Religion is Man- Made

[Immanuel Can]

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this thread, like many others, isn't really about religion or god

Yeh. The irony, of course, is that if morality is subjective, there's no such thing as a "bad" person. There's only "another" person -- regardless of what they do, so long as "subjectively" they're fine with it.

Yeah, this place stinks of it.

Well, I've said this before, but I think it's really true here. There are two basic suppositions that most people are carrying around today:

1. Truth and morality are merely subjective language games.

2. The real game in town is seizing the initiative, the high ground, the appearance of goodness and the de-facto power in any situation, and language games are the way we do it.

So there's no means of arbitrating disputes, no common basis of agreement. On the one hand, there are some who still those who believe in objective morality and actual truth, but they are unable to formulate the kinds of arguments that are persuasive to people who, on the other hand, have already abandoned both and now believe it's all about power. Because really, NO argument can be persuasive to somebody who thinks we're just playing power games: there's only win and loss of power; and things like truth-language and morality-language are nothing other than the tools of the power game.

[Dontaskme]

I have no idea what you're talking about there. I'm not imposing anything on anyone.

But whaddever.

No, you wouldn’t understand that would you...

Well, it's not clear.

Do you mean you hate life? All life? Even the lives of children? I can't think that's what you mean...so I'm waiting to hear what you do mean.

But I can see you're unhappy with me, though I still don't really know why. So I won't ask again.

I’m not unhappy with you IC

I hate the idea that we have to be born just to suffer the effects of what it means to be a sentient feeling creature.

I hate that we have to suffer, that’s all.

You’ve asked me what I meant, so thanks for that. I do not believe an intelligent caring loving god would want to make sentient life knowing that part of the deal is pain and suffering…I’ve spoken to you about this before. It’s only logical that there is no such thing as a creator god, simply because of the evil, suffering and pain that is life for sentient beings.

It rips my heart out when I see suffering of wild animals , that rips me apart, I just hate that nature is making all this happen.

It’s weird but I’ve always been able to sense that you are a decent person, I don’t know how or why I feel that way.


I’m really glad you are on this forum, you calm me.
I’m a decent person too…but the pain of the world makes me bitter.

[Dontaskme]

Ic..thanks for being here.

All I want is for the pain, and suffering in the world to stop. Especially the suffering of animals, but how can we make it stop, we can’t can we?

I just want it all to stop.

[Dontaskme]

IC….can’t you see what’s really happening here on the planet.

It’s gut wrenching to watch it…the pain and suffering humans inflict on each other, and on animals, the abuse both mentally and physically…is this what we want? Then there is the animal kingdom..look at what they have to go through, it breaks my heart.

Is this what we want?

[Immanuel Can]

I hate that we have to suffer, that’s all.

Fair enough.

What if God hates that, too?

It’s weird but I’ve always been able to sense that you are a decent person, I don’t know how or why I feel that way.

I'm quite ordinary. And I know my own faults. I think we all do, even if some act as if they don't.

As for me, whatever I have, it's only what God gives. I have no more than that.

But thanks.

I’m a decent person too…but the pain of the world makes me bitter.

Well, I don't think you're wrong to say that a good God should not condone pointless suffering. And I certainly don't want to suppress or deny that thought. I think you have a right to feel that way, and every legitimacy to asking why there is suffering. What do I know, but that maybe you have particular circumstances that make the question additionally poignant? So you I don't want you to stop asking it.

I just ask, "What if He doesn't?"

[Immanuel Can]

Is this what we want?

I hope not.

But what do we want to do?

We have two choices: capitulate, and say, "Life sucks, and that's just how it is and how it's going to be," or refuse to become nihilistic, and instead say, "There must be an answer to what's going on here," -- and then look for it.

[Dontaskme]

Is this what we want?

I hope not.

But what do we want to do?

We have two choices: capitulate, and say, "Life sucks, and that's just how it is and how it's going to be," or refuse to become nihilistic, and instead say, "There must be an answer to what's going on here," -- and then look for it.

I agree, but nothing changes… we can hope for ever, but if nothing changes, then what?

We keep waiting, and while we are waiting one more child is conceived and forced to live this mess out, without it’s consent. Then another, then another…

[Dontaskme]

I hate that we have to suffer, that’s all.

Fair enough.

What if God hates that, too?

It’s weird but I’ve always been able to sense that you are a decent person, I don’t know how or why I feel that way.

I'm quite ordinary. And I know my own faults. I think we all do, even if some act as if they don't.

As for me, whatever I have, it's only what God gives. I have no more than that.

But thanks.

I’m a decent person too…but the pain of the world makes me bitter.

Well, I don't think you're wrong to say that a good God should not condone pointless suffering. And I certainly don't want to suppress or deny that thought. I think you have a right to feel that way, and every legitimacy to asking why there is suffering. What do I know, but that maybe you have particular circumstances that make the question additionally poignant? So you I don't want you to stop asking it.

I just ask, "What if He doesn't?"

I don’t know what god means, it just seems to be a made up concept, that has popped up at the same time as human language.

I’ve had difficult life, but I have learnt to bear it…but I know some people have difficulty in bearing it…So I feel their pain also.

[Dontaskme]

I know you probably don’t know what to say mannie, so it’s ok, you don’t have to say much.

[Immanuel Can]

Is this what we want?

I hope not.

But what do we want to do?

We have two choices: capitulate, and say, "Life sucks, and that's just how it is and how it's going to be," or refuse to become nihilistic, and instead say, "There must be an answer to what's going on here," -- and then look for it.

I agree, but nothing changes… we can hope for ever, but if nothing changes, then what?

The worst thing about the future is that often, we do not know what is coming. But the best thing about our worst fears is that we also don't know that they are coming...they may not be the future at all.

Why should we choose despair instead of hope?

[Immanuel Can]

I hate that we have to suffer, that’s all.

Fair enough.

What if God hates that, too?

It’s weird but I’ve always been able to sense that you are a decent person, I don’t know how or why I feel that way.

I'm quite ordinary. And I know my own faults. I think we all do, even if some act as if they don't.

As for me, whatever I have, it's only what God gives. I have no more than that.

But thanks.

I’m a decent person too…but the pain of the world makes me bitter.

Well, I don't think you're wrong to say that a good God should not condone pointless suffering. And I certainly don't want to suppress or deny that thought. I think you have a right to feel that way, and every legitimacy to asking why there is suffering. What do I know, but that maybe you have particular circumstances that make the question additionally poignant? So you I don't want you to stop asking it.

I just ask, "What if He doesn't?"

I don’t know what god means, it just seems to be a made up concept, that has popped up at the same time as human language.

I’ve had difficult life, but I have learnt to bear it…but I know some people have difficulty in bearing it…So I feel their pain also.

I'm just asking what would make us close our minds on the negative? Sure, there is pain and suffering...and good things, and happiness, and hope. With both possible, why opt for the bad?

Now, I know you think God is just "made up," so maybe I can't offer you any information from that side. But I think such information does exist, and it does certainly give me hope. I just wonder what you're actually getting if we settle on the negative.

Isn't the point of crying out against the unfairness of it all the hope that somehow, Somebody will hear? And if it's not, why cry out at all? Why not just curl up and whimper?

But I think maybe the angst comes from the fact that we all know, on a very deep level, that things SHOULD be better than they are, that good things are not supposed to be this way.

If they shouldn't be any different, there'd be no reason to be upset at all, right?

[Dontaskme]

I hope not.

But what do we want to do?

We have two choices: capitulate, and say, "Life sucks, and that's just how it is and how it's going to be," or refuse to become nihilistic, and instead say, "There must be an answer to what's going on here," -- and then look for it.

I agree, but nothing changes… we can hope for ever, but if nothing changes, then what?

The worst thing about the future is that often, we do not know what is coming. But the best thing about our worst fears is that we also don't know that they are coming...they may not be the future at all.

Why should we choose despair instead of hope?

I think it’s very healthy to choose despair, then at least when the shit really hits the fan, those who accept the futility will be prepared.

I cannot bear to see people and animals suffer, but I have no choice but to bare it. I could kill myself, yes,, but that would cause more suffering you see the dilemma here, it selfish, and I’m not selfish.

[Dontaskme]

The universe is and has always been a state of absolute unstable chaos…trying in vain to organise itself, only a fool would not see this.

[Sculptor]

I think the view that says "Life is Hell" has two faults, really: one is that it badly underestimates the possible joys of life. The other is that it really doesn't take Hell seriously enough.

So in what way am i supposed to take Hell more seriously??

You can only make that statement if you think you know what Hell is. So tell us, oh great one!

I claim no arcane knowledge. The Biblical record is sufficient to convince one that Hell is no laughing matter...and that this life decidedly lacks its central characteristics.

For one thing, if you and I were in Hell, we would not be having this discussion.

An out of date fairy story written by semi literate goat herders. Oooooooooooooooooh I am scared!

[Immanuel Can]

Oooooooooooooooooh I am scared!

I guess we'll see one day. I know you think not, but what either of us thinks is going to prove a whole lot less important than what's actually true.