Judaism - from a philosophical point of view

[Gary Childress]

Sounds like you're staying active, which is good. Enjoy.

Thanks! I still need to deal with another calamity. My bicycle has a flat tire. I am supposed to bring it to the repairman. So, yes, it is the one barely surmountable disaster after the other. Praise the Lord for keeping me afloat in these utmost difficult times!

Hang in there. Things will get better.

[Greatest I am]

The older and wiser non-supernatural Christianity was better than the garbage we suffer today.

What do you have in mind when you use the term "non-supernatural Christianity"? Details please.

A religion where our sins of missing the mark and evolution is recognized and appreciated.

Google theistic evolution or read the following.

"Sin: The Path to Excellence"
Sin has long been associated with moral failure, but what if we reframe it? I see sin as something essential to human growth—a necessary part of striving for excellence.
At its core, sin simply means “missing the mark.” It’s not about wickedness but about falling short of an ideal. Christianity and even Gnostic traditions acknowledge this idea in different ways. The concept of felix culpa—the “happy fault”—suggests that sin is necessary for God’s plan. Whether or not one believes in the supernatural, the wisdom of this idea is clear: missing the mark is a natural part of aiming for something greater.
To evolve, both as individuals and as a species, we must take risks and inevitably fall short. This process—of setting goals, failing, and trying again—is what drives progress. Every moment of “sin” is evidence that we’re pushing ourselves beyond our comfort zones and striving toward our best possible selves. This is what we do, consciously or unconsciously, at every point in our lives.
Even competition, often seen as divisive, is tied to this idea. Competition highlights our shortcomings, creating a contrast between where we are and where we want to be. It creates leaders, innovators, and excellence by encouraging us to improve. Of course, competition produces losers, and those losses can feel like failures or even evoke the idea of "evil." But in truth, every loss is an opportunity—a moment to learn, adapt, and grow stronger.
This is why I celebrate sin—not as a call to moral failure but as an embrace of imperfection and growth. Without sin, without missing the mark, we would have no benchmarks for greatness. There would be no leaders to inspire us, no innovators to challenge us, and no progress to drive humanity forward.
I don’t believe in the supernatural, but I see wisdom in the way ancient scribes wove this idea into their teachings. Sin, in its truest sense, is not something to avoid but something to engage with thoughtfully. It is the evidence of our striving, our courage to try, and our commitment to evolve.
So, I invite you: aim high. Take your shot. Miss the mark. Become a sinner in the best way possible. In doing so, you’ll not only create a better version of yourself but also contribute to the collective excellence of humanity.

I see. Thought perhaps you were referring to the time after Jesus preached His gospel and before the NT writers replaced it with the Pauline "gospel" which, for all intents and purposes, is antithetical to it. In doing this, they wrapped a mythology brimming with the supernatural around quotations of the words spoken by Jesus while He preached His gospel.

Recall having seen your "Sin: The Path to Excellence" thread. Either it was a bit of facetiousness or you seriously missed the mark there on so many different levels. If it's the latter, then you must be especially pleased with it.

I am always happy to be corrected.

Please show where exactly I missed the mark and show your bull eye shot ace.

I love being corrected and perfected.

[Greatest I am]

Huh? So you're saying religions don't possess True Believers?

You're free to have your opinion, my experience differs.

If I wanted to say that lie, I would have.

I was reporting what the Bible states.

I base my opinions on a superior criteria than yours and can back them with sound arguments and apologetics.

All your ilk has ever had were inquisitions and jihads.

The older and wiser non-supernatural Christianity was better than the garbage we suffer today.

Judge by morality and see why Yahweh should be in hell.

Unlike your making (ridiculous, as it turns out) assumptions, I enquired whether you were intending to say a particular thing. Again you're free to describe the rationale for your opinions, just don't try to pass them off as fact.

Criticism without argument of any point.

You win this one, even though I put up a great fight against your argument.

Oh. Fucking wait. There was none.

[Janoah]

In Judaism there are practical rules, there is a worldview background, within which there are different, sometimes contradictory ideas, there are no unambiguous dogmas, but there is something that goes without saying.
I propose to discuss Judaism from a philosophical point of view, the pros and, perhaps, the cons.

When do you intend to present your philosophical view of Judaism? I'm interested.

The philosophical background of Judaism is systematically set out by Maimonides, particularly in "The Guide for the Perplexed".
Maimonides relies heavily on Aristotle's proofs.
But Judaism is open to further philosophical developments.
My concept of God is the One Law of Nature.
And this concept does not contradict Judaism.
It is interesting to analyze the philosophical background of the practical rules of Judaism.
For example, Shabbat is the central commandment of Judaism.
Shabbat requires disconnecting from everyday work.
'The father of philosophers', Aristotle, wrote that philosophizing requires leisure, and philosophy is created where time for leisure is provided.
On the other hand, Plato wrote that “there will be no end to misfortunes for either the state or the citizens until the tribe of philosophers becomes the ruler of the state.”
It turns out that Shabbat pushes people to philosophize, or at least not to break away from the wisdom of leading philosophers.
In Ancient Greece, philosophers were persecuted, Socrates was executed, Plato was sold into slavery, Aristotle fled to a distant island after Alexander the Great ended his guardianship.
In Israel, the Sanhedrin was the practical embodiment of the rule of sages that Plato and Aristotle demanded for the good of the state.
And the word the Sanhedrin is borrowed from Greek, by the religious elite.
All this is, of course, ideal, but nevertheless, the essential vectors are interesting.
And Maimonides' philosophy was not rejected by the religious elite, although it was not easy, perhaps also thanks to Shabbat.

[ThinkOfOne]

In Judaism there are practical rules, there is a worldview background, within which there are different, sometimes contradictory ideas, there are no unambiguous dogmas, but there is something that goes without saying.
I propose to discuss Judaism from a philosophical point of view, the pros and, perhaps, the cons.

When do you intend to present your philosophical view of Judaism? I'm interested.

The philosophical background of Judaism is systematically set out by Maimonides, particularly in "The Guide for the Perplexed".
Maimonides relies heavily on Aristotle's proofs.
But Judaism is open to further philosophical developments.
My concept of God is the One Law of Nature.
And this concept does not contradict Judaism.
It is interesting to analyze the philosophical background of the practical rules of Judaism.
For example, Shabbat is the central commandment of Judaism.
Shabbat requires disconnecting from everyday work.
'The father of philosophers', Aristotle, wrote that philosophizing requires leisure, and philosophy is created where time for leisure is provided.
On the other hand, Plato wrote that “there will be no end to misfortunes for either the state or the citizens until the tribe of philosophers becomes the ruler of the state.”
It turns out that Shabbat pushes people to philosophize, or at least not to break away from the wisdom of leading philosophers.
In Ancient Greece, philosophers were persecuted, Socrates was executed, Plato was sold into slavery, Aristotle fled to a distant island after Alexander the Great ended his guardianship.
In Israel, the Sanhedrin was the practical embodiment of the rule of sages that Plato and Aristotle demanded for the good of the state.
And the word the Sanhedrin is borrowed from Greek, by the religious elite.
All this is, of course, ideal, but nevertheless, the essential vectors are interesting.
And Maimonides' philosophy was not rejected by the religious elite, although it was not easy, perhaps also thanks to Shabbat.

Not sure what to make of this. In the OP you seemed interested in discussing your philosophical view of Judaism as it currently stands. Most of this seems to focus on ancient Judaism and ancient philosophy. I have interest in the former, but little interest in the latter.

Also, what do you have in mind with the following?
My concept of God is the One Law of Nature.
Judaism is open to further philosophical developments.

It turns out that Shabbat pushes people to philosophize, or at least not to break away from the wisdom of leading philosophers.
Doesn't seem like this logically follows. Can you elaborate on it? Though leisure time is required for philosophizing, providing leisure time does not necessarily lead to philosophizing. Also, not sure if "wisdom" has necessarily been an attribute of "leading philosophers". Suppose it depends on how one defines "leading philosophers".

In Israel, the Sanhedrin was the practical embodiment of the rule of sages that Plato and Aristotle demanded for the good of the state.
Sound like a reasonable form of government with an emphasis on reason. From what I can tell, a high percentage of adults lack the emotional and/or mental maturity to make sound choices. The past decade or so has shown that percentage is much higher than I had previously thought. As such, democracy has repeatedly shown itself to be prone to demagoguery and its attendant irrationality if not extreme insanity.

Any thoughts on the standard by which the sages ought to be selected?

[Eodnhoj7]

A religion where our sins of missing the mark and evolution is recognized and appreciated.

Google theistic evolution or read the following.

"Sin: The Path to Excellence"
Sin has long been associated with moral failure, but what if we reframe it? I see sin as something essential to human growth—a necessary part of striving for excellence.
At its core, sin simply means “missing the mark.” It’s not about wickedness but about falling short of an ideal. Christianity and even Gnostic traditions acknowledge this idea in different ways. The concept of felix culpa—the “happy fault”—suggests that sin is necessary for God’s plan. Whether or not one believes in the supernatural, the wisdom of this idea is clear: missing the mark is a natural part of aiming for something greater.
To evolve, both as individuals and as a species, we must take risks and inevitably fall short. This process—of setting goals, failing, and trying again—is what drives progress. Every moment of “sin” is evidence that we’re pushing ourselves beyond our comfort zones and striving toward our best possible selves. This is what we do, consciously or unconsciously, at every point in our lives.
Even competition, often seen as divisive, is tied to this idea. Competition highlights our shortcomings, creating a contrast between where we are and where we want to be. It creates leaders, innovators, and excellence by encouraging us to improve. Of course, competition produces losers, and those losses can feel like failures or even evoke the idea of "evil." But in truth, every loss is an opportunity—a moment to learn, adapt, and grow stronger.
This is why I celebrate sin—not as a call to moral failure but as an embrace of imperfection and growth. Without sin, without missing the mark, we would have no benchmarks for greatness. There would be no leaders to inspire us, no innovators to challenge us, and no progress to drive humanity forward.
I don’t believe in the supernatural, but I see wisdom in the way ancient scribes wove this idea into their teachings. Sin, in its truest sense, is not something to avoid but something to engage with thoughtfully. It is the evidence of our striving, our courage to try, and our commitment to evolve.
So, I invite you: aim high. Take your shot. Miss the mark. Become a sinner in the best way possible. In doing so, you’ll not only create a better version of yourself but also contribute to the collective excellence of humanity.

I see. Thought perhaps you were referring to the time after Jesus preached His gospel and before the NT writers replaced it with the Pauline "gospel" which, for all intents and purposes, is antithetical to it. In doing this, they wrapped a mythology brimming with the supernatural around quotations of the words spoken by Jesus while He preached His gospel.

Recall having seen your "Sin: The Path to Excellence" thread. Either it was a bit of facetiousness or you seriously missed the mark there on so many different levels. If it's the latter, then you must be especially pleased with it.

I am always happy to be corrected.

Please show where exactly I missed the mark and show your bull eye shot ace.

I love being corrected and perfected.

Okay, you want corrected?

The continual pursuit of perfection necessitates you are always imperfect, otherwise there would be no pursuit. If there is no pursuit you would cease to exist, so deep within you fear perfection for that would expose your wisdom and knowledge as but a hollow empty circus performance.

[Greatest I am]

I see. Thought perhaps you were referring to the time after Jesus preached His gospel and before the NT writers replaced it with the Pauline "gospel" which, for all intents and purposes, is antithetical to it. In doing this, they wrapped a mythology brimming with the supernatural around quotations of the words spoken by Jesus while He preached His gospel.

Recall having seen your "Sin: The Path to Excellence" thread. Either it was a bit of facetiousness or you seriously missed the mark there on so many different levels. If it's the latter, then you must be especially pleased with it.

I am always happy to be corrected.

Please show where exactly I missed the mark and show your bull eye shot ace.

I love being corrected and perfected.

Okay, you want corrected?

The continual pursuit of perfection necessitates you are always imperfect, otherwise there would be no pursuit. If there is no pursuit you would cease to exist, so deep within you fear perfection for that would expose your wisdom and knowledge as but a hollow empty circus performance.

Great English, but you missed the mark and sinned.

In sports, academics etc.., contests are ongoing in trying to raise the various bars of excellence.

Are they all just circus to you?

I might agree that in the Platonic language of bread an circuses, this is a part of our entertainment.

[Eodnhoj7]

I am always happy to be corrected.

Please show where exactly I missed the mark and show your bull eye shot ace.

I love being corrected and perfected.

Okay, you want corrected?

The continual pursuit of perfection necessitates you are always imperfect, otherwise there would be no pursuit. If there is no pursuit you would cease to exist, so deep within you fear perfection for that would expose your wisdom and knowledge as but a hollow empty circus performance.

Great English, but you missed the mark and sinned.

In sports, academics etc.., contests are ongoing in trying to raise the various bars of excellence.

Are they all just circus to you?

I might agree that in the Platonic language of bread an circuses, this is a part of our entertainment.

And yet you praise sin...I speak of this as a greater sinner than even you.

[Greatest I am]

Okay, you want corrected?

The continual pursuit of perfection necessitates you are always imperfect, otherwise there would be no pursuit. If there is no pursuit you would cease to exist, so deep within you fear perfection for that would expose your wisdom and knowledge as but a hollow empty circus performance.

Great English, but you missed the mark and sinned.

In sports, academics etc.., contests are ongoing in trying to raise the various bars of excellence.

Are they all just circus to you?

I might agree that in the Platonic language of bread an circuses, this is a part of our entertainment.

And yet you praise sin...I speak of this as a greater sinner than even you.

A baseless opinion.

You have not shown this.

[Eodnhoj7]

Great English, but you missed the mark and sinned.

In sports, academics etc.., contests are ongoing in trying to raise the various bars of excellence.

Are they all just circus to you?

I might agree that in the Platonic language of bread an circuses, this is a part of our entertainment.

And yet you praise sin...I speak of this as a greater sinner than even you.

A baseless opinion.

You have not shown this.

You claim truth and yet you prove nothing but contradiction and by default I don't have to justify anything I say for it's proof is occurence in the vast ambiguous void of your statements.

[MikeNovack]

Part of this discussion is going to be opaque to those that do not realize that the Hebrew term being translated as "sin" is also the archery term for "missing the mark". Of course for a warrior people who were archers, "missing the mark" is a "sin" << well a more serious failure than people who are not professional archers would think it >>

[puto]

I am not even going to respond to this so-called philosophical view point of Judaism.

[Greatest I am]

Part of this discussion is going to be opaque to those that do not realize that the Hebrew term being translated as "sin" is also the archery term for "missing the mark". Of course for a warrior people who were archers, "missing the mark" is a "sin" << well a more serious failure than people who are not professional archers would think it >>

See what you think of my views on sin.

"Sin: The Path to Excellence"
Sin has long been associated with moral failure, but what if we reframe it? I see sin as something essential to human growth—a necessary part of striving for excellence.
At its core, sin simply means “missing the mark.” It’s not about wickedness but about falling short of an ideal. Christianity and even Gnostic traditions acknowledge this idea in different ways. The concept of felix culpa—the “happy fault”—suggests that sin is necessary for God’s plan. Whether or not one believes in the supernatural, the wisdom of this idea is clear: missing the mark is a natural part of aiming for something greater.
To evolve, both as individuals and as a species, we must take risks and inevitably fall short. This process—of setting goals, failing, and trying again—is what drives progress. Every moment of “sin” is evidence that we’re pushing ourselves beyond our comfort zones and striving toward our best possible selves. This is what we do, consciously or unconsciously, at every point in our lives.
Even competition, often seen as divisive, is tied to this idea. Competition highlights our shortcomings, creating a contrast between where we are and where we want to be. It creates leaders, innovators, and excellence by encouraging us to improve. Of course, competition produces losers, and those losses can feel like failures or even evoke the idea of "evil." But in truth, every loss is an opportunity—a moment to learn, adapt, and grow stronger.
This is why I celebrate sin—not as a call to moral failure but as an embrace of imperfection and growth. Without sin, without missing the mark, we would have no benchmarks for greatness. There would be no leaders to inspire us, no innovators to challenge us, and no progress to drive humanity forward.
I don’t believe in the supernatural, but I see wisdom in the way ancient scribes wove this idea into their teachings. Sin, in its truest sense, is not something to avoid but something to engage with thoughtfully. It is the evidence of our striving, our courage to try, and our commitment to evolve.
So, I invite you: aim high. Take your shot. Miss the mark. Become a sinner in the best way possible. In doing so, you’ll not only create a better version of yourself but also contribute to the collective excellence of humanity.

[MikeNovack]

Not bad, and typical now might be expressed in the sermon on Yom Kippur by a "modern" rabbi.

But the point I was trying to make is that translation language and culture can distort fine meanings. In other words, you've given a good expression of the "weight" of "missing the mark" in a culture where not making a living as mercenaries specializing in the bow and the sling. All I was saying is that we needed to be careful and recognize that "missing the mark" would be considered a more serious fault when expected, as pros, to almost always hit the mark. Yes, even the best will sometimes miss.

[Greatest I am]

Not bad, and typical now might be expressed in the sermon on Yom Kippur by a "modern" rabbi.

But the point I was trying to make is that translation language and culture can distort fine meanings. In other words, you've given a good expression of the "weight" of "missing the mark" in a culture where not making a living as mercenaries specializing in the bow and the sling. All I was saying is that we needed to be careful and recognize that "missing the mark" would be considered a more serious fault when expected, as pros, to almost always hit the mark. Yes, even the best will sometimes miss.

Let me ad lib a quote/reply from the Bible.

This is the book you quote that is telling you something important.

" The things of the spirit is what I speak to. Not the things of the body."

As to distortions, lest we forget, Jews called Eden where man first showed his Virtue, Original Virtue, and Christians sing of Adam's sin as a happy fault and necessary to God's plan.

Even our continuing mental evolution, not physical, demands that we question everything, especially the laws of a genocidal God.