feedback requests around the experience of going beyond dual thought

[NEW]

Did anyone here experienced this, or experimented with it?

And what are your thoughts/impressions around it?

Many thanks for your input.

[Eodnhoj7]

Did anyone here experienced this, or experimented with it?

And what are your thoughts/impressions around it?

Many thanks for your input.

You become more sympathetic to people's pain, regardless of your degree of actual input in the situation, and you suffer more because of it.

On a more positive note, you percieve connections amidst a variety of phenomenon more often and are able to rationalize percievably distant phenomenon has having causal relationships. In simpler terms, you percieve far more patterns than most people observe at face value.

In seeing these patterns you have to provide a detailed explanation as to how these patterns are connected, other wise you will be deemed as crazy. This forces one to master the nature of language and critical thinking.

For example something as seemingly seperate as sound and geometry are connected under a unified view of the universe. To connect these seemingly distant phenomenon you need more proof in order to justify your non dual perspective, hence research and analytical thinking becomes a primary tool that needs developed. Sand on sound speakers backs up this example as different sound waves result in different geometric patterns being produced.

[Atla]

Did anyone here experienced this, or experimented with it?

And what are your thoughts/impressions around it?

Many thanks for your input.

Well it's the correct philosophical "metaparadigm", but leads out of Western philosophy and into unknown territory (unknown for us). It automatically solves like half of philosophical problems or more, including the Hard problem, and sheds light on the nature of our existence / our "true self" etc. etc.
It's more like reverting to the state "prior" to dual thought, rather than going "beyond" it. It sort of contains dual thought as a special case. It's all best explained by Alan Watts imo, there are many vids from him on Youtube. It can take a few months/years to really get it.

Most people on this forum who claim to be nondualists are merely crackpots though, just saying.

[NEW]

Hey,

Many thanks for the feedback.

Concerning my personal experiences with this, I can only confirm most of what here has been said.

My impressions and some results indicate indeed that going beyond dual thinking (I do this more trough a non linear, chaotic approach towards a subject) can provide you indeed with a more inclusive insight at times.

And with the side result; that you indeed be deemed as crazy cause it's not easy to grasp, and due to some results turning h-wire does not help either.
(not to mention, indeed, what you are able to feel, and therefore suffer)
--

What I like to include also;

- Because this leads out of Western thinking, I also have to mention an alienation/distancing of some sort happening.
Can anyone relate to this?

- Next to that, related to the previous, I experience some difficulties trying to fill the gap, or bridge in between those lines of thinking (Western thinking and non dual), resulting in frustrations and defensive stands.
While this is not the intention of course. I think I know now on why this is happening (conditioning factors that generates defensive factors accordingly)

Anyone knows a way to handle/bridge this nevertheless?
Cause I really do feel at times, what that man feels, dragged out of plato's cave, and returning to the cave to try and tell the tale ...
( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=69F7GhASOdM )

Many thanks

[Atla]

What I like to include also;

- Because this leads out of Western thinking, I also have to mention an alienation/distancing of some sort happening.
Can anyone relate to this?

- Next to that, related to the previous, I experience some difficulties trying to fill the gap, or bridge in between those lines of thinking (Western thinking and non dual), resulting in frustrations and defensive stands.
While this is not the intention of course. I think I know now on why this is happening (conditioning factors that generates defensive factors accordingly)

Anyone knows a way to handle/bridge this nevertheless?
Cause I really do feel at times, what that man feels, dragged out of plato's cave, and returning to the cave to try and tell the tale ...
( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=69F7GhASOdM )

Well my experience has been that the alienation/distancing is unavoidable, and it's simply not possible to bridge the gap. Maybe in 100 years, but not now. Current Western culture is just plain incompatible with nondualism, and it also requires a fair amount of intelligence and openness to even grasp it. That's why I only experiment with talking about it on philosophy forums, and even there 90% of people have no idea what I mean. Talking about it in everyday life, I would only be seen and written off as crazy, a lunatic, but achieve nothing.

So imo just keep acting like everyone else does in the cave, and forget about improving the world. After a while the original ignorant state can be readopted quite well, it won't even really matter that there's something "beyond" it.

But then again I'm also still trying to fully figure out how to handle this whole situation, maybe others came up with better ways.

[Age]

Did anyone here experienced this, or experimented with it?

And what are your thoughts/impressions around it?

Many thanks for your input.

Thinking, itself, is duality as thoughts could be right/true or wrong/false.

Whereas,

Knowing, Itself, is nondual as It can only be True and Right.

So, if you are only asking for "thoughts/impressions", then you will only get duality.

If, however, you want to Truly go beyond duality thought/thinking, then you need to get to Knowing, which is already within 'you' anyway.

[NEW]

Thinking, itself, is duality as thoughts could be right/true or wrong/false.

Whereas,

Knowing, Itself, is nondual as It can only be True and Right.

So, if you are only asking for "thoughts/impressions", then you will only get duality.

If, however, you want to Truly go beyond duality thought/thinking, then you need to get to Knowing, which is already within 'you' anyway.

Many thanks for your feedback, and it is much appreciated!
You certainly made your point trough this very post you made:

Although I do not agree fully, I indeed forgot to mention another aspect of this; and that is that I found the limitations of going beyond dual thinking, or non dual, ...and this can be found in language upon itself.

There I found that very fabric of thinking, and expressing things beyond the duality factor can be very tough, simply due to the fact that our language is not ready for it. The vocabulary for it simply isn't quite there, since almost everything is focused upon that, very limited, duality factor.

Hence perhaps, why most "non dualists" focuses on silence, perhaps.

[Age]

Thinking, itself, is duality as thoughts could be right/true or wrong/false.

Whereas,

Knowing, Itself, is nondual as It can only be True and Right.

So, if you are only asking for "thoughts/impressions", then you will only get duality.

If, however, you want to Truly go beyond duality thought/thinking, then you need to get to Knowing, which is already within 'you' anyway.

Many thanks for your feedback, and it is much appreciated!
You certainly made your point trough this very post you made:

Although I do not agree fully, I indeed forgot to mention another aspect of this; and that is that I found the limitations of going beyond dual thinking, or non dual, ...and this can be found in language upon itself.

There I found that very fabric of thinking, and expressing things beyond the duality factor can be very tough, simply due to the fact that our language is not ready for it. The vocabulary for it simply isn't quite there, since almost everything is focused upon that, very limited, duality factor.

What i have found is expressing nondual is very easy, simply due to the fact that it is very well understood and that language has been evolving to express and explain nondual, when the time is right. The vocabulary is made specifically for this purpose and it is very simple indeed. Human beings, through duality thinking, just confuses and makes hard what is essentially truly very simple and easy.

Remember only 'you', human beings, are "focused" on the limited duality. As I implied this is held up in thoughts and thinking.

Hence perhaps, why most "non dualists" focuses on silence, perhaps.

"Most" might say they focus on silence, but "they" also do have a very strong tendency to want to share and express this "silence" through language, which is obviously dualistic in nature. One overrides the other, which thee Truth of will soon be revealed, heard, and seen/understood.

[NEW]

What I like to include also;

- Because this leads out of Western thinking, I also have to mention an alienation/distancing of some sort happening.
Can anyone relate to this?

- Next to that, related to the previous, I experience some difficulties trying to fill the gap, or bridge in between those lines of thinking (Western thinking and non dual), resulting in frustrations and defensive stands.
While this is not the intention of course. I think I know now on why this is happening (conditioning factors that generates defensive factors accordingly)

Anyone knows a way to handle/bridge this nevertheless?
Cause I really do feel at times, what that man feels, dragged out of plato's cave, and returning to the cave to try and tell the tale ...
( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=69F7GhASOdM )

Well my experience has been that the alienation/distancing is unavoidable, and it's simply not possible to bridge the gap. Maybe in 100 years, but not now. Current Western culture is just plain incompatible with nondualism, and it also requires a fair amount of intelligence and openness to even grasp it. That's why I only experiment with talking about it on philosophy forums, and even there 90% of people have no idea what I mean. Talking about it in everyday life, I would only be seen and written off as crazy, a lunatic, but achieve nothing.

So imo just keep acting like everyone else does in the cave, and forget about improving the world. After a while the original ignorant state can be readopted quite well, it won't even really matter that there's something "beyond" it.

But then again I'm also still trying to fully figure out how to handle this whole situation, maybe others came up with better ways.

Hey Atla,

After some evaluation,
this is sound advice. Many thanks!

Although this also feels like telling Armstrong, and his rocket fueled up, ready to go to the moon, to not go ...I don't think I can do it, simply going back and "watch mindless game shows or soap opera's" (as a matter of speaking) during my remaining time here.

It would feel like wasted time really, of unreached potential and possible aid, even if it's 100 years from now.

But at the same time, I must concur with your advice to also take others into consideration, and keep acting like everyone else "in the cave" also, sorta speak.

And since you are also struggling with this,
I may have a solution that could serve both means, and possible bridging.

Could we perhaps get more acquainted and possibly have some discussions around this, more private? (and perhaps with some others as well, interested in exploring this)

This way we could perhaps do some exploring, so that this side is fulfilled, so we are able to go back to the cave at any time also with a peace of mind.

I know I would appreciate such a thing, cause right now I'm driving my surroundings mad and defensive with my alienated thinking,
This might become a non issue when I could communicate once in a while with someone, that has more understanding towards this.

Please pm me if you might be interested.

Either way, thanks for your info and advice around this matter.

[Atla]

Hey Atla,

After some evaluation,
this is sound advice. Many thanks!

Although this also feels like telling Armstrong, and his rocket fueled up, ready to go to the moon, to not go ...I don't think I can do it, simply going back and "watch mindless game shows or soap opera's" (as a matter of speaking) during my remaining time here.

It would feel like wasted time really, of unreached potential and possible aid, even if it's 100 years from now.

But at the same time, I must concur with your advice to also take others into consideration, and keep acting like everyone else "in the cave" also, sorta speak.

And since you are also struggling with this,
I may have a solution that could serve both means, and possible bridging.

Could we perhaps get more acquainted and possibly have some discussions around this, more private? (and perhaps with some others as well, interested in exploring this)

This way we could perhaps do some exploring, so that this side is fulfilled, so we are able to go back to the cave at any time also with a peace of mind.

I know I would appreciate such a thing, cause right now I'm driving my surroundings mad and defensive with my alienated thinking,
This might become a non issue when I could communicate once in a while with someone, that has more understanding towards this.

Please pm me if you might be interested.

Either way, thanks for your info and advice around this matter.

To be honest I don't really like to talk about nondualism in private. It has become uninteresting to me, there's not much to say and it's a bit annoying/painful because I don't like to be reminded of the social alienation.
We aren't all that alone though, I think there are hundreds of millions of Buddhists and Advaitans etc. out there who are like us. They are simply mostly living on the other side of the globe. They say you can walk around in India, say the things you drive your surroundings mad with, and everyone there will agree there with you with a 'well duh' attitude. You can find them online here and there as well. I think there's a nondualism forum also somewhere.

[NEW]

To be honest I don't really like to talk about nondualism in private. It has become uninteresting to me, there's not much to say and it's a bit annoying/painful because I don't like to be reminded of the social alienation.
We aren't all that alone though, I think there are hundreds of millions of Buddhists and Advaitans etc. out there who are like us. They are simply mostly living on the other side of the globe. They say you can walk around in India, say the things you drive your surroundings mad with, and everyone there will agree there with you with a 'well duh' attitude. You can find them online here and there as well. I think there's a nondualism forum also somewhere.

No worries, it was just a suggestion.

Anyway plenty of thanks for your suggestions!

[Dontaskme]

Did anyone here experienced this, or experimented with it?

And what are your thoughts/impressions around it?

Many thanks for your input.

I did this experiment and found there to be no body/person to go beyond dual thought. And that any notion of a person was just a thought, which is the dual aspect of my beingness.. where I am created via identification with the thought arising in me ...but this thought of me couldn't go beyond because it's the totally still and unmovable awareness that I am...and so my expriment showed me that ( thinker and thought ) are inseparably ONE in the instantaneous moment, and that duality aka the knower and the known cannot exist separately, and that the mental dynamic of duality work in conjunction arising simultaneously together in and by association.

For example: A thought is an object known...but the knower of the object known can never be the object known.The knower is only ever the blank gap between thoughts, and a thought is made of the same blankness, otherwise known as empty space.

That blank gap is who you are in reality. But then what the emptiness does is it fills itself in, which creates an artificial overlay upon itself in the form of a duality, but it's always and ever a nondual duality.

How does that sound to you?

PS, nonduality is in fact a very beautiful concept when fully seen for what it is. It's the end of mental suffering, so it's a really positive subject, despite negative opposition to it, which you sometimes get on this forum.

The idea of self awareness is that every single thinking sentient creature on earth will eventually become familar with the true nature of their reality and there may even be a sigh of sweet relief, or shock and horror, who knows, the mind is a powerful force indeed when it comes to certain beliefs...albeit illusory.

When Einstein said '' The world is an illusion albeit a persistent one'' ...never had there been a more truer and accurate quote ever quoted, the quote is absolutely spot on.

.

[NEW]

I did this experiment and found there to be no body/person to go beyond dual thought. And that any notion of a person was just a thought, which is the dual aspect of my beingness.. where I am created via identification with the thought arising in me ...but this thought of me couldn't go beyond because it's the totally still and unmovable awareness that I am...and so my expriment showed me that ( thinker and thought ) are inseparably ONE in the instantaneous moment, and that duality aka the knower and the known cannot exist separately, and that the mental dynamic of duality work in conjunction arising simultaneously together in and by association.

For example: A thought is an object known...but the knower of the object known can never be the object known.The knower is only ever the blank gap between thoughts, and a thought is made of the same blankness, otherwise known as empty space.

That blank gap is who you are in reality. But then what the emptiness does is it fills itself in, which creates an artificial overlay upon itself in the form of a duality, but it's always and ever a nondual duality.

How does that sound to you?

PS, nonduality is in fact a very beautiful concept when fully seen for what it is. It's the end of mental suffering, so it's a really positive subject, despite negative opposition to it, which you sometimes get on this forum.

The idea of self awareness is that every single thinking sentient creature on earth will eventually become familar with the true nature of their reality and there may even be a sigh of sweet relief, or shock and horror, who knows, the mind is a powerful force indeed when it comes to certain beliefs...albeit illusory.

When Einstein said '' The world is an illusion albeit a persistent one'' ...never had there been a more truer and accurate quote ever quoted, the quote is absolutely spot on.

.

Many thanks Dontaskme, although I have some difficulty grasping the first part of it.
Are you trying to say perhaps, as mentioned earliar here on this tread, that your experiment kept getting stuck within definitions and language conditioning / and therefore "thinking" like that?

Perhaps try some experimentation with meditation, and experiencing things, but without thought/thinker, or any other definitions, I would suggest.

But I think you did that cause this generates more of a stream, and you feel the entanglement of everything becoming "one". Not just thinker/thoughts, but also past, present, future, feelings, emotions, reasoning, intuition ...
And in such moments I felt I was an unique being, and one with everything.

It's very hard to explain, maybe Alan watts explained it best here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=51axSV2xgj0

The second part is clear and I have to concur with that.

Anyway, many thanks for this contribution!

[Dontaskme]

I did this experiment and found there to be no body/person to go beyond dual thought. And that any notion of a person was just a thought, which is the dual aspect of my beingness.. where I am created via identification with the thought arising in me ...but this thought of me couldn't go beyond because it's the totally still and unmovable awareness that I am...and so my expriment showed me that ( thinker and thought ) are inseparably ONE in the instantaneous moment, and that duality aka the knower and the known cannot exist separately, and that the mental dynamic of duality work in conjunction arising simultaneously together in and by association.

For example: A thought is an object known...but the knower of the object known can never be the object known.The knower is only ever the blank gap between thoughts, and a thought is made of the same blankness, otherwise known as empty space.

That blank gap is who you are in reality. But then what the emptiness does is it fills itself in, which creates an artificial overlay upon itself in the form of a duality, but it's always and ever a nondual duality.

How does that sound to you?

PS, nonduality is in fact a very beautiful concept when fully seen for what it is. It's the end of mental suffering, so it's a really positive subject, despite negative opposition to it, which you sometimes get on this forum.

The idea of self awareness is that every single thinking sentient creature on earth will eventually become familar with the true nature of their reality and there may even be a sigh of sweet relief, or shock and horror, who knows, the mind is a powerful force indeed when it comes to certain beliefs...albeit illusory.

When Einstein said '' The world is an illusion albeit a persistent one'' ...never had there been a more truer and accurate quote ever quoted, the quote is absolutely spot on.

.

Many thanks Dontaskme, although I have some difficulty grasping the first part of it.
Are you trying to say perhaps, as mentioned earliar here on this tread, that your experiment kept getting stuck within definitions and language conditioning / and therefore "thinking" like that?

No, I didn't mean I was getting stuck, I was basically saying that there is no one to get stuck or go beyond the dual nature of reality. Stating that the me that I believed myself to be was just a temporal passing thought within the still unmoved awareness that is my real nature. so the stuck part to me, is when the thought is mistaken to be the presence of being and not just the passing cloud within that presence.
I understand this is difficult to put into words, and that words can be misinterpreted to mean all sorts of other ideas that are opposed to what's actually being intended or meant.

Perhaps try some experimentation with meditation, and experiencing things, but without thought/thinker, or any other definitions, I would suggest.

Yes, and that's exactly how I conducted this experiment, but I understand that being able to express what I discovered is very difficult or most likey impossible to put into words so that another being would understand it in a way that it has also been their experience too.

But I think you did that cause this generates more of a stream, and you feel the entanglement of everything becoming "one". Not just thinker/thoughts, but also past, present, future, feelings, emotions, reasoning, intuition ...
And in such moments I felt I was an unique being, and one with everything.

Yes, exactly, I agree ..so thanks for your response.

It's very hard to explain, maybe Alan watts explained it best here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=51axSV2xgj0

The second part is clear and I have to concur with that.

Anyway, many thanks for this contribution!

You're welcome, and thanks for your nonduality thread. We are waking up, and this is the really good news for a change.

Alan watts is great, he hits the nail for me everytime, such a fluent and lucid nondual speaker....

.

[NEW]

You're welcome, and thanks for your nonduality thread. We are waking up, and this is the really good news for a change.

Alan watts is great, he hits the nail for me everytime, such a fluent and lucid nondual speaker....

.

you are welcome, and thank you for the discussion and understanding.

Alan Watts really knew "it" indeed, and unlike many others (including me), he had the gift to explain it very well.

I have spend many times listening trough his lectures (or fragments of them), just like he was my granddad that talks to it's grandchild, contemplating around life, trying to pass along his knowledge, entertaining me along a calm rainy evening with an open fire, with his stories...

And since I gather you had similar experiences trough your experiments,

Isn't it marvelous? The peace you find within those moments, the energy, the pureness, "goodness", the intertwining of things into some kind of singularity light point, resting place, where everything comes together.

and yet it is that obvious, even considered trivial (considered to many others).

It can happen when you are just chilling, or lying in bed contemplating, even in moments of utter unrest and unease/despair.

or even today, for instance, I experienced it eating a simple sandwich with cheese, not bulging it, waiting for that "good spot" that never comes,
but in the present being, fully, enjoying and experiencing every bite of it,
and I'm still enjoying it, long after I ate it, being grateful for the experience, like enjoying a subtle after taste of a fine wine ...

It's very peculiar indeed