Muslims/Mexicans Are Taking Over

[dorothea]

Well, I do not quite a lot about Islam and would like to know the answer to some questions please (my questions are real, not rhetorical). 1. The so-called beautiful life of the prophet was of carnality and violence according to Thomas Aquinas, who knew more about it than anyone alive today. How do you reconcile that (eg the rape of little Aisha) with your own ethical life? 2. Why is there not one single Muslim-ruled country out of more than 50 that is not corrupt, cruel and repressive? . 3. We all know that documents and records of historical events, even from our own lifetimes are unreliable and subject to change. Islam, like Mormonism, make extravagant and implausible claims about history, the Koran, hadiths and so on. You are not a credulous person or you would not be on this site - so what do really think you can with certainty believe?

[OuterLimits]

Has this forum gone absolutely fucking mad?

No, this happens every now and then when some other forum collapses or expels members.

What's happening is the ideology of liberal leftism which has dominated for centuries is collapsing.

Have you read Pinker's "Better Angels of our Nature"?

Most people seem to be ignorant of falling war and strife generally around the world, and the connection of this phenomena with greater inclusion both emotionally and economically.

[FlashDangerpants]

Islamic tenets

Something you know nothing about most likely?

Tell me briefly how you understand the relationship between tawhid and ahkam.

Don't waste your time starting on me. I saw a couple of your posts and I don't give a fuck about you. If you aren't just Gustav returned under a new name to escape a ban you're not interestingly different from that ****.

[Arising_uk]

...
I think so. It seems me and Seleucus are one of the few sane ones here. ...

The tranny and the muslim, nice ring.

[Arising_uk]

What's happening is the ideology of liberal leftism which has dominated for centuries is collapsing.

No really, it's because whatever forum you used to inhabit has collapsed, banned you or just plain bored with you. Or maybe it's just that you're that type of interweeble who has to flit from forum to forum to justify yourself. Whatever, you'll be off or banned sooner or later.

[Sir-Sister-of-Suck]

since you didn't answer the question about probably the important concepts in Islam, tawhid and ahkam, it's a fair guess you don't know anything about Islam either

I don't see how that logically follows. I mean, if a grown adult wearing a minecraft tee came up to me in a mall, and asked if I have ever shoved peanut butter up my butt, I wouldn't answer that question, either; Just because someone doesn't answer the question, doesn't mean that person doesn't know anything about the question, or even has the full answer. Chances are, he just doesn't want to encourage such behavior.

[Seleucus]

No, this happens every now and then when some other forum collapses or expels members.

What's happening is the ideology of liberal leftism which has dominated for centuries is collapsing.

Have you read Pinker's "Better Angels of our Nature"?

Most people seem to be ignorant of falling war and strife generally around the world, and the connection of this phenomena with greater inclusion both emotionally and economically.

So you're saying that the long decline in violence is undermining the legitimacy of political correctness since PC depends on the assigning of victims and oppressors? In the absence of real victims and persecutors PC turns up trivialities, vagaries, and absurdities like micro-aggression, systemic racism, and no borders, or simply runs out of outrage fuel?

[Seleucus]

Islamic tenets

Something you know nothing about most likely?

Tell me briefly how you understand the relationship between tawhid and ahkam.

Don't waste your time starting on me. I saw a couple of your posts and I don't give a fuck about you. If you aren't just Gustav returned under a new name to escape a ban you're not interestingly different from that ****.

since you didn't answer the question about probably the important concepts in Islam, tawhid and ahkam, it's a fair guess you don't know anything about Islam either

I don't see how that logically follows. I mean, if a grown adult wearing a minecraft tee came up to me in a mall, and asked if I have ever shoved peanut butter up my butt, I wouldn't answer that question, either; Just because someone doesn't answer the question, doesn't mean that person doesn't know anything about the question, or even has the full answer. Chances are, he just doesn't want to encourage such behavior.

So, these obscene rants can be guessed to likely confirm that these two who have been on for pages quarreling about "Islamic tenets" and "teachings of the islamic faith" don't know the first thing about Islam.

[OuterLimits]

So you're saying that the long decline in violence is undermining the legitimacy of political correctness since PC depends on the assigning of victims and oppressors? In the absence of real victims and persecutors PC turns up trivialities, vagaries, and absurdities like micro-aggression, systemic racism, and no borders, or simply runs out of outrage fuel?

Undermining PC but also showing overall tendencies toward tolerance and inclusion.

[Sir-Sister-of-Suck]

rants

Wasn't really a rant, but an example of some other reason why someone might not answer a question from someone.

don't know the first thing about Islam

It's actually not even required that we do. We stated that Islam has tenets, but we never really delve into the specific details of what these tenets are or mean - the conversation never got that far - in a much more blanket way, we were mostly discussing if it's acceptable to hate someone based on a set of tenets, period, though islam being the obvious catalyst for why I brought this into question.

Your ridiculous criteria isn't exactly relevant to the discussion, as you believe it to be.

[Seleucus]

Well, I do not quite a lot about Islam and would like to know the answer to some questions please (my questions are real, not rhetorical). 1. The so-called beautiful life of the prophet was of carnality and violence according to Thomas Aquinas, who knew more about it than anyone alive today.

Okay, the work is here,

https://ia800203.us.archive.org/32/item ... omuoft.pdf

The section,

http://www.opusdeialert.com/st-thomas-a ... hammed.htm

How do you reconcile that (eg the rape of little Aisha) with your own ethical life?

Well my wife was well older than 6 when we wed so no reconciliation with my own ethical life needed! I guess you know the difference between what today we call "statutory rape" and "rape" anyway. It was the tradition back then, Greeks and Romans too: men wed in the area of 30, women around menarche. Looks like Aisha's first period was around the snormal time for a well fed girl and apparently even in hunter gather societies women have their first child within a couple years of menarche. link So, beginning a sex life relatively very young has been the norm for a long long time I guess? Seems to be confirmed by Magnus Hirschfeld Archive for Sexology, http://www.sexarchive.info/GESUND/ARCHI ... _INDEX.HTM

2. Why is there not one single Muslim-ruled country out of more than 50 that is not corrupt, cruel and repressive? .

My theory is it's due to the effects of the Middle East living under imperialism for about 5000 years. It's not per say an Islam problem exactly, Islam is just one chapter in a story going all the way back to Sargon.

3. We all know that documents and records of historical events, even from our own lifetimes are unreliable and subject to change. Islam, like Mormonism, make extravagant and implausible claims about history, the Koran, hadiths and so on. You are not a credulous person or you would not be on this site - so what do really think you can with certainty believe?

Many people take an interest in legend, myth and fairy tale. Obviously Odin wasn't real and nether was the Little Mermaid. In the Quran, Dhul-Qarnayn (Alexander) did live but the details given are historically mixed up, Khidr (Gilgamesh) may have too? The truth or falsity may be interesting but mostly we draw meaning from these stories.

[Arising_uk]

... Obviously Odin wasn't real and nether was the Little Mermaid. ...

Does this mean you agree that Allah does not exist neither?

[Seleucus]

... Obviously Odin wasn't real and nether was the Little Mermaid. ...

Does this mean you agree that Allah does not exist neither?

Exoteric conceptions of Allah are probably more naive, esoteric more enlightened. This may be an important point as far as welcoming foreigners into our homelands, political/mainstream Islam is the more concerning compared to Sufism which is associated with the perennial philosophy. Many orientalists tended to associate Islam with Semitic religion and Sufism with Aryan spirituality, see Ridgeon's The Cambridge companion to Sufism, p.131, link.

But the real question is, why was it heroic for colored people and Muslims to fight for centuries to expel the foreigners from their countries (decolonization), but White people are expected to have their countries overrun by aliens (multiculturalism)?

It's okay to be White.

[dorothea]

Thank you, or should I say shukran, as I picked up about three words of Arabic running courses for people who had survived violence in the Middle East (Muslim on Muslim by the way). I'm surprised you defend 7th century child marriage. (Some claim that Aisha was 18, though of course that leads to the question, why, if her own testimony - and Bukhari? - can't be trusted what can.) Outside Islamic countries no one defends that now, but your answer implies that God's law was different then from now - as if divine morality were as relativist as some modern sociologists make out. By contrast, the moral judgements of Jesus seem as universal and absolute now as they were then - possibly more enlightened than Christian morality has been until recently. (In John8 he refuses to condemn an adulteress who was about to be stoned. The present Pope has angered his cardinals by refusing to condemn a homosexual). Should not a prophet - in the sense of one who claims to open our eyes to God, not a fortune teller - be better behaved than Mohammed was? He started out trying to convert his fellow Jews and seems to have lost his temper, having failed, and got violent. Typical male, many women would say. And there is the sex. Eleven wives at any one time plus slaves. I would like to think he would have been dismayed by Islamic States similar behaviour, but I can't quite believe he would. Rape is hardly a crime in Saud, Pakistan and other such places.
Your other points - 5000 years of colonisation. The Jews have been there for maybe 3500 years and Islam for only the past 1300. As you know Islam was intolerant for much of that time - and provoked the crusades by stopping others from visiting ancient sites, though I believe the crusades were so shambolic and ineffectual they don't figure at all in local history. Can you really blame the past - even the distant past - for the present. Is it not that Islam, as Christianity once was is supremacist and sectarian: most Muslims die or are oppressed by fellow Muslims. Don't we all have a moral responsibility for our own actions? ('Our faults lie not in our stars but in ourselves' as Brutus, obviously an existentialist, put it.)
As to your suggestion that we get meaning from beliefs that may be true or not. If I've understood you right that is certainly a big philosophical question taking us way out of the realm of religion. Thanks again.

[Seleucus]

I'm surprised you defend 7th century child marriage.

Oh! I didn't expect you to retort with that.

Of course I am not defending anything, only telling you what you already know, child marriage was normative in times past. As I recall Dante was writing on his beloved Beatrice while she was yet but 11. Even today apparently one in five girls in Indonesia are wed by 11, link.

But this brings up an important point already touched on this discussion, criticizing Islam from a position of great ignorance or from greater awareness.

I would put these as the top problems I have with Muslim, and I expect they are not well known even to many who are criticizing Islam:

- megaphones on mosques blaring on every block all day and night long so you can never get any peace and quiet even in your own home.
- circumcision of children, boys and girls.
- mass animal sacrifice.

God's law

What the heck is that? Are you some kind of Khawarij?

By contrast, the moral judgements of Jesus seem as universal and absolute now as they were then - possibly more enlightened than Christian morality has been until recently. (In John8 he refuses to condemn an adulteress who was about to be stoned. The present Pope has angered his cardinals by refusing to condemn a homosexual). Should not a prophet - in the sense of one who claims to open our eyes to God, not a fortune teller - be better behaved than Mohammed was?

I can honestly say I don't care much one way or the other about foreign Semitic religions either Islam or Christianity except insofar as they contain the underlying ancient spiritual traditions of the White race. I'm wanting to know more about Indo-European paganism, animism, or Western Aryan traditions like Hinduism, Buddhism and Zen; I'll look at Bede's Ecclesiastical history of the English people, but not for what it's saying about Christianity but rather about pre-Christian spirituality. The Annunciation, the Trinity, and Jesus as the son of God are obviously pagan ideas, hence the Monophysite schism and ultimate rejection of European Christianity in favor of Islam by the Semites.

He started out trying to convert his fellow Jews and seems to have lost his temper, having failed, and got violent.

He was a gangster. Muslims were caravan raiders and pirates. Not a civilization that values productivity.

Eleven wives at any one time plus slaves. I would like to think he would have been dismayed by Islamic States similar behaviour, but I can't quite believe he would. Rape is hardly a crime in Saud, Pakistan and other such places.

If you rape another man's wife in Islam you're gonna be in big trouble.

Your other points - 5000 years of colonisation. The Jews have been there for maybe 3500 years and Islam for only the past 1300.

Jews got out for 2000 years and got a breath of fresh air.

As you know Islam was intolerant for much of that time -

Pact of Umar and so on, yes.

and provoked the crusades by stopping others from visiting ancient sites,

Yes.

though I believe the crusades were so shambolic and ineffectual they don't figure at all in local history.

It was not the first back-migration of Europeans into the Levant. We now know the Philistines were proto-Greeks coming down from the Aegean and Cyprus. This scene was probably the best of the whole film: link. More recently Allenby entering Jerusalem in 1917. Or Bush trying to recover Iraq and Afghanistan for the West.

Can you really blame the past - even the distant past - for the present. Is it not that Islam, as Christianity once was is supremacist and sectarian: most Muslims die or are oppressed by fellow Muslims. Don't we all have a moral responsibility for our own actions? ('Our faults lie not in our stars but in ourselves' as Brutus, obviously an existentialist, put it.)

No, I have no moral responsibility for foreign peoples. Live and let live I expect is the magnanimous position to hold. As Trump said in his speech in Saudi Arabia, "our first priority is always the safety and security of our citizens. We are not here to lecture. We are not here to tell other people how to live, what to do, who to be, or how to worship."

As to your suggestion that we get meaning from beliefs that may be true or not. If I've understood you right that is certainly a big philosophical question taking us way out of the realm of religion. Thanks again.

Yes, it doesn't really matter if Jesus was really crucified, or if he was swapped out with Simon of Cyrenica as Muslims later came to misinterpret sura 4:157. It's the meaning for us of the story.