What is obscene ?

[popeye1945]

I remember an attempt to express the essence of the obscene, I think it was Jean-Paul Sartre who wrote it:

Obscene is something which shows itself to one (se dévoile), although one does not want to see it.

This is a good start, I think, but it is not the whole story, it seems to me.

How could we go on ?

The obscene is the violation of standards; no standard, no obscenity

The obscene is a violation of standards; however, not all violations of standards are obscene. For example, a 3/4 inch socket wrench may contain a defect whereby it violates standards of a true 3/4 inch socket wrench; however, a 3/4 inch socket wrench that violates such standards probably wouldn't be considered "obscene."

You're grasping at straws; it's a useless tool, inappropriate for the task at hand.

[Gary Childress]

The obscene is the violation of standards; no standard, no obscenity

The obscene is a violation of standards; however, not all violations of standards are obscene. For example, a 3/4 inch socket wrench may contain a defect whereby it violates standards of a true 3/4 inch socket wrench; however, a 3/4 inch socket wrench that violates such standards probably wouldn't be considered "obscene."

You're grasping at straws; it's a useless tool, inappropriate for the task at hand.

Speak for yourself.

[popeye1945]

The obscene is a violation of standards; however, not all violations of standards are obscene. For example, a 3/4 inch socket wrench may contain a defect whereby it violates standards of a true 3/4 inch socket wrench; however, a 3/4 inch socket wrench that violates such standards probably wouldn't be considered "obscene."

You're grasping at straws; it's a useless tool, inappropriate for the task at hand.

Speak for yourself.

Ok, Gary, what does obscenity relate to, if not a common standard? I am all ears!

[Gary Childress]

You're grasping at straws; it's a useless tool, inappropriate for the task at hand.

Speak for yourself.

Ok, Gary, what does obscenity relate to, if not a common standard? I am all ears!

You said the obscene is the violation of standards. Is that supposed to be a definition, or are you just mentioning one of many attributes of obscenity?

[popeye1945]

Speak for yourself.

Ok, Gary, what does obscenity relate to, if not a common standard? I am all ears!

You said the obscene is the violation of standards. Is that supposed to be a definition, or are you just mentioning one of many attributes of obscenity?

One cannot exist without the other, whether it be a personal standard or the standard of the collective. No standard, no judgment of obscenity. Both the standard and the judgment are subjective, personally and/or collectively.

[Gary Childress]

Ok, Gary, what does obscenity relate to, if not a common standard? I am all ears!

You said the obscene is the violation of standards. Is that supposed to be a definition, or are you just mentioning one of many attributes of obscenity?

One cannot exist without the other, whether it be a personal standard or the standard of the collective. No standard, no judgment of obscenity. Both the standard and the judgment are subjective, personally and/or collectively.

OK. That seems like a fair point.

[MikeNovack]

We need to be careful, at least be aware, when we are different definitions of the subject under discussion. For example.

We might use "obscene" to describe "things that cause a certain sort of feeling of disgust -- )a disgust different from but related to disgust of bad smells, for example)

We might use "obscene" to mean things in violation of some legal code labeling certain sorts of things as "obscene".

These might or might not be related. In both cases "culture" is involved.

[accelafine]

It used to be considered obscene for men to display their revolting sex fetishes in public and they would be arrested for it. Now they are lauded as 'stunning and brave'. Humans are just weird. What's up with that??

[popeye1945]

We need to be careful, at least be aware, when we are different definitions of the subject under discussion. For example.

We might use "obscene" to describe "things that cause a certain sort of feeling of disgust -- )a disgust different from but related to disgust of bad smells, for example)
We might use "obscene" to mean things in violation of some legal code labeling certain sorts of things as "obscene".
These might or might not be related. In both cases "culture" is involved.

The first of your statements might be considered a biological standard; for instance, one species having the same basic sensory apparatus, such as the ability to detect the smell of decay or death, would not be considered obscene to those organisms that detect the scent of food. Legal codes or laws against something are legal, and/or a moral standard. When you state culture is involved, it means the majority, collective opinion, collective standards. No standards, no obscenity.

[MikeNovack]

It used to be considered obscene for men to display their revolting sex fetishes in public and they would be arrested for it. Now they are lauded as 'stunning and brave'. Humans are just weird. What's up with that??

You aren't talking about "humans" but a specific culture. Nor should you be surprised that human cultures change/evolve over time. For some aspects of culture a "cultural generation" is a human generation (about 20 years). But for afew aspects much shorter. "proper attire" in our culture changes relatively quickly. Think of how we dressed at ten generation (200 year) intervals into the past. On the other hand, some aspects of culture change only very slowly. Take "children's games". Here the generation of transmission about 3 years (children learn "the right way to plat" from children about three years older --in just about all cultures). VERY CONSERVATIVE transmission. It's been ~600 "generations"since Vesuvius took out Pompeii but you can recognize "hopscotch"layouts. << NOTE: I might argue, in all societies we are taught "obey the rules of your society" by having been taught children's games.

OK --- MY candidates for a list of what is obscene (in ALL human societies -- I AM talkig about "for humans)

1) Sex with pre-pubescent/pubescent children (cultures MAY extend to older ages
2) Incest (exact relationships forbidden will be culturally dependent, but a few of the closest biological will be common to all methods)
3) Improper attire (culturally defined, and may have complicated rules/exceptions for time and place)

Please feel free to contest any of these or suggest additions to the list

[accelafine]

It used to be considered obscene for men to display their revolting sex fetishes in public and they would be arrested for it. Now they are lauded as 'stunning and brave'. Humans are just weird. What's up with that??

You aren't talking about "humans" but a specific culture. Nor should you be surprised that human cultures change/evolve over time. For some aspects of culture a "cultural generation" is a human generation (about 20 years). But for afew aspects much shorter. "proper attire" in our culture changes relatively quickly. Think of how we dressed at ten generation (200 year) intervals into the past. On the other hand, some aspects of culture change only very slowly. Take "children's games". Here the generation of transmission about 3 years (children learn "the right way to plat" from children about three years older --in just about all cultures). VERY CONSERVATIVE transmission. It's been ~600 "generations"since Vesuvius took out Pompeii but you can recognize "hopscotch"layouts. << NOTE: I might argue, in all societies we are taught "obey the rules of your society" by having been taught children's games.

OK --- MY candidates for a list of what is obscene (in ALL human societies -- I AM talkig about "for humans)

1) Sex with pre-pubescent/pubescent children (cultures MAY extend to older ages
2) Incest (exact relationships forbidden will be culturally dependent, but a few of the closest biological will be common to all methods)
3) Improper attire (culturally defined, and may have complicated rules/exceptions for time and place)

Please feel free to contest any of these or suggest additions to the list

Thanks for the mansplaination. Before you wrote this I didn't realise there was such a thing as 'changing fashions'.
My comment referred specifically to male sex fetishes, part of an ideology that also includes the normalisation of sex with children. They've even come up with a new name for men who want to rape children, one that deliberately tries to minimise and 'normalise' it. Woke academics give lectures and write papers pontificating about how these men should be treated with compassion instead of being demonised. There are a few prominent ones who get plenty of airtime on mainstream media.

[popeye1945]

Ask yourself what is obscene to an individual in isolation. Morality to an individual in isolation is meaningless. Obscenity, like morality itself, is a social construct. Human society lives by standards.

[Gary Childress]

Ask yourself what is obscene to an individual in isolation. Morality to an individual in isolation is meaningless. Obscenity, like morality itself, is a social construct. Human society lives by standards.

What does it mean for something to be a "social construct"? And is the term "social construct" a "social construct"? Sounds to me a bit like it might be more relativism.

[MikeNovack]

Ask yourself what is obscene to an individual in isolation. Morality to an individual in isolation is meaningless. Obscenity, like morality itself, is a social construct. Human society lives by standards.

Humans are not the sort of animal that lives in isolation. We are not like Orangutans but like chimpanzees and bonobos. We have been social animals from before our three lines diverged. However, we need to consider the difference between learning/having been taught our culture and FEELINGS caused by breaking these.

And no, not "mansplaing" a PARTICULAR detail of culture but giving examples to show how some cultural features MUCH more stable than others. Random that I chose "fashion" except not totally unrelated (since determines if "dressed" or "naked")

But more seriously:
"part of an ideology that also includes the normalisation of sex with children. They've even come up with a new name for men who want to rape children, one that deliberately tries to minimise and 'normalise' it. Woke academics give lectures and write papers pontificating about how these men should be treated with compassion instead of being demonised. There are a few prominent ones who get plenty of airtime on mainstream media"

Male bovine excrement. No such "ideology" exists except in the heads of conspiracy theorists. The are no serious proponents of "normalizing" such behavior. If you mean there are those who favor treating as SICK (mentally ill) rather than criminal, I agree there are. Especially among mental health professionals. But that is part of a different argument about how societies should deal with deviant individuals IN GENERAL.

[accelafine]

Ask yourself what is obscene to an individual in isolation. Morality to an individual in isolation is meaningless. Obscenity, like morality itself, is a social construct. Human society lives by standards.

Humans are not the sort of animal that lives in isolation. We are not like Orangutans but like chimpanzees and bonobos. We have been social animals from before our three lines diverged. However, we need to consider the difference between learning/having been taught our culture and FEELINGS caused by breaking these.

And no, not "mansplaing" a PARTICULAR detail of culture but giving examples to show how some cultural features MUCH more stable than others. Random that I chose "fashion" except not totally unrelated (since determines if "dressed" or "naked")

But more seriously:
"part of an ideology that also includes the normalisation of sex with children. They've even come up with a new name for men who want to rape children, one that deliberately tries to minimise and 'normalise' it. Woke academics give lectures and write papers pontificating about how these men should be treated with compassion instead of being demonised. There are a few prominent ones who get plenty of airtime on mainstream media"

Male bovine excrement. No such "ideology" exists except in the heads of conspiracy theorists. The are no serious proponents of "normalizing" such behavior. If you mean there are those who favor treating as SICK (mentally ill) rather than criminal, I agree there are. Especially among mental health professionals. But that is part of a different argument about how societies should deal with deviant individuals IN GENERAL.

It's hardly a 'conspiracy theory'. I don't know what rock you've been living under. I can't be bothered digging it up. Paedophilia is a very big part of the current so-called 'trans'/gender ideology movement. 'Google' has become so biased it's practically impossible to use now. You make a lot of good points on various topics, but the sloppy writing is a headache and many points get lost because of missed words and incomplete sentences, sometimes saying the exact opposite of what you are obviously intending to say.