousness bell ringing, saying ...what about injustice factors, to yourself and others ...are you capable to just let it swing away, just because it's "part of the painting"?

My moral consciousness, not particularity ego, just keeps on saying: no, can't do

ps don't be too harsh on members like you mentioned; they brought a lot of aspects inhere that are also very valuable. And I'm very grateful for it indeed!

[Atla]

I don't know about that.

It has a lot of potential, that is beside the point, and empirically proven.
an important point I forgot to make is the wonderful aspect to generate a more nuanced view, above, just a dual view, or aspects concerning any subject.

but utter, complete acceptance?

Every time I feel some consciousness bell ringing, saying ...what about injustice factors, to yourself and others ...are you capable to just let it swing away, just because it's "part of the painting"?

My moral consciousness, not particularity ego, just keeps on saying: no, can't do

ps don't be too harsh on members like you mentioned; they brought a lot of aspects inhere that are also very valuable. And I'm very grateful for it indeed!

That's what I'm arguing against and what the video I linked is about. "Part of the painting" is also a typical absolute-relative confusion. In Eastern philosophies it's common practice to divide understanding into "absolute" and "relative" understanding, and than largely keep those apart. (The "two truths doctrine" in Buddhism I think.)

Proper nondualism (espacially as in non-separateness), and the fundamentals of science and philosophy, and the ultimate questions of existence, mostly concern this absolute level of understanding. What the world is 'really' like, when you get down to it.

But we humans live in the everyday, relative, conventional scene and it's ridiculous to randomly mix the two understandings. Here people and things are pretty much (seen as) separate, injustices are injustices, an asshole is still an asshole, a psychopath is still a psychopath. People who think that the world is already perfect the way it is, are nuts, why would we have to completely accept it, or even like it or whatever?

It isn't nondualism that prohibits us from "saving" the world, it's another issue that made every other attempt at saving the world fail too, namely that most people are too dumb and malevolent.

[NEW]

I can follow you,

Can this "absolute" and "relative" understanding you talk about, by any chance be compared with the "relevance and relativity" factor I noticed within everyone? (more news around this later perhaps).

that most people are too dumb and malevolent...I must disagree, cause I have never seen any baby smashing each other heads to pieces. That's mostly because the conditioning, later put upon them.
I strongly believe that mankind is good in essence.