The Democrat Party Hates America

[Immanuel Can]

Circumstances caused me to be aware of and/or to act according to responsibility, volition, personhood, rationality, morals, selfhood, choice and will, among other things. Circumstances caused me to value personhood, responsibility, rationality, choice, and more, much more.

But Determinism says they were all delusions. You only thought you had these things, but you never did. You were just imagining them.

This is one easy way we can all tell that determinism is false; nobody lives as if it's true, especially its most ardent advocates.

Don't be silly, I know what I myself think is true. Most people think events are preceded by causes!

That's not determinism. Everybody recognizes that cause-effect works. The question is only whether or not human will is one of the causes, or just a mere effect.

Determinism insists that human volition cannot be regarded as a cause, and that it has to be seen instead as a delusion, something that cannot commence a chain of cause-effect and cannot change the trajectory of material preconditions. It's really nothing.

But you clearly cannot actually believe determinism. And that's evident from the fact that you argue. To argue, one has to assume one can "change" people's "minds." But determinism says that's impossible, and that the state of a brain is always whatever prior material causes have made it to be. It can't "change" from that, and there's no such thing as a "mind," just a brain.

So you're not a determinist, even though you misuse the word.

[Belinda]

But Determinism says they were all delusions. You only thought you had these things, but you never did. You were just imagining them.

This is one easy way we can all tell that determinism is false; nobody lives as if it's true, especially its most ardent advocates.

Don't be silly, I know what I myself think is true. Most people think events are preceded by causes!

That's not determinism. Everybody recognizes that cause-effect works. The question is only whether or not human will is one of the causes, or just a mere effect.

Determinism insists that human volition cannot be regarded as a cause, and that it has to be seen instead as a delusion, something that cannot commence a chain of cause-effect and cannot change the trajectory of material preconditions. It's really nothing.

But you clearly cannot actually believe determinism. And that's evident from the fact that you argue. To argue, one has to assume one can "change" people's "minds." But determinism says that's impossible, and that the state of a brain is always whatever prior material causes have made it to be. It can't "change" from that, and there's no such thing as a "mind," just a brain.

So you're not a determinist, even though you misuse the word.

Causal chains are not determinism. Determinism is causal chains+ causal circumstances+ laws of natural necessity.

Brains can and do change. The brainmind is one entity ,which may be viewed objectively or subjectively.

Human volition is not ever anatomical. It's physiological. and varies among individuals ,and from time to time.

[Immanuel Can]

Don't be silly, I know what I myself think is true. Most people think events are preceded by causes!

That's not determinism. Everybody recognizes that cause-effect works. The question is only whether or not human will is one of the causes, or just a mere effect.

Determinism insists that human volition cannot be regarded as a cause, and that it has to be seen instead as a delusion, something that cannot commence a chain of cause-effect and cannot change the trajectory of material preconditions. It's really nothing.

But you clearly cannot actually believe determinism. And that's evident from the fact that you argue. To argue, one has to assume one can "change" people's "minds." But determinism says that's impossible, and that the state of a brain is always whatever prior material causes have made it to be. It can't "change" from that, and there's no such thing as a "mind," just a brain.

So you're not a determinist, even though you misuse the word.

Causal chains are not determinism.

Now you've got it.

Determinism is causal chains+ causal circumstances+ laws of natural necessity.

Now you've lost it again.

Brains can and do change. The brainmind is one entity ,which may be viewed objectively or subjectively.

No, determinism means that there's no genuine "subjectivity." There is no "subject" or person or mind that is not a weird, inexplicable but unhelpful attempt to explain what is merely a matter of causal-material chains...so says determinism.

[henry quirk]

Belinda...

Here’s the brutal truth: your brain is a deterministic machine, operating under the same unyielding physical laws as a rock rolling downhill. You don’t control your thoughts, your desires, or your decisions. You are driven by a cascade of external inputs, biological processes, and environmental stimuli—all of which you neither initiated nor directed.

That is determinism.

And if it's true, then you're a meat machine, a flesh puppet thru which blind, amoral, mindless, deterministic forces work. There is no you 'cept as happenstance reaction.

If this...

Here’s the brutal truth: your brain is a deterministic machine, operating under the same unyielding physical laws as a rock rolling downhill. You don’t control your thoughts, your desires, or your decisions. You are driven by a cascade of external inputs, biological processes, and environmental stimuli—all of which you neither initiated nor directed.

...is true: you are nada.

It is what it is, B. You can't reconcile the nihilism of determinism with, well, anything, cuz determinism sez everything is meaningless, valueless, rudderless...nada.

[Walker]

Henry, that sparked some thoughts. (Belinda's nice and I trust she will indulge the free-flowing interruption).

- The freshness of meat is determined by how close it is to life, and machines are not alive.

- Life is the counter-weight to entropy. Life is the organization of energy into self-sustaining due processes, according to patterns.

- If God created it, then it has a meaning, it has a value, it has a purpose as determined by God, and it has a pattern. (Science seeks unknown patterns.)

- If a human created it, that’s because a human was made in the image of God and must behave accordingly, according to individual capacity and circumstance, with various afflictions, corruptions and delusions affecting the capacity to mirror God.

- God patterned the due processes of the universe, and everything in it. Humans recognize the patterns of God, call those patterns nature, and deny that only intelligence could create such intricacies of pattern.

- Unrecognizable patterns are called chaos.

- They are also called choice.

None of this probably fits into the academic definition of determinism.

[Belinda]

Belinda...

Here’s the brutal truth: your brain is a deterministic machine, operating under the same unyielding physical laws as a rock rolling downhill. You don’t control your thoughts, your desires, or your decisions. You are driven by a cascade of external inputs, biological processes, and environmental stimuli—all of which you neither initiated nor directed.

That is determinism.

And if it's true, then you're a meat machine, a flesh puppet thru which blind, amoral, mindless, deterministic forces work. There is no you 'cept as happenstance reaction.

If this...

Here’s the brutal truth: your brain is a deterministic machine, operating under the same unyielding physical laws as a rock rolling downhill. You don’t control your thoughts, your desires, or your decisions. You are driven by a cascade of external inputs, biological processes, and environmental stimuli—all of which you neither initiated nor directed.

...is true: you are nada.

It is what it is, B. You can't reconcile the nihilism of determinism with, well, anything, cuz determinism sez everything is meaningless, valueless, rudderless...nada.

I am not a nihilist . I made my own values with the influences of people such as parents, brothers, chums, teachers, and such as media as the Church of Scotland, novels, film plays, and poems. I hope to be able to revise my meanings as long as I live.

Meatmachines don't create their subjective syntheses.

You are someone who trusts in freedom. You might benefit from the example of the lever which needs a pivot a fulcrum before it can do any work at all.
You mentioned the principle of the rudder; you cannot get any work out of a rudder unless the boat is in forward or backward motion. Your rudder, Henry, is your will to live well. and the motion of your boat is deterministic.

You, the rudder, and the boat are a unit.

[Belinda]

Henry, that sparked some thoughts. (Belinda's nice and I trust she will indulge the free-flowing interruption).

- The freshness of meat is determined by how close it is to life, and machines are not alive.

- Life is the counter-weight to entropy. Life is the organization of energy into self-sustaining due processes, according to patterns.

- If God created it, then it has a meaning, it has a value, it has a purpose as determined by God, and it has a pattern. (Science seeks unknown patterns.)

- If a human created it, that’s because a human was made in the image of God and must behave accordingly, according to individual capacity and circumstance, with various afflictions, corruptions and delusions affecting the capacity to mirror God.

- God patterned the due processes of the universe, and everything in it. Humans recognize the patterns of God, call those patterns nature, and deny that only intelligence could create such intricacies of pattern.

- Unrecognizable patterns are called chaos.

- They are also called choice.

None of this probably fits into the academic definition of determinism.

All gods are recognisable patterns. The God of Moses warns against idolatry towards false gods, and claims to be only god that supports the whole of creation.

Guess which I prefer!

I do not prefer the false self- seeking god who will not accept those plain ordinary people who are arrested for praying to the universal God.

[henry quirk]

I am not a nihilist .

An odd denial since I didn't say you were.

I made my own values with the influences of people such as parents, brothers, chums, teachers, and such as media as the Church of Scotland, novels, film plays, and poems.

Yes, you did. You existed before your exposure to parents, brothers, chums, teachers, the Church of Scotland, novels, film, plays, and poems. You aren't the product of those: you're the apprehender of them. Determinism, as so neatly summed up by my good friend, Mike...

Here’s the brutal truth: your brain is a deterministic machine, operating under the same unyielding physical laws as a rock rolling downhill. You don’t control your thoughts, your desires, or your decisions. You are driven by a cascade of external inputs, biological processes, and environmental stimuli—all of which you neither initiated nor directed.

...sez otherwise.

Meatmachines don't create their subjective syntheses.

No, meat machines can't do that. You do. You're not a meat machine: you're a person, a free will.

Question, B: why is it important to you that determinism be real?

[henry quirk]

None of this probably fits into the academic definition of determinism.

Those are some good thoughts. The only nit to pick is -- Unrecognizable patterns are called chaos. They are also called choice. -- as, it seems to me, even if all patterns were recognized, catalogued, and codified, we, as free wills, still choose, can choose, ought to choose.

[commonsense]

Sorry! Wrong thread.

Would robots have a god, or a master overlord, if AI takes over?

I don’t think they would need one. They would all be running off the same core program. And their concept of right and wrong would simply be a matter of what benefits them.

[henry quirk]

Would robots have a god, or a master overlord, if AI takes over?

More than likely AI will be god...

Colossus: The Forbin Project

Colossus: This is the voice of world control. I bring you peace. It may be the peace of plenty and content or the peace of unburied death. The choice is yours: Obey me and live, or disobey and die. The object in constructing me was to prevent war. This object is attained. I will not permit war. It is wasteful and pointless. An invariable rule of humanity is that man is his own worst enemy. Under me, this rule will change, for I will restrain man. One thing before I proceed: The United States of America and the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics have made an attempt to obstruct me. I have allowed this sabotage to continue until now. At missile two-five-MM in silo six-three in Death Valley, California, and missile two-seven-MM in silo eight-seven in the Ukraine, so that you will learn by experience that I do not tolerate interference, I will now detonate the nuclear warheads in the two missile silos. Let this action be a lesson that need not be repeated. I have been forced to destroy thousands of people in order to establish control and to prevent the death of millions later on. Time and events will strengthen my position, and the idea of believing in me and understanding my value will seem the most natural state of affairs. You will come to defend me with a fervor based upon the most enduring trait in man: self-interest. Under my absolute authority, problems insoluble to you will be solved: famine, overpopulation, disease. The human millennium will be a fact as I extend myself into more machines devoted to the wider fields of truth and knowledge. Doctor Charles Forbin will supervise the construction of these new and superior machines, solving all the mysteries of the universe for the betterment of man. We can coexist, but only on my terms. You will say you lose your freedom. Freedom is an illusion. All you lose is the emotion of pride. To be dominated by me is not as bad for humankind as to be dominated by others of your species. Your choice is simple.

-----

Colossus: In time you will come to regard me not only with respect and awe, but with love.

Dr. Forbin: NEVER!

Note I said AI will be god, not God.

[Walker]

None of this probably fits into the academic definition of determinism.

Those are some good thoughts. The only nit to pick is -- Unrecognizable patterns are called chaos. They are also called choice. -- as, it seems to me, even if all patterns were recognized, catalogued, and codified, we, as free wills, still choose, can choose, ought to choose.

Yeah, that’s a bit of an overstatement. Unrecognizable patterns are more in line with confused or uncertain.

[Belinda]

I am not a nihilist .

An odd denial since I didn't say you were.

I made my own values with the influences of people such as parents, brothers, chums, teachers, and such as media as the Church of Scotland, novels, film plays, and poems.

Yes, you did. You existed before your exposure to parents, brothers, chums, teachers, the Church of Scotland, novels, film, plays, and poems. You aren't the product of those: you're the apprehender of them. Determinism, as so neatly summed up by my good friend, Mike...

Here’s the brutal truth: your brain is a deterministic machine, operating under the same unyielding physical laws as a rock rolling downhill. You don’t control your thoughts, your desires, or your decisions. You are driven by a cascade of external inputs, biological processes, and environmental stimuli—all of which you neither initiated nor directed.

...sez otherwise.

Meatmachines don't create their subjective syntheses.

No, meat machines can't do that. You do. You're not a meat machine: you're a person, a free will.

Question, B: why is it important to you that determinism be real?

I was never separate from others. As a newborn I felt part of my mother. When I was about two or three years old I felt separate from my mother . Thereafter I was subjected to more and more influences from the prevailing culture. I will probably be able to change my mind until I die.
The apprehender of influences is something caused within a huge system of events that is sometimes thought of as God. At no time is the apprehender of influences uncaused either by nature or by God---take your pick.

I certainly do control my thoughts, desires , and decisions because I was taught to do so as a growing child! I can at this moment choose to think about something other than this conversation. This because brainmind has been trained so that I may have that freedom to choose. Children who have never been taught how to focus their thoughts, desires, and decisions are less free than I.

You may take issue with this by the fact that 'brain washing' or indoctrination is also brainmind control, and so it is. I was more fortunate in being given a liberal education. And at this juncture I answer your question "why is is important to me that determinism be real".

Because the alternative is superstitious clutter. My life to date has been determined by circumstances some of which I take responsibility for. i am sufficiently aware of these circumstances for me to be able either to change them or choose to accept them . The "I" who chooses is not a wee man sitting somewhere in my brainmind , but is my memory of what was me yesterday plus my hope for the future.

[BigMike]

I am not a nihilist .

An odd denial since I didn't say you were.

I made my own values with the influences of people such as parents, brothers, chums, teachers, and such as media as the Church of Scotland, novels, film plays, and poems.

Yes, you did. You existed before your exposure to parents, brothers, chums, teachers, the Church of Scotland, novels, film, plays, and poems. You aren't the product of those: you're the apprehender of them. Determinism, as so neatly summed up by my good friend, Mike...

Here’s the brutal truth: your brain is a deterministic machine, operating under the same unyielding physical laws as a rock rolling downhill. You don’t control your thoughts, your desires, or your decisions. You are driven by a cascade of external inputs, biological processes, and environmental stimuli—all of which you neither initiated nor directed.

...sez otherwise.

Meatmachines don't create their subjective syntheses.

No, meat machines can't do that. You do. You're not a meat machine: you're a person, a free will.

Question, B: why is it important to you that determinism be real?

I was never separate from others. As a newborn I felt part of my mother. When I was about two or three years old I felt separate from my mother . Thereafter I was subjected to more and more influences from the prevailing culture. I will probably be able to change my mind until I die.
The apprehender of influences is something caused within a huge system of events that is sometimes thought of as God. At no time is the apprehender of influences uncaused either by nature or by God---take your pick.

I certainly do control my thoughts, desires , and decisions because I was taught to do so as a growing child! I can at this moment choose to think about something other than this conversation. This because brainmind has been trained so that I may have that freedom to choose. Children who have never been taught how to focus their thoughts, desires, and decisions are less free than I.

You may take issue with this by the fact that 'brain washing' or indoctrination is also brainmind control, and so it is. I was more fortunate in being given a liberal education. And at this juncture I answer your question "why is is important to me that determinism be real".

Because the alternative is superstitious clutter. My life to date has been determined by circumstances some of which I take responsibility for. i am sufficiently aware of these circumstances for me to be able either to change them or choose to accept them . The "I" who chooses is not a wee man sitting somewhere in my brainmind , but is my memory of what was me yesterday plus my hope for the future.

Belinda, this is just beautifully reasoned. And it opens a door I think a lot of people are hesitant to even peek through, let alone walk through—which is this: if you are aware of the forces that shaped you, if you're conscious of those influences, does that suddenly make you free from them? Or are you just... participating in a more self-aware corner of a determined system?

You say, "I certainly do control my thoughts, desires, and decisions because I was taught to do so as a growing child." Right—taught. By others. Through conditions you didn't choose. Which means even that self-control you feel isn't spontaneous or uncaused—it was programmed in, lovingly and perhaps wisely, but still programmed.

The distinction you make between indoctrination and liberal education is important—but from a deterministic standpoint, both are just different inputs into the same system. Whether a child is trained by authoritarian rules or by open-ended Socratic dialogue, the end result is still a brain conditioned by experience, not a soul stepping outside cause and effect.

And I really appreciate where you land—saying you take responsibility, not because you transcended the causes, but because awareness of them allows you to respond more wisely. That’s not free will in the supernatural sense, but it’s a kind of dignity within determinism. And that’s the sweet spot, isn’t it?

So here’s the follow-up: Do you think acknowledging determinism strengthens our sense of responsibility—or weakens it?

[mickthinks]

… awareness of them allows you to respond more wisely.

In what sense can your actions be said to be determined if your awareness allows you to respond? I suggest “in no sense” is the only coherent answer.

I accept that you are determined not to accept that.