Christianity

[Immanuel Can]

You are “stuck in Story”...

The ad hom, the phony "diagnosis" -- there it is, again. I'm sorry: I'm just not interested in those games. They're what I'm dismissing with the backward wave of a hand. I just cannot be bothered.

So you're a Catholic, you say, and "will not now nor will I ever “renounce” either Christianity or (more especially) Catholicism." Okay. But who is really "stuck in Story," then? Thou hast said it.

Consider it, if self-awareness you have. If not, what's the point?

[Alexis Jacobi]

You Immanuel cannot hear anything— for all that you have ears!

You are a phenomenon …

[Alexis Jacobi]

After being made alive, he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits…

[iambiguous]

Excusing God
Raymond Tallis highlights the problem of evil.

Darwin’s admission that he could not persuade himself “that a beneficent and omnipotent God would have designedly created the parasitic wasps with the express intention of their feeding within the living bodies of caterpillars” can be extrapolated to a lot of what happens in the natural world.

Over and over again, we can note truly grim, gruesome, grotesque things that unfold in the slaughterhouse that is nature. All animals [including us] are in the crosshairs regarding any number of terrible things that can come their [our] way. It's ever and always only a matter of time.

But unlike other animals, self-conscious human beings are able to actually comment on it. And to react to it. And most either 1] think about it not at all when things are going well for them or 2] when things are going bad, instead, most fall back on God and religion for the "explanation".

And with moral commandments, immortality and salvation on the line, how hard can it be to just rationalize all that terrible pain and suffering away? It's merely harder for some than for others.

And then, of course, there is man-made evil (AKA ‘moral evil’). This is the suffering we inflict on each other as we pursue our individual interests or those of the communities to which we belong: the endless human story of oppression, criminality, and war.

And the part where that is attributed to heretics, skeptics, atheists, infidels, nihilists, heathens, pagans, etc. Or even to the Devil himself? Just not to their own loving, just and merciful Creator.

Then those who accept that it may well all revolve around their own God. But, alas, He is not omnipotent. He created the universe with the best of intentions, but then things got out of hand and beyond His control.

The usual theistic defence is that our special status as the apple of God’s eye requires that we should have free will, which implies the power of choosing between doing good and doing evil, and some choose evil.

And when the apples are confronted with such things as this...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lists_of_diseases

...and all other "acts of God", what choice do they have but to accept that God's mysterious ways are simply beyond the reach of mere mortals. After all, in a No God universe, these terrible things "just happen".

However, to me this response seems frivolous when I think of the pain inflicted on innocents by those who choose evil.

Of course, here, some are at least able to convince themselves that in a No God world, there is still the capacity to make distinctions between good and evil. Philosophically, for example. I'm just not one of them. Here and now.[/quote]

The recent testimony of Professor Nick Maynard, a British surgeon who led an emergency medical team in central Gaza at Al-Aqsa Hospital, speaks for itself:

“One child I’ll never forget had burns so bad you could see her facial bones. We knew there was no chance of her surviving but there was no morphine to give her. So not only was she inevitably going to die, but she would die in agony. And there was nowhere for her to go, so she died on the floor of the emergency room.”

See what I mean? If you are this child or one of her loved ones, it's either a God, the God, their God or...you tell me.

Finally, the part where this terrible suffering in Gaza, involving those who inflict it and those who endure it, revolves around the fact that both sides believe in the very same God!

[Dubious]

"Love me, you scum!".

So it is. Whenever feels appropriate. It's orthogonal to others' postings.

Not at all. King Ludwig was an elitist not generally interested in the life of his citizens.

I noticed that you often specialize in the orthogonal, which is fine. After all, it would be a failure in direction if anyone were to be direct in any of their philosophical musings.

Happy to engage with you on any terms you require.

That requires a mutual understanding of differences and the questions which denote them truly; in most cases almost impossible to come by.

[seeds]

The recent testimony of Professor Nick Maynard, a British surgeon who led an emergency medical team in central Gaza at Al-Aqsa Hospital, speaks for itself:

“One child I’ll never forget had burns so bad you could see her facial bones. We knew there was no chance of her surviving but there was no morphine to give her. So not only was she inevitably going to die, but she would die in agony. And there was nowhere for her to go, so she died on the floor of the emergency room.”

See what I mean? If you are this child or one of her loved ones, it's either a God, the God, their God or...you tell me.

Was it God who burned the little girl?

Or was it the humans who call themselves "Israelis" that burned her?

You need to place the blame where the blame actually belongs (on humans, not God).
_______

[iambiguous]

The recent testimony of Professor Nick Maynard, a British surgeon who led an emergency medical team in central Gaza at Al-Aqsa Hospital, speaks for itself:

“One child I’ll never forget had burns so bad you could see her facial bones. We knew there was no chance of her surviving but there was no morphine to give her. So not only was she inevitably going to die, but she would die in agony. And there was nowhere for her to go, so she died on the floor of the emergency room.”

See what I mean? If you are this child or one of her loved ones, it's either a God, the God, their God or...you tell me.

Was it God who burned the little girl?

Or was it the humans who call themselves "Israelis" that burned her?


You need to place the blame where the blame actually belongs (on humans, not God).
_______

Okay, so where do you place the blame here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lists_of_earthquakes'
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_l ... _eruptions
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_t ... l_cyclones
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_tsunamis
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_landslides
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fires
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_e ... _pandemics
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_deadliest_floods
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tornado_records
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lists_of_diseases
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_extinction_events

And to the best of my knowledge, only God is omnipotent.

Just try to imagine God up in Heaven totally aware of this little girl's terrible, terrible agony. And doing nothing.

Now, imagine if one of us mere mortals down here on Earth severely burned a child. The outrage would be overwhelming.

[seeds]

The recent testimony of Professor Nick Maynard, a British surgeon who led an emergency medical team in central Gaza at Al-Aqsa Hospital, speaks for itself:

“One child I’ll never forget had burns so bad you could see her facial bones. We knew there was no chance of her surviving but there was no morphine to give her. So not only was she inevitably going to die, but she would die in agony. And there was nowhere for her to go, so she died on the floor of the emergency room.”

See what I mean? If you are this child or one of her loved ones, it's either a God, the God, their God or...you tell me.

Was it God who burned the little girl?

Or was it the humans who call themselves "Israelis" that burned her?

You need to place the blame where the blame actually belongs (on humans, not God).

Just try to imagine God up in Heaven totally aware of this little girl's terrible, terrible agony. And doing nothing.

You need to stop assuming that the Creator of this universe is omnisciently aware of everything taking place in the universe - all at once.

God possessing "absolute omniscience" is nonsense! It is a false concept.

Now, imagine if one of us mere mortals down here on Earth severely burned a child. The outrage would be overwhelming.

You're kidding, right?

Mere mortals here on Earth are indeed severely burning children. And in the case of the little girl you cited above, they are doing it with weaponry that America...

(my country, and a so-called "Christian" nation)

...has provided, and I am indeed outraged and sickened by it all. How about you?

Might I suggest that instead of shaking your fist at God, that you do something (anything) to help those children.
_______

[Martin Peter Clarke]

Not at all. King Ludwig was an elitist not generally interested in the life of his citizens.

I noticed that you often specialize in the orthogonal, which is fine. After all, it would be a failure in direction if anyone were to be direct in any of their philosophical musings.

Happy to engage with you on any terms you require.

That requires a mutual understanding of differences and the questions which denote them truly; in most cases almost impossible to come by.

Oh, I'm a simple, simple minded, simplistic, old simpleton, wee-wee end of the MENSA pool. I always go with consilience. I only know coherent, warranted, justified, true, beliefs. Science, and rationality beyond it. So we know that nature, existence, matter is infinite regardless of the A presentist minority and B eternalist majority theories of time, for example. A, me. Invincibly ignorantly so. Your understandings are doubtless way beyond me, like Lacanian analysis. That's OK. You can stoop, surely? Unless I am beneath contempt. If you have to explain, I can't know.

Unless you're whack, despite appearances so far.

Goo on (that's Leicester, that), try me.

[Belinda]

Excusing God
Raymond Tallis highlights the problem of evil.

Darwin’s admission that he could not persuade himself “that a beneficent and omnipotent God would have designedly created the parasitic wasps with the express intention of their feeding within the living bodies of caterpillars” can be extrapolated to a lot of what happens in the natural world.

Over and over again, we can note truly grim, gruesome, grotesque things that unfold in the slaughterhouse that is nature. All animals [including us] are in the crosshairs regarding any number of terrible things that can come their [our] way. It's ever and always only a matter of time.

But unlike other animals, self-conscious human beings are able to actually comment on it. And to react to it. And most either 1] think about it not at all when things are going well for them or 2] when things are going bad, instead, most fall back on God and religion for the "explanation".

And with moral commandments, immortality and salvation on the line, how hard can it be to just rationalize all that terrible pain and suffering away? It's merely harder for some than for others.

And then, of course, there is man-made evil (AKA ‘moral evil’). This is the suffering we inflict on each other as we pursue our individual interests or those of the communities to which we belong: the endless human story of oppression, criminality, and war.

And the part where that is attributed to heretics, skeptics, atheists, infidels, nihilists, heathens, pagans, etc. Or even to the Devil himself? Just not to their own loving, just and merciful Creator.

Then those who accept that it may well all revolve around their own God. But, alas, He is not omnipotent. He created the universe with the best of intentions, but then things got out of hand and beyond His control.

The usual theistic defence is that our special status as the apple of God’s eye requires that we should have free will, which implies the power of choosing between doing good and doing evil, and some choose evil.

And when the apples are confronted with such things as this...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lists_of_diseases

...and all other "acts of God", what choice do they have but to accept that God's mysterious ways are simply beyond the reach of mere mortals. After all, in a No God universe, these terrible things "just happen".

However, to me this response seems frivolous when I think of the pain inflicted on innocents by those who choose evil.

Of course, here, some are at least able to convince themselves that in a No God world, there is still the capacity to make distinctions between good and evil. Philosophically, for example. I'm just not one of them. Here and now.

The recent testimony of Professor Nick Maynard, a British surgeon who led an emergency medical team in central Gaza at Al-Aqsa Hospital, speaks for itself:

“One child I’ll never forget had burns so bad you could see her facial bones. We knew there was no chance of her surviving but there was no morphine to give her. So not only was she inevitably going to die, but she would die in agony. And there was nowhere for her to go, so she died on the floor of the emergency room.”

See what I mean? If you are this child or one of her loved ones, it's either a God, the God, their God or...you tell me.

Finally, the part where this terrible suffering in Gaza, involving those who inflict it and those who endure it, revolves around the fact that both sides believe in the very same God!
[/quote]
But Israelis think that Palestinians are children of a lesser God.

[Alexiev]

I only know coherent, warranted, justified, true, beliefs. Science, and rationality beyond it. So we know that nature, existence, matter is infinite regardless of the A presentist minority and B eternalist majority theories of time, for example.

We humans used to think that "time is a constant" represented "justified, true belief". "Dubium sapientiae initium," wrote Descartes. "Doubt is the origin of wisdom."

[Martin Peter Clarke]

I only know coherent, warranted, justified, true, beliefs. Science, and rationality beyond it. So we know that nature, existence, matter is infinite regardless of the A presentist minority and B eternalist majority theories of time, for example.

We humans used to think that "time is a constant" represented "justified, true belief". "Dubium sapientiae initium," wrote Descartes. "Doubt is the origin of wisdom."

I don't doubt that. Time is certainly not constant (only the measured constants are - infinitely - constant after all), any more than length is, and the relativity of simultaneity is absolute. That is the consilience. How that means I've already had my next pee is... er, B is for Bollocks and Beyond me time theory. Good to know that old René (was he reincarnated?) wasn't always wrong.

[Martin Peter Clarke]

Excusing God
Raymond Tallis highlights the problem of evil.
Over and over again, we can note truly grim, gruesome, grotesque things that unfold in the slaughterhouse that is nature. All animals [including us] are in the crosshairs regarding any number of terrible things that can come their [our] way. It's ever and always only a matter of time.

But unlike other animals, self-conscious human beings are able to actually comment on it. And to react to it. And most either 1] think about it not at all when things are going well for them or 2] when things are going bad, instead, most fall back on God and religion for the "explanation".

And with moral commandments, immortality and salvation on the line, how hard can it be to just rationalize all that terrible pain and suffering away? It's merely harder for some than for others.



And the part where that is attributed to heretics, skeptics, atheists, infidels, nihilists, heathens, pagans, etc. Or even to the Devil himself? Just not to their own loving, just and merciful Creator.

Then those who accept that it may well all revolve around their own God. But, alas, He is not omnipotent. He created the universe with the best of intentions, but then things got out of hand and beyond His control.



And when the apples are confronted with such things as this...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lists_of_diseases

...and all other "acts of God", what choice do they have but to accept that God's mysterious ways are simply beyond the reach of mere mortals. After all, in a No God universe, these terrible things "just happen".



Of course, here, some are at least able to convince themselves that in a No God world, there is still the capacity to make distinctions between good and evil. Philosophically, for example. I'm just not one of them. Here and now.

The recent testimony of Professor Nick Maynard, a British surgeon who led an emergency medical team in central Gaza at Al-Aqsa Hospital, speaks for itself:

“One child I’ll never forget had burns so bad you could see her facial bones. We knew there was no chance of her surviving but there was no morphine to give her. So not only was she inevitably going to die, but she would die in agony. And there was nowhere for her to go, so she died on the floor of the emergency room.”

See what I mean? If you are this child or one of her loved ones, it's either a God, the God, their God or...you tell me.

Finally, the part where this terrible suffering in Gaza, involving those who inflict it and those who endure it, revolves around the fact that both sides believe in the very same God!

But Israelis think that Palestinians are children of a lesser God.

I'm afraid they do. And we collectively, obviously, tacitly. Agree. We let them.

[Dubious]

Happy to engage with you on any terms you require.

That requires a mutual understanding of differences and the questions which denote them truly; in most cases almost impossible to come by.

Oh, I'm a simple, simple minded, simplistic, old simpleton, wee-wee end of the MENSA pool. I always go with consilience. I only know coherent, warranted, justified, true, beliefs. Science, and rationality beyond it. So we know that nature, existence, matter is infinite regardless of the A presentist minority and B eternalist majority theories of time, for example. A, me. Invincibly ignorantly so. Your understandings are doubtless way beyond me, like Lacanian analysis. That's OK. You can stoop, surely? Unless I am beneath contempt. If you have to explain, I can't know.

Unless you're whack, despite appearances so far.

Goo on (that's Leicester, that), try me.

Try you for what? Anything specific in mind? I wouldn't want to misconstrue! In spite of, or because of, your unimpaired clear-headed post, it appears it is I who must stoop, I who have rarely stooped or been stooped by anyone having now become a vagrant in my own domain, in short, dismally stooped. Simply put, I cannot surmount, even remotely, your perspicacious jambalaya of sibylline visions performing an act of Eternal Recurrence as ruled by the intersections of orthogonals creating the illusion of differences.

[iambiguous]

See what I mean? If you are this child or one of her loved ones, it's either a God, the God, their God or...you tell me.

Was it God who burned the little girl?

Or was it the humans who call themselves "Israelis" that burned her?

You need to place the blame where the blame actually belongs (on humans, not God).

Just try to imagine God up in Heaven totally aware of this little girl's terrible, terrible agony. And doing nothing.

You need to stop assuming that the Creator of this universe is omnisciently aware of everything taking place in the universe - all at once.

God possessing "absolute omniscience" is nonsense!  It is a false concept.

Sure, if the Christian God [or any other existing God] is neither omniscient nor omnipotent, that would change everything. 

But into what?

And believing what you do about God "in your head" "here and now" is not nearly the same [to some of us] as actually demonstrating His existence. And, as well, recognizing that, given new experiences, new relationships and access to new information and knowledge, you might well change your mind about Him. As I did. A number of times.

In other words, until one or another Creator reveals Himself, assumptions about Him will always run rampant. Yours, mine, and everyone else who submits posts in this thread. 

As for exploring the concept of God up in the spiritual clouds, fine.

But sooner or later, in addition to theodicy, those of my ilk are going to get around to these parts:

1] a demonstrable proof of the existence of your God or religious/spiritual path
2] addressing the fact that down through the ages hundreds of Gods and  religious/spiritual paths to immortality and salvation were/are championed...but only one of which [if any] can be the true path. So why yours?
3] addressing the profoundly problematic role that dasein plays in any particular individual's belief in Gods and religious/spiritual faiths

Now, imagine if one of us mere mortals down here on Earth severely burned a child. The outrage would be overwhelming.

You're kidding, right?

Maybe it's just me, but I don't kid about severely burning anyone, let alone a child. Instead, my own quandary here revolves around the assumption that in a No God world there is no objective morality. And as a character from Fyodor Dostoevsky's The Brothers Karamazov once noted, "Without God, everything is permitted".

Mere mortals here on Earth are indeed severely burning children.  And in the case of the little girl you cited above, they are doing it with weaponry that America...

(my country, and a so-called "Christian" nation)

...has provided, and I am indeed outraged and sickened by it all.  How about you?

Okay, but that doesn't change the fact that an omniscient and omnipotent God knows of this and does nothing. At least not on this side of the grave. Nor the fact that these people are slaughtering each other over the same God. The part where, as with IC's True Christians, Jews and Muslims believing in the God of Abraham insist that everyone must think exactly the same thing about Him.

Or else.

And, again, why isn't God Himself outraged and sickened by it all? Enough, in other words, to put an end to it.

Unless, of course, He doesn't even exist.