Philosophy Now Forum

...yeah, I'm talkin' to you.

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Sun Jul 11, 2021 5:59 pm Ic..thanks for being here.

All I want is for the pain, and suffering in the world to stop. Especially the suffering of animals, but how can we make it stop, we can’t can we?

What PAIN do you IMAGINE there is, 'in the world'?

What SUFFERING do you IMAGINE animals are in or have?

When you START to PROVIDE the EXAMPLES of what you ENVISION or IMAGINE, then I can SHOW 'you' HOW to STOP 'that'.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Jul 11, 2021 5:40 pm I just want it all to stop.

What does the word 'all' mean and refer to here, EXACTLY?

If 'you' REALLY do want 'it' ALL to STOP, then 'you' ALREADY KNOW what to do, right?

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Sun Jul 11, 2021 6:07 pm IC….can’t you see what’s really happening here on the planet.

What is REALLY happening here on planet earth, "dontaskme"?

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Sun Jul 11, 2021 6:07 pm It’s gut wrenching to watch it…the pain and suffering humans inflict on each other, and on animals, the abuse both mentally and physically…

Well the ONLY one's DOING and INFLICTING this is, like I have been saying, is 'you', adult human beings. So, WHY do 'you' do this? Find this out, then 'you' can CHANGE, for the better. And, by the way, when 'you' do FIND OUT WHY, then 'you' ACTUALLY WILL CHANGE for the better. Thus, creating a MUCH BETTER 'world' for EVERY one, which is Everything. Prevention is BETTER than the cure, and PREVENTION can ONLY take place WHEN the WHY is uncovered, and KNOWN. As I have ALREADY SAID this is ACTUALLY HAPPENING HERE, on planet earth, right NOW.

I have ALSO ALREADY EXPLAINED HOW to FIND OUT WHY it is 'you', adult human beings, who is creating this MESS, which is SEEN and TALK about here.

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Sun Jul 11, 2021 6:07 pm is this what we want?

NO. But it is THIS, which 'you' are ACTUALLY DOING.

What 'you' ALL REALLY WANT is to live in Peace and in Harmony, with EVERY one. But, what 'you', adult human beings, are ACTUALLY DOING is CAUSING and Creating, thee EXACT OPPOSITE.

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Sun Jul 11, 2021 6:07 pm Then there is the animal kingdom..look at what they have to go through, it breaks my heart.

What does, "Then there is the animal kingdom", even mean and/or refer to, EXACTLY?

And, what does, "look at what they HAVE TO go through", ACTUALLY mean and/or refer to?

What do you think or BELIEVE 'you', animals, HAVE TO 'go through'?

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Sun Jul 11, 2021 6:07 pm Is this what we want?

'We', well at least 'I', do NOT even KNOW what 'you' are referring to here, YET.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Jul 11, 2021 6:14 pm

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Sun Jul 11, 2021 5:50 pm I hate that we have to suffer, that’s all.

Fair enough.

What if God hates that, too?

But God KNOWS that if an adult human being IS SUFFERING, then that is of their OWN CHOOSING.

What God REALLY DISLIKES is SEEING 'you', adult human beings, abusing "yourselves", children, ALL other animals, the planet earth, and ALL things. Or, in other words, God does NOT like OBSERVING 'you', adult human beings, abusing ANY thing. BUT, in saying that, God KNOWS EXACTLY WHY ALL of 'you', adult human beings, abuse things, as well as KNOWS WHY 'you', HAD TO abuse things, in order to learn what is EXACTLY Wrong, and, what is EXACTLY Right in Life, so that when 'you' DO seriously WANT TO CHANGE, for the better, then you will KNOW what thee BETTER IS, EXACTLY.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Jul 11, 2021 6:14 pm

It’s weird but I’ve always been able to sense that you are a decent person, I don’t know how or why I feel that way.

I'm quite ordinary. And I know my own faults. I think we all do, even if some act as if they don't.

It is a SHAME that 'you' will NOT inform 'us' here now of what your OWN faults ARE.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Jul 11, 2021 6:14 pm As for me, whatever I have, it's only what God gives. I have no more than that.

'you' were given FREEDOM, or FREE WILL. So, NOW, it all depends on what 'you' CHOOSE to do with that. That is; you can KEEP abusing things, like you are now, when this is being written, or you can CHANGE, for the better.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Jul 11, 2021 6:14 pm But thanks.

Well that 'con' OBVIOUSLY worked.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Jul 11, 2021 6:14 pm

I’m a decent person too…but the pain of the world makes me bitter.

Well, I don't think you're wrong to say that a good God should not condone pointless suffering.

OBVIOUSLY, one is Wrong when they think this.

There is OBVIOUSLY God, thee One Universe and, thee Creator of ALL physical things. And, there is God, thee One Loving, Caring, et cetera Being, which is ALWAYS INFORMING 'you' of what is Right and Wrong in Life, but gives 'you' the ABSOLUTELY FREEDOM to DO and LEARN ANY thing, ANY way that you WANT.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Jul 11, 2021 6:14 pm And I certainly don't want to suppress or deny that thought. I think you have a right to feel that way, and every legitimacy to asking why there is suffering.

OF COURSE absolutely EVERY human being HAS THE RIGHT to FEEL ANY way that they do. And, to even 'try to' suppress absolutely ANY feeling that arises within the body, is absolutely Wrong thinking and doing.

To even suggest, "I think you have a right to feel that way", is one of the MOST absurd ways to SEE things, and, if thee Truth be KNOWN is ANOTHER EXAMPLE of HOW 'you', adult human beings, 'try' your hardest to have CONTROL of "others", "yourselves".

Also, WHY there is suffering is just PLAIN OBVIOUS.

WHY do 'you', adult human beings, envision that 'you' are STILL asking WHY, in regards to this, especially considering how long 'you' have been existing for and sentient beings, on planet earth?

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Jul 11, 2021 6:14 pm What do I know, but that maybe you have particular circumstances that make the question additionally poignant? So you I don't want you to stop asking it.

I just ask, "What if He doesn't?"

LOL God is NOT a "he", and NEVER could have been. When will 'you', human beings, WAKE UP to "your-(True)-selves".

If ANY one wants to INSIST that God is a "he", then please feel FREE to EXPLAIN how this could even be a POSSIBILITY, let alone an ACTUALITY.

And, if ANY one uses the "it is written in the book" EXCUSE, then they are NO better than the, so called, "scientists", who use the EXACT SAME EXCUSE for their CLAIMS, which they can NOT back up and support with ACTUAL PROOF.

'you' are ALL NO better than each "other" in this regard.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Jul 11, 2021 6:16 pm

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Sun Jul 11, 2021 6:07 pm Is this what we want?

I hope not.

But what do we want to do?

We have two choices: capitulate, and say, "Life sucks, and that's just how it is and how it's going to be," or refuse to become nihilistic, and instead say, "There must be an answer to what's going on here," -- and then look for it.

And I suggest CHANGING the WAY you LOOK and SHARE your VIEWS. BECAUSE OBVIOUSLY the WAY 'you', adult human beings, have been LOOKING and SHARING, hitherto when this was written, has NOT been working for 'you'.

Thee ANSWER is OBVIOUS. It is HERE-NOW 'staring you in the face', as some would say.

And, as I have been INFORMING you, you are BLIND to 'It' because of your ALREADY GAINED and WELL MAINTAINED ASSUMPTIONS and BELIEFS.

Furthermore, the MORE Wrong the ASSUMPTION and BELIEF IS, like, for example; "God is a "he", and the MORE it is BELIEVED true, then the MORE BLIND, and STUPID, you REALLY ACTUALLY ARE.

Oh, and by the way, there are OTHER CHOICES than just those two ONLY.

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Sun Jul 11, 2021 6:28 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Jul 11, 2021 6:16 pm

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Sun Jul 11, 2021 6:07 pm Is this what we want?

I hope not.

But what do we want to do?

We have two choices: capitulate, and say, "Life sucks, and that's just how it is and how it's going to be," or refuse to become nihilistic, and instead say, "There must be an answer to what's going on here," -- and then look for it.

I agree, but nothing changes… we can hope for ever, but if nothing changes, then what?

LOL EVERY thing CHANGES. And, there is NOTHING one can do to stop this CHANGE.

The issue is that collectively 'you', adult human beings, have been continually CHANGING for the worse, and NOT for the better.

And this is because of three MAIN REASONS.

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Sun Jul 11, 2021 6:28 pm We keep waiting, and while we are waiting one more child is conceived and forced to live this mess out, without it’s consent. Then another, then another…

And ALL the while ALL of these children, which are BEING ABUSED by 'you', adult human beings, "grow up" to become adults doing more or less the EXACT SAME things, while ABUSING each and EVERY one of the new children who keep coming into Existence.

So, what is 'it' EXACTLY that 'you' are WAITING FOR here "dontaskme"?

Are you WAITING for some God like figure to come down and rescue you, ALL?

Have you NOT heard of the saying, 'God helps those who help "themselves", and/or 'Help "yourself" BEFORE 'you' even begin to try to help "others", and "You are the Creator of your own destiny"?

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Sun Jul 11, 2021 6:33 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Jul 11, 2021 6:14 pm

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Sun Jul 11, 2021 5:50 pm I hate that we have to suffer, that’s all.

Fair enough.

What if God hates that, too?

It’s weird but I’ve always been able to sense that you are a decent person, I don’t know how or why I feel that way.

I'm quite ordinary. And I know my own faults. I think we all do, even if some act as if they don't.

As for me, whatever I have, it's only what God gives. I have no more than that.

But thanks.

I’m a decent person too…but the pain of the world makes me bitter.

Well, I don't think you're wrong to say that a good God should not condone pointless suffering. And I certainly don't want to suppress or deny that thought. I think you have a right to feel that way, and every legitimacy to asking why there is suffering. What do I know, but that maybe you have particular circumstances that make the question additionally poignant? So you I don't want you to stop asking it.

I just ask, "What if He doesn't?"

I don’t know what god means,

NO one KNOWS what ANY word means, that is; until they have been exposed to its meaning.

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Sun Jul 11, 2021 6:33 pm it just seems to be a made up concept, that has popped up at the same time as human language.

Absolutely EVERY word is a made up concept. Just like EVERY, so called, religion is a made up concept. Just like EVERY assumption, belief, theory, and hypothesis are made up concepts. So there is NOTHING unusual here. They all "popped up", or better worded 'created' along with human language. In fact it is these things that 'make up' human language, what it is, itself.

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Sun Jul 11, 2021 6:33 pm I’ve had difficult life, but I have learnt to bear it…but I know some people have difficulty in bearing it…So I feel their pain also.

To me, ONLY children, (or adult human being controlled or restricted animals), can have a "difficult life". If ANY adult human being has a, so called, "difficult life", then this is ONLY because they have NOT YET evolved further, or because of what 'you', adult human beings collectively are DOING, and thus Creating.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Jul 11, 2021 6:40 pm

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Sun Jul 11, 2021 6:33 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Jul 11, 2021 6:14 pm
Fair enough.

What if God hates that, too?


I'm quite ordinary. And I know my own faults. I think we all do, even if some act as if they don't.

As for me, whatever I have, it's only what God gives. I have no more than that.

But thanks.


Well, I don't think you're wrong to say that a good God should not condone pointless suffering. And I certainly don't want to suppress or deny that thought. I think you have a right to feel that way, and every legitimacy to asking why there is suffering. What do I know, but that maybe you have particular circumstances that make the question additionally poignant? So you I don't want you to stop asking it.

I just ask, "What if He doesn't?"

I don’t know what god means, it just seems to be a made up concept, that has popped up at the same time as human language.

I’ve had difficult life, but I have learnt to bear it…but I know some people have difficulty in bearing it…So I feel their pain also.

I'm just asking what would make us close our minds on the negative?

ANOTHER False BELIEF here.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Jul 11, 2021 6:40 pm Sure, there is pain and suffering...and good things, and happiness, and hope. With both possible, why opt for the bad?

Now, I know you think God is just "made up," so maybe I can't offer you any information from that side. But I think such information does exist, and it does certainly give me hope. I just wonder what you're actually getting if we settle on the negative.

Isn't the point of crying out against the unfairness of it all the hope that somehow, Somebody will hear?

There is NOTHING "unfair" in Life, Itself, other than the one 'you', adult human beings, CREATE.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Jul 11, 2021 6:40 pm And if it's not, why cry out at all? Why not just curl up and whimper?

But I think maybe the angst comes from the fact that we all know, on a very deep level, that things SHOULD be better than they are, that good things are not supposed to be this way.

And the reason WHY things are NOT ALREADY BETTER is because 'you', adult human beings, ACTUALLY BELIEVE what you do.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Jul 11, 2021 6:40 pm If they shouldn't be any different, there'd be no reason to be upset at all, right?

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Sun Jul 11, 2021 6:41 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Jul 11, 2021 6:35 pm

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Sun Jul 11, 2021 6:28 pm

I agree, but nothing changes… we can hope for ever, but if nothing changes, then what?

The worst thing about the future is that often, we do not know what is coming. But the best thing about our worst fears is that we also don't know that they are coming...they may not be the future at all.

Why should we choose despair instead of hope?

I think it’s very healthy to choose despair, then at least when the shit really hits the fan, those who accept the futility will be prepared.

Is 'healthy' REALLY the RIGHT word here?

Sure, one would NOT be as surprised or as shocked, but CHOOSING one MAYBE over ANOTHER MAYBE to me is NOT REALLY 'healthy' AT ALL.

I find just LOOKING AT thee ACTUAL Truth ONLY is FAR MORE HEALTHY.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Jul 11, 2021 6:40 pm I cannot bear to see people and animals suffer,

So, WHY do 'you', "yourself", "dontaskme", CAUSE and CREATE the SUFFERING FOR, and IN, "others"?

And, if you BELIEVE you do NOT, then the ONLY one you are FOOLING here is "yourself".

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Sun Jul 11, 2021 6:41 pm but I have no choice but to bare it.

No you do NOT at all. You can CHOOSE to ADMIT the Wrong that you do do, which CAUSES the SUFFERING of "others", and, CHOOSE to CHANGE, for the better, and then CHOOSE to ACTUALLY do that. So, there is, literally, MORE CHOICES than you first imagine there is.

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Sun Jul 11, 2021 6:41 pm I could kill myself, yes,, but that would cause more suffering you see the dilemma here, it selfish, and I’m not selfish.

LOL HOW and WHERE do you propose that if you did this, then that would cause MORE SUFFERING?

And, do NOT FORGET that if "others" had been taught thee ACTUAL Truth of Life, Itself, then they would NOT be surprised NOR shocked WHY some human beings "kill" "themselves". These people would have grown up and matured with understanding, itself, and thus FULLY KNOW WHY 'you' "killed" "yourself", and therefore NOT be, so called, "suffering" AT ALL.

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Sun Jul 11, 2021 7:03 pm The universe is and has always been a state of absolute unstable chaos…trying in vain to organise itself, only a fool would not see this.

"unstable chaos", just like ALL concepts, is VERY RELATIVE. Some just say, 'CHANGE', instead of "absolute unstable chaos".

Some also SEE thee Universe in absolute PURE and PERFECT 'organization' ALREADY, and NOT in an attempt in 'trying to' "organize" Itself. The "vain" word is just used to provoke an emotional response in "others".

Oh, and by the way, thee Universe has ALREADY come to KNOW Thy Self, or thee True Self, as some would say.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Jul 11, 2021 7:40 pm

Sculptor wrote: ↑Sun Jul 11, 2021 7:24 pm Oooooooooooooooooh I am scared!

I guess we'll see one day. I know you think not, but what either of us thinks is going to prove a whole lot less important than what's actually true.

And NEITHER of 'you' here are even CLOSE to thee ACTUAL Truth of things, YET.

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Sun Jul 11, 2021 7:40 pm

Sculptor wrote: ↑Sun Jul 11, 2021 7:24 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Jul 11, 2021 3:27 pm
I claim no arcane knowledge. The Biblical record is sufficient to convince one that Hell is no laughing matter...and that this life decidedly lacks its central characteristics.

For one thing, if you and I were in Hell, we would not be having this discussion.

An out of date fairy story written by semi literate goat herders. Oooooooooooooooooh I am scared!

it never gets old, this story, must have been the greatest story ever told. I think we should stop clinging onto it for dear life and let it have its freedom…poor thing has been flogged to death, and yet still refuses to die.

It does NOT die because thee ACTUAL Truth is in there. You, human beings, however, in the days when this was written, just continued to MISINTERPRET and DISTORT this Truth.

But in saying this, in just about EVERY thing 'you', human beings, say and write, thee ACTUAL Truth is in there, somewhere. One just needs to learn how to be able to DECIPHER between what is ACTUALLY True, Right, and Correct, from what is just ASSUMED and/or BELIEVED to be true, right, and correct.

Which, by the way, is an EXTREMELY VERY SIMPLE and VERY EASY thing to do. That is; once one learns the KNOW-HOW of HOW to do that.

AlexW wrote: ↑Sun Jul 11, 2021 11:17 pm

RCSaunders wrote: ↑Sun Jul 11, 2021 11:49 am My father would have been the first to joke about his own death, as I do mine.

When people are afraid of something they joke about it… (people are afraid of what they do not understand)

Add the word 'can' in between the words 'they' and 'joke', and what you wrote here IS; VERY True.

And, once True understanding is obtained, then PURE CONTENTMENT can exist.

Also, and just by the way, people do use joking and laughter to overcome the ABUSE they suffered as children, or previously, as well. The issue with this is, however, because they laugh and joke about they "justify" or "rationalize" that their own abusive behaviors on children now is "acceptable" or "all right".

AlexW wrote: ↑Sun Jul 11, 2021 11:17 pm Better try to understand what life and death are - and to whom they actually happen… once you do, joking about it is not necessary anymore.

VERY, VERY True.

And even better still is do NOT just 'try to' understand, but INSTEAD 'just do it', as some say.

Understanding what thee ACTUAL Truth of Life and "death" IS Truly enlightening, rewarding, AND refreshing. In fact, ALL fear is removed and replaced with PURE and FULL calmness.

Dubious wrote: ↑Mon Jul 12, 2021 1:08 am

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Jul 11, 2021 11:40 pm

Dubious wrote: ↑Sun Jul 11, 2021 11:29 pm If its only a truth about the speaker then there must be a reason why it is true.

The point is simple: true or not, it's entirely irrelevant to the truthfulness of the argument/opinion/information in question.

...technically you're right...

Yep.

Dubious wrote: ↑Sun Jul 11, 2021 11:29 pm

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Jul 11, 2021 3:21 pm No, there's no "point" at which an argument fails merely because of the person who spoke it. That actually never logically is entailed.

Dubious wrote: ↑Sun Jul 11, 2021 10:36 am I never said that an argument fails because of the person who spoke it. That would be absurd. However it proves once again why any ad hominem used to describe you ceases to be that and becomes in fact a truth statement.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Jul 11, 2021 3:21 pm But let us suppose it is a "truth statement," as you say. If so, it's only a truth about the speaker, not a truth about his/her utterance on a given occasion. And often, it's not even really even that.

If its only a truth about the speaker then there must be a reason why it is true. Your very many posts proclaim the why's in profusion.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Jul 11, 2021 3:21 pm Nevertheless, if I claim, "Dubious is a liar" that does not inform anybody about whether or not Dubious's claims "Dragons are real," or "The number 2 is one more than 1" are true or false. It's just irrelevant for me to impugn his character -- at best, it's a distraction to throw of observers from the quality of whatever it is he said.

This statement is as pathetic and inapplicable to any kind of logic as believing that Jesus is going to save your soul simply because you believe in him...whatever that means!

If you are REALLY interested in KNOWING what that means, which can be EXPLAINED in VERY SIMPLE and VERY EASY terms, which could be understood by just about EVERY one, and which could NOT be refuted either, then I could and would share that with you.

Dubious wrote: ↑Sun Jul 11, 2021 11:29 pm It's the kind of response, not withstanding its inherent idiocy, meant only to mislead as usual.

Although some of what was said in that response is absolutely and irrefutable True, what it was written for EXACTLY might have an underlying motive.

Dubious wrote: ↑Sun Jul 11, 2021 11:29 pm Remember when I asked you what happens to all the other people who, though also religious, do not believe in Jesus. Would they also be damned? I made very sure not to insult you in any way knowing you would use that as an excuse to avoid the question. Instead, you said I insulted god as an excuse to forgo any response in spite of affirming you have three comments to that question.

"immanuel can" is absolutely INCAPABLE of PROVIDING absolutely ANY thing, which backs up and supports a LOT of its BELIEFS.

As has ALREADY been PROVEN irrefutable True.

Dubious wrote: ↑Sun Jul 11, 2021 11:29 pm So again, what prevents you from showing us how ingenious you are in supplying at least one!