feedback requests around the experience of going beyond dual thought

[Dontaskme]

You're welcome, and thanks for your nonduality thread. We are waking up, and this is the really good news for a change.

Alan watts is great, he hits the nail for me everytime, such a fluent and lucid nondual speaker....

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you are welcome, and thank you for the discussion and understanding.

Alan Watts really knew "it" indeed, and unlike many others (including me), he had the gift to explain it very well.

I have spend many times listening trough his lectures (or fragments of them), just like he was my granddad that talks to it's grandchild, contemplating around life, trying to pass along his knowledge, entertaining me along a calm rainy evening with an open fire, with his stories...

And since I gather you had similar experiences trough your experiments,

Isn't it marvelous? The peace you find within those moments, the energy, the pureness, "goodness", the intertwining of things into some kind of singularity light point, resting place, where everything comes together.

and yet it is that obvious, even considered trivial (considered to many others).

It can happen when you are just chilling, or lying in bed contemplating, even in moments of utter unrest and unease/despair.

or even today, for instance, I experienced it eating a simple sandwich with cheese, not bulging it, waiting for that "good spot" that never comes,
but in the present being, fully, enjoying and experiencing every bite of it,
and I'm still enjoying it, long after I ate it, being grateful for the experience, like enjoying a subtle after taste of a fine wine ...

It's very peculiar indeed

Thanks for your comments which I enjoyed reading.

I was very young around the age of 4/5 years old when I had my first nondual glimpse of reality. I don't know why this happened to me so young, but it was almost like I was born to have a full blown awakening in this lifetime. But it wasn't until I was 20ish years old when I had the most amazing epithany that revealed to me that I was an eternal being. That moment totally blew me away, it came to me like a flash in the pan, just out of nowhere.

Before the internet I did not know about people like Alan Watts nor did I know about the many other famous sages...I'd always followed the most obvious teacher at the time, and that for me was Jesus, but the funniest thing is that I was heavily drawn to Sufi philosophy right from the very beginning of my search for truth, I just seemed to be enjoying sufi literature so much because it always made perfect sense in that it spoke directly to my heart.

I don't read anything at all now, because I understand what nonduality means, so I'm no longer searching...These days I'm just really happy to do nothing at all. I could literally stare at a blank wall for 24 hours day in day out and be in total bliss doing so. I also have no fear of anything, including death, in fact death to me is just another part of the journey, and it's the sheer mystery of it that really excites me. My family ask me if I ever get bored doing nothing, and I tell them no I never get bored. In fact I have a very hard time coming out of meditation sometimes because during such times I end up disappearing into some crazy zone that seems to suck me in deeper and deeper. It's the most amazing place to visit, and I love doing that, I could literally stay in that zone all day...having said that, I also have a physical life to live and such, like posting on this forum so there is never really enough hours in my day.

I love the eye image on the Watts video you posted, it's uncanny how the eye of a human being looks almost identical to that of a black hole event horizon. .now is that a coincidence or what?

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[NEW]

Thanks for your comments which I enjoyed reading.

I was very young around the age of 4/5 years old when I had my first nondual glimpse of reality. I don't know why this happened to me so young, but it was almost like I was born to have a full blown awakening in this lifetime. But it wasn't until I was 20ish years old when I had the most amazing epithany that revealed to me that I was an eternal being. That moment totally blew me away, it came to me like a flash in the pan, just out of nowhere.

Before the internet I did not know about people like Alan Watts nor did I know about the many other famous sages...I'd always followed the most obvious teacher at the time, and that for me was Jesus, but the funniest thing is that I was heavily drawn to Sufi philosophy right from the very beginning of my search for truth, I just seemed to be enjoying sufi literature so much because it always made perfect sense in that it spoke directly to my heart.

I don't read anything at all now, because I understand what nonduality means, so I'm no longer searching...These days I'm just really happy to do nothing at all. I could literally stare at a blank wall for 24 hours day in day out and be in total bliss doing so. I also have no fear of anything, including death, in fact death to me is just another part of the journey, and it's the sheer mystery of it that really excites me. My family ask me if I ever get bored doing nothing, and I tell them no I never get bored. In fact I have a very hard time coming out of meditation sometimes because during such times I end up disappearing into some crazy zone that seems to suck me in deeper and deeper. It's the most amazing place to visit, and I love doing that, I could literally stay in that zone all day...having said that, I also have a physical life to live and such, like posting on this forum so there is never really enough hours in my day.

I love the eye image on the Watts video you posted, it's uncanny how the eye of a human being looks almost identical to that of a black hole event horizon. .now is that a coincidence or what?

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Hey,

Likewise, a real pleasure to be able to discuss this with someone that has understanding towards this.

And, as my hunch was right (as previous mentioned here), being able to do so really puts everything more into place, and my surroundings here has less "problems" with me now, and I with them,
so this results into some sort of (psychological?) bridging and non issue really

Therefore also, my sincere gratitude

ps: talking about a black hole event, perhaps you should look into the works of Jon Hopkins (music).
I think you might be able to understand this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4sk0uDbM5lc

[Dontaskme]

Hey,

Likewise, a real pleasure to be able to discuss this with someone that has understanding towards this.

And, as my hunch was right (as previous mentioned here), being able to do so really puts everything more into place, and my surroundings here has less "problems" with me now, and I with them,
so this results into some sort of (psychological?) bridging and non issue really

Therefore also, my sincere gratitude

I'm delighted you are here, it's nice to find true connections and be able to share with like minded people who have gone through the awakening process. Please stick around and give it all you got here, don't be put off by the anti's .. I've been at it for a long while now, simply because it's my passion to express the nondual nature of reality.

ps: talking about a black hole event, perhaps you should look into the works of Jon Hopkins (music).
I think you might be able to understand this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4sk0uDbM5lc

Thank you, I will look into it.

Wow, that was amazing, golly gee it gave me goosebumps, I loved it. Thanks, I've never heard or seen that before, it's just astounding what you can find on the internet these days.



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[NEW]

I'm delighted you are here, it's nice to find true connections and be able to share with like minded people who have gone through the awakening process. Please stick around and give it all you got here, don't be put off by the anti's .. I've been at it for a long while now, simply because it's my passion to express the nondual nature of reality.
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Well, I got to say that I'm happy also that we've met.

Is it perhaps possible to discuss your story a bit further?
You don't have to answer me here, you can always pm me if you want.

"I was very young around the age of 4/5 years old when I had my first nondual glimpse of reality. I don't know why this happened to me so young, but it was almost like I was born to have a full blown awakening in this lifetime. But it wasn't until I was 20ish years old when I had the most amazing epithany that revealed to me that I was an eternal being. That moment totally blew me away, it came to me like a flash in the pan, just out of nowhere."

Wow, were you that young? 4/5 and 20?
Can I ask you if this developed and/or influenced you more early on? Cause it certainly looks like it.

And around that feeling of realizing you are an eternal being; although my personal feeling and hunches towards the same,
I really can't be sure,

but, within further inquiry, I did found something, just like almost anyone does really: "the infinity factor".
Just like a mathematician finds it with his numbers, astronomers finds it within the sky and space, ...

"I don't read anything at all now, because I understand what nonduality means, so I'm no longer searching..."

I think I know what you mean, Osho did the same after a while, for instance

"These days I'm just really happy to do nothing at all. I could literally stare at a blank wall for 24 hours day in day out and be in total bliss doing so. I also have no fear of anything, including death, in fact death to me is just another part of the journey, and it's the sheer mystery of it that really excites me. My family ask me if I ever get bored doing nothing, and I tell them no I never get bored. In fact I have a very hard time coming out of meditation sometimes because during such times I end up disappearing into some crazy zone that seems to suck me in deeper and deeper. It's the most amazing place to visit, and I love doing that, I could literally stay in that zone all day..."

While I'm more a continuous wanderer, and finding also peace within the unrest within that very never ending search, wandering, or within brainstorms, or producing art/works,
I have to say that I always end up with the same equations/synthesis lately,

and my work only consists with the same message now, but shaken into another variant, with the same message underneath.

Like one is "caught" within a fractal environment indeed.

having said that, I also have a physical life to live and such, like posting on this forum so there is never really enough hours in my day."

Does this influence much of your daily life?
Can you for instance still "function normally", or handle the difference with this non dual insight and existence, with the present culture surrounding you?
Don't you experience some sort of alienation, or discomfort, or defensive reactions from your environment?

Like I said earlier, this changed quite a bit with me, having made this post, and having discussions, like this one with you.

namasté

[Lacewing]

Isn't it marvelous? The peace you find within those moments, the energy, the pureness, "goodness", the intertwining of things into some kind of singularity light point, resting place, where everything comes together.

and yet it is that obvious, even considered trivial

It can happen when you are just chilling, or lying in bed contemplating, even in moments of utter unrest and unease/despair.

Yes, it is! To see that all is connected/one and perfect just as it is. It can be life-changing... even if everything appears to remain the same.

Personally, I do not identify myself, nor having that experience, with any particular idea, as I think that risks creating stories and religion around something that seems so present, accessible, and natural. I might also describe it as "seeing behind the curtain of human reality/limitation", and you can't "unsee" it! And yes, it can occur anytime... and for anyone, I think. That's why I don't like to assign a certain path or terminology to it... because that would seem to limit it.

We humans can have a tendency to get very excited about something we've "discovered". It reminds me of my chicken yard, when one of the chickens finds a little pebble, and then runs around as if it is a treasure, and the other chickens chase after them. Very exciting!! And there are pebbles everywhere. It's glorious... and easy to laugh about.

[NEW]

It reminds me of my chicken yard, when one of the chickens finds a little pebble, and then runs around as if it is a treasure, and the other chickens chase after them. Very exciting!! And there are pebbles everywhere. It's glorious... and easy to laugh about.

Hihi, a beautiful example of it really.
Animals really can be there as well, in the moment, and be just so playful

Personally, I do not identify myself, nor having that experience, with any particular idea, as I think that risks creating stories and religion around something that seems so present, accessible, and natural. I might also describe it as "seeing behind the curtain of human reality/limitation", and you can't "unsee" it! And yes, it can occur anytime... and for anyone, I think. That's why I don't like to assign a certain path or terminology to it... because that would seem to limit it.

I have got the same impression indeed. I'm simply not able to put it into a basket/definition.

Yes, it is! To see that all is connected/one and perfect just as it is. It can be life-changing... even if everything appears to remain the same.

Again, I agree, except that everything is perfect as it is.

When you are in such a moment, yes perhaps, but you are also able to see the difference with the rest (hence probably why you also can feel isolated).
It can be a really liberating moment, sorta speaking, but then you look at your surroundings, where everything is grey, calculated, put into baskets and definitions, area's, soda cans and stock values, ...while life is short and you can't grasp any more why everything is "imprisoned" like that, put into this dualistic conflict model of divide and conquer, where hardly anyone laughs, or be more playful.

while it is indeed possible and better to celebrate each other lives, with common things, and differences, that enables you to enrich yourself and others ...

And you simply want to give that treasure, that pebble, and all I received back is a blank stare, and a "nutter stamp"

If you know the story: Alike, it's very much like that: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PDHIyrfMl_U



Anyway, many thanks Lacewing, for your contribution, I'm very grateful for it, and

ps: you might just gave me inspiration towards an artwork, around ...pebbles

[Dontaskme]

I'm delighted you are here, it's nice to find true connections and be able to share with like minded people who have gone through the awakening process. Please stick around and give it all you got here, don't be put off by the anti's .. I've been at it for a long while now, simply because it's my passion to express the nondual nature of reality.
.

Well, I got to say that I'm happy also that we've met.

Is it perhaps possible to discuss your story a bit further?
You don't have to answer me here, you can always pm me if you want.

Thanks for the invitation to meet privately NEW .. but I do not engage in ''PM's with other people, unless they PM me first, to which I will reply out of common courtesy. But generally, I prefer to keep my personal life story about awakening impersonal so that everyone can read it. I am a lover of my own solitude where I am free to mingle with the whole world including everybody unconditionally without expectations or the desire to be liked or for seeking approval. I am happy to share my story impersonally for everyone to read, since everything and every one is me, and I am everything and every one anyway. Here I am only talking to myself and sharing what I find within myself anyway.

I enjoy reading Y(our) mental content so far, it's great to have another deep thinker on board here, so thanks for sharing your creative ideas, and please continue, it's always nice to discover more and more of the creative aspects of our selves, if you get my drift..

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[Dontaskme]

I also have a physical life to live and such, like posting on this forum so there is never really enough hours in my day."

Does this influence much of your daily life?
Can you for instance still "function normally", or handle the difference with this non dual insight and existence, with the present culture surrounding you?

I still function normally, as if nothing has changed, and yet inwardly, everything has changed for me, and I cannot talk about that radical shift in consciousness to other people in realtime, especially my family because I find they do not understand me, especially when I say things like ''I do not exist as a separate entity'' to them, so I tend to not discuss the nondual nature of existence too much to realtime entities like my family. So what I do in realtime is wear the mask of pretension where I am somebody in a world of other somebodies.. I'm sure you can relate to that?

Don't you experience some sort of alienation, or discomfort, or defensive reactions from your environment?

Yes, but it's like water off a ducks back for me now. I understand humans are just competing with themselves and others for attention most of the time, and that is when I just switch off and go into my zone and no one even knows I've disappeared. It's so cool to be able to do that! It's like you can be here, and not here at the same time, which is how I stay sane, while all around seem to be losing their minds. And it's like, if I see other people suffering mentally, it's like all I want to do is just be silent with them, and then maybe whisper so gently that everything will be ok, it really will, and is. If only people could see their feelings and thoughts for what they really are which is pure emptiness just like all the different images present in a dream that we see at night during sleep, only to realise those images and feelings were never real and never existed upon waking up from the dream.

Nondual awakening was the best thing that ever happened to me, because that apparent idea of ''me'' was seen to not exist, and it was a blessed relief, and so freeing and liberating. Having said all that, this life is seen from all angles for me now, it's an absolute horrific and evil horror show sometimes, but even so, I now know that the awareness I am is designed to endure what ever sweeps across it's screen, and so that knowing also brings relief and comfort, because awareness is built to bare and endure absolutely everything, and it clearly does.

.

[NEW]

I also have a physical life to live and such, like posting on this forum so there is never really enough hours in my day."

Does this influence much of your daily life?
Can you for instance still "function normally", or handle the difference with this non dual insight and existence, with the present culture surrounding you?

I still function normally, as if nothing has changed, and yet inwardly, everything has changed for me, and I cannot talk about that radical shift in consciousness to other people in realtime, especially my family because I find they do not understand me, especially when I say things like ''I do not exist as a separate entity'' to them, so I tend to not discuss the nondual nature of existence too much to realtime entities like my family. So what I do in realtime is wear the mask of pretension where I am somebody in a world of other somebodies.. I'm sure you can relate to that?

Don't you experience some sort of alienation, or discomfort, or defensive reactions from your environment?

Yes, but it's like water off a ducks back for me now. I understand humans are just competing with themselves and others for attention most of the time, and that is when I just switch off and go into my zone and no one even knows I've disappeared. It's so cool to be able to do that! It's like you can be here, and not here at the same time, which is how I stay sane, while all around seem to be losing their minds. And it's like, if I see other people suffering mentally, it's like all I want to do is just be silent with them, and then maybe whisper so gently that everything will be ok, it really will, and is. If only people could see their feelings and thoughts for what they really are which is pure emptiness just like all the different images present in a dream that we see at night during sleep, only to realise those images and feelings were never real and never existed upon waking up from the dream.

Nondual awakening was the best thing that ever happened to me, because that apparent idea of ''me'' was seen to not exist, and it was a blessed relief, and so freeing and liberating. Having said all that, this life is seen from all angles for me now, it's an absolute horrific and evil horror show sometimes, but even so, I now know that the awareness I am is designed to endure what ever sweeps across it's screen, and so that knowing also brings relief and comfort, because awareness is built to bare and endure absolutely everything, and it clearly does.

.

Hey,

many thanks for the responses

Why I asked you this, was because of a hunch that, just because you experienced this so early, you are able to handle it better with no real issues.

And I think your responses proved this to be right

This while I experienced it only later on in life, and very much conditioned towards the current cultural "reality membrane" (that gave me nothing but a depression signals)...
so you can imagine it pretty much was a shock to experience this, resulting in a backlash/mental breakdown with some chronic negative aspects, and isolation to boot.
Which is very peculiar indeed, since you found out how to be more playful and loving, etc ...and while you want to offer this "pebble" of a gift to others, you end up more and more depressed and isolated as a result

So while with you it's like water off a ducks back, I must admit I still struggle with this I must say.
Although, as mentioned before, the discussions here are really helping me a lot.

[Lacewing]

Yes, it is! To see that all is connected/one and perfect just as it is. It can be life-changing... even if everything appears to remain the same.

Again, I agree, except that everything is perfect as it is.

When you are in such a moment, yes perhaps, but you are also able to see the difference with the rest (hence probably why you also can feel isolated).

My impressions... There are likely all kinds of degrees and variances for each person's experience. If there is some idea of difference or otherness, then that's still some dual thought, yes? But, that's not a bad thing! It's what we humans are about. That's the artwork of this physical world. It's not something that must be rejected... but rather embraced as part of the artwork and the whole. We simply don't want to be mindlessly driven by dual thoughts.

In my experience of those moments of awareness of oneness, I am also aware of the human character I am amidst all human characters on this holographic stage. I remember wishing that I could live/stay/share in that state of awareness WITH other people... and wondering what kind of world and life that might be. But for whatever reasons, THIS is the movie I'm in, flashing briefly across a screen in a rush of color and sights and sounds, and there's no need to reject it when I've seen/experienced that it's already perfect and complete and whole. I might as well embrace this experience/moment and live it. Not try to escape it or imagine that I'm bigger/better than it is. It is the cosmic painting I am part of, and it's magnificent. The canvas will be painted over soon enough. Doesn't matter... and everything is fine.

Ironically, even the non-dual concept can be turned into separatist religion. I don't like the way religions reject being a human while pretending to be associated with some greater glory. Imagine if an element of a painting rose off the canvas and insisted indignantly that it was better than the painting?

[NEW]

Yes, it is! To see that all is connected/one and perfect just as it is. It can be life-changing... even if everything appears to remain the same.

Again, I agree, except that everything is perfect as it is.

When you are in such a moment, yes perhaps, but you are also able to see the difference with the rest (hence probably why you also can feel isolated).

My impressions... There are likely all kinds of degrees and variances for each person's experience. If there is some idea of difference or otherness, then that's still some dual thought, yes? But, that's not a bad thing! It's what we humans are about. That's the artwork of this physical world. It's not something that must be rejected... but rather embraced as part of the artwork and the whole. We simply don't want to be mindlessly driven by dual thoughts.

In my experience of those moments of awareness of oneness, I am also aware of the human character I am amidst all human characters on this holographic stage. I remember wishing that I could live/stay/share in that state of awareness WITH other people... and wondering what kind of world and life that might be. But for whatever reasons, THIS is the movie I'm in, flashing briefly across a screen in a rush of color and sights and sounds, and there's no need to reject it when I've seen/experienced that it's already perfect and complete and whole. I might as well embrace this experience/moment and live it. Not try to escape it or imagine that I'm bigger/better than it is. It is the cosmic painting I am part of, and it's magnificent. The canvas will be painted over soon enough. Doesn't matter... and everything is fine.

Ironically, even the non-dual concept can be turned into separatist religion. I don't like the way religions reject being a human while pretending to be associated with some greater glory. Imagine if an element of a painting rose off the canvas and insisted indignantly that it was better than the painting?

I think I can follow you there, but doesn't this make way for total acceptance, including injustice factors to become the norm?
while you accept everything as part of the painting, others are discriminated and worse ...I have real trouble with this for plenty of reasons.

But granted, towards your argument; I tried to spread this on a micro level, to come up with at least some mutual understanding, and as mentioned before, all I get are blank stares, even defensive reactions (trough conditioning factors) and a nut stamp ...(good that I like nuts, they are very nutritious )

Even my artworks are labeled this way, and get the same responses, trough it's minimal and often easy feel of "I can do this too", only difference is; they don't )

Talking about artworks: Your pebble story inspired me to generate one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G6QHVJpPmSQ

another (non) conceptual variant around UNity through diversity. Every pebble is the same, but at the same time unique as well

Many thanks for the inspiration and kick in the butt Lacewing, towards finally generating a piece around little pebbles!

[Lacewing]

I think I can follow you there, but doesn't this make way for total acceptance

Yes... from the perspective of going beyond dual thought. Doesn't going beyond dual thought mean there is nothing we're comparing to (or separating from) because it's all one, right? In my own experience, that awareness/sense of oneness felt like perfection of ALL without judgment. A sense of that stays with me (sometimes I'm more aware of it than other times), even though I'm right back sharing this intoxicating stage with everyone.

including injustice factors to become the norm?
while you accept everything as part of the painting, others are discriminated and worse ...I have real trouble with this for plenty of reasons.

But granted, towards your argument; I tried to spread this on a micro level, to come up with at least some mutual understanding, and as mentioned before, all I get are blank stares, even defensive reactions (trough conditioning factors) and a nut stamp …

Accepting doesn't mean it's pleasant or easy or fair... or any of the other judgments humans might try to apply to it. I think EVERYTHING IS part of the artwork. ALL of the colors and textures. A magnificent explosion of possibilities being explored and manifested in so many directions. Wow!

I remember loving horror movies when I was young. They were so thrilling! I knew they weren't real or serious. I knew they were images on a screen. I knew it was a "show". Our life experience is super multi-dimensional. It's very real for us -- which may be the best kind of show, right? If we feel trapped by it, or a victim of it (or we think others are), it's not going to be very enjoyable -- but on some level, we may be producing, directing, and starring in it. (I'm suddenly reminded of stories of so many people who have died or nearly died, who knew everything was okay and/or sent such messages to their surviving, grieving family members.) When we tune into the concept of all being one, without the pains of human judgment and seriousness, our experience can take on a different quality. We may still get run over by a truck -- or suffer through years of abuse or hardship -- but I think embracing the quality of each moment, in that moment, is really all there "is".

Such ideas are not easy to wrap our heads around, let alone communicate or share with a lot of people. Most people are in a movie, and they may not want you turning on the theater lights! People believe their movies... and identify with their movies. And most of all, maybe, it's not even necessary to turn on the theater lights because everything is FINE! When we can feel that, then we might be better able to direct our path through the show more mindfully.

[NEW]

Yeah, I think I can follow your arguments.

I know the path of acceptance, and the great value and strength of it.

Like for instance the isolation I experienced. For a long time it was not experienced as a good thing, pure agony even.
Trough accepting it as just another conditioning factor, I stepped away from it, and things became much better at times,
so that issue sometimes became a positive factor even, something you stopped worrying about.

Very peculiar indeed, it was like this acceptance released me from something, some kind of pressure, that was not even mine to begin with ...like an external thing forced a conditioning on me that was not there from the beginning, nor it was my own wish from my "self" really ...very tough to describe ...but I think you can understand the result: like a huge weight of my shoulders just fell away.

[Lacewing]

it was like this acceptance released me from something, some kind of pressure

Yes...like that! That is a good example. Acceptance... is freeing. Acceptance does not mean complacency. Resistance locks us up. Before we know it, our resistance drives us and owns us. "No resistance" is a method for freeing ourselves from very binding energy (I think). If there is acceptance of the world (and ourselves) as a whole of many forms -- we release the pressure cooker of resistance, and can see and think in more ways.

It's interesting to see when thoughts and behaviors that we think protect and guide us, are actually enslaving and blinding us.

[NEW]

it was like this acceptance released me from something, some kind of pressure

Yes...like that! That is a good example. Acceptance... is freeing. Acceptance does not mean complacency. Resistance locks us up. Before we know it, our resistance drives us and owns us. "No resistance" is a method for freeing ourselves from very binding energy (I think). If there is acceptance of the world (and ourselves) as a whole of many forms -- we release the pressure cooker of resistance, and can see and think in more ways.

It's interesting to see when thoughts and behaviors that we think protect and guide us, are actually enslaving and blinding us.

You may be so right, it brings a tear to my eyes (genuinely)

This brought me to another question, within the medical / psychology field.

I brought this option up towards a possible relevant alternative therapy, within many subjects, and again the struggle and denial starts within those fields ...
(no wander really since it is based upon a conditioning towards a dualistic fight and conformity upon itself ...)

But considering doctors taking their basic oath of Hippocrates, and not able to even comprehend this ...is a mystery to me ... since it is a possible win win towards their oath, and preventing/handling deceases, more away from just symptomatic treatment... and they just shake it away ...

It's like they are fouling their own nest, just to make a point, ...their own stubbornness of being ...