Why do guys who dress as girls get so much hate but not the other way around?

[Flannel Jesus]

Well, that's a fair point and a little more difficult to assess. I mean, dresses look like they could be comfortable. Maybe wear a pair of comfortable athletic shoes with it. Hmm. What do you think? Do you think men should be allowed to dress like women at their own discretion, even in public or professional places? What are your thoughts on that? Do you think there are any good reasons to discourage men from dressing in clothes that are normally only worn by women?

Women are already allowed to dress like men in the workplace. I literally wear men's shirts (complete with buttons on the men's side) at work and this occasionally causes someone's brain to go for a bit of a loop but has not so far caused major problems.

So I do not see why a man could not dress as a woman at my workplace. Obviously a cute cocktail dress would not work here for a man or a woman but something more sensible could easily work. However, I do not think most people who work here or most customers are ready for something like that yet. (I am in a blue state in a purple county.)

There is a certain amount of arbitrary in all of this. One of my female coworkers wears jeans (like I do) but her shirts are cute and in girly colors and have frilly things on them and have buttons of the girl side and she has shoulder length hair. Her presentation of herself does not cause anyone's brains do go for a loop. A man dressing like this would risk a beating from the local white trash, unfortunately.

I think this is a really interesting question. I think there's two takes (not mutually exclusive):

Take 1: I think part of it has to do with the power-dynamics between men and women. Men are seen as more powerful, and so a woman dressing like a man is seen as a woman trying to gain power, which, if nothing else, is at least respectable. Women are seen as weaker and submissive, and so for a man to actively choose to be more woman-like is shameful -- it seen as similar as a man suddenly donning a child-like persona, infantilizing himself. Imagine a grown man suddenly talking to you in a baby voice - it's weird, cringe-inducing. Seeing a man wear womens clothes is perceived in a similar but different directiont o that.

Take 2: Man as default. The a lot of people, it isn't "men and women", it's closer to "normal people and women". Men are the default, and women are a (slightly alien) modification of the default. Main characters tend to be men (less so now, but especially historically). Woman was made from Adam's rib. So the world consists of Men, and the creatures that serve men. If someone has such a world view, it's strange to see someone who could just easily be "normal" choose to take on this lesser alien role.

Neither of the above are me saying those views are good to have, or correct to have, but I do think people have them, and I do think they're part of what makes it acceptable for women to dress like men but not the reverse.

I'm not homophobic in the least, but I personally find it unsettling to see men dress like women. My girlfriend watches a show called Queer Eye from time to time, and there's a dude with a beard who wears dresses, and though I believe it is 100% his right to wear dresses and I would never want to take away that right, I feel a visceral discomfort seeing him. I won't pretend to know all the psychological factors about WHY I feel that way, but I imagine some combination of the above 2 takes, as well as other factors, go into it.

[Atla]

So I am a girl and I have a number three brush cut and dress like a guy. This sometimes confuses people who are not sure if I am a guy or a girl, and sometimes they act weird about it, and say I would like a lot prettier with longer hair and so forth.

But guys who have long hair and dress like girls get serious hate - i.e. the kind of hate that can get your face stomped on late at night (or even not so late) if you are not careful.

Why is this?

Maybe it's partly because men are like 50% stronger physically, it would be unmanly for them to treat men and women equally. A woman can mess around and even dress like a man and that's fine, but for a man to dress up and act like a woman when he is still a physically inherently stronger man, is absolutely not fine. Men are expected to behave.

[accelafine]

Men get a sexual kick out of it and they get to bully and intimidate women at the same time. Clueless handmaidens like the OP author are enabling and encouraging them via sites like Tik Tok. Men who publicly display their autogynaephilia are now lauded as 'stunning and brave' and treated like heroes. No wonder they a slithering out from under their slimy rocks like an invasion of ants in the kitchen.
You are correct in your point re 'default human'. It's a case of 'Men are whatever men say they are and women are whatever men say they are'.
Well they can go fuck themselves.

[accelafine]

So I am a girl and I have a number three brush cut and dress like a guy. This sometimes confuses people who are not sure if I am a guy or a girl, and sometimes they act weird about it, and say I would like a lot prettier with longer hair and so forth.

But guys who have long hair and dress like girls get serious hate - i.e. the kind of hate that can get your face stomped on late at night (or even not so late) if you are not careful.

Why is this?

Maybe it's partly because men are like 50% stronger physically, it would be unmanly for them to treat men and women equally. A woman can mess around and even dress like a man and that's fine, but for a man to dress up and act like a woman when he is still a physically inherently stronger man, is absolutely not fine. Men are expected to behave.

'Men's clothes' are basically just neutral clothes that anyone can wear. I haven't seen any women walking around the streets in tuxedos or suits and ties, but they would need to get them custom made to fit and I doubt if any women could be bothered going to that much effort. Most men don't wear tuxedos or suits either-- and if they do it's only when they have to. What we are talking about are sex specific 'women's clothes' that give some men a sexual high when they wear them.

[popeye1945]

No, you are either quite young and have not lived through the movement's development, or you have done squat research.

https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=Nu ... 3d&first=1

The movement goes back to the 19th century if not earlier so no one has lived through its development.

Not sure what age has to do with it. I am old enough to have seen that the men who are most prone to going on and on about importance of nuclear family are the men most likely to be abusive assholes.

Have a nice day!

[carlafeit]

Neither of the above are me saying those views are good to have, or correct to have, but I do think people have them, and I do think they're part of what makes it acceptable for women to dress like men but not the reverse.

That is probably at least part of what is going on. A woman dressing like a man doesn't break normality as much.

Also, male clothes are not as dependent on the wearer's particular body shape.

I'm not homophobic in the least, but I personally find it unsettling to see men dress like women. My girlfriend watches a show called Queer Eye from time to time, and there's a dude with a beard who wears dresses, and though I believe it is 100% his right to wear dresses and I would never want to take away that right, I feel a visceral discomfort seeing him. I won't pretend to know all the psychological factors about WHY I feel that way, but I imagine some combination of the above 2 takes, as well as other factors, go into it.

I occasionally visit an establishment that has staff and clientele that are highly tolerant of people dressing in a way unapproved by the GOP - so I get to see men wearing dresses. They often look ridiculous not because of anything inherently ridiculous in men wearing dresses, but because they do not know how to do it properly, how to pick a dress that goes with their body shape, that sort of thing. And being men, they are often not open to some friendly feedback.

But none of this explains that violent (literally) hate that dress-wearing men cause in some (by no means rare, unfortunately) men.

[carlafeit]

Maybe it's partly because men are like 50% stronger physically, it would be unmanly for them to treat men and women equally. A woman can mess around and even dress like a man and that's fine, but for a man to dress up and act like a woman when he is still a physically inherently stronger man, is absolutely not fine. Men are expected to behave.

They are!? A man yelling obscenities at women in public is less likely to get his face bashed in than a man minding his own business by wearing a dress in public.

[carlafeit]

How stunning and brave: 'buttons on the left hand side' Can you even hear yourself?

I never claimed any kind of bravery on my part. But I see to have dislodged some deep-seated anger on your part.

A workplace is a private environment of business. The owners can enforce whatever dress code they want. If it involves working with the public then attire should be neutral and not shoving any kind of politics or fetish in others' faces. You shouldn't be allowed to do that with workmates either--it's a form of bullying. They do it because they know they can get away with it. Everyone is running scared of these fascists in bad wigs and heels.

Never had customers complain about my attire. I had customers give me unsolicited advice about my attire and hair but they never took this up with management.

I think the management is more concerned about me showing up on time and doing my job - and since my attire does not get in the way of either, it is not an issue, at least not as far as work is concerned.

[Atla]

Maybe it's partly because men are like 50% stronger physically, it would be unmanly for them to treat men and women equally. A woman can mess around and even dress like a man and that's fine, but for a man to dress up and act like a woman when he is still a physically inherently stronger man, is absolutely not fine. Men are expected to behave.

They are!? A man yelling obscenities at women in public is less likely to get his face bashed in than a man minding his own business by wearing a dress in public.

That's BS

[accelafine]

Maybe it's partly because men are like 50% stronger physically, it would be unmanly for them to treat men and women equally. A woman can mess around and even dress like a man and that's fine, but for a man to dress up and act like a woman when he is still a physically inherently stronger man, is absolutely not fine. Men are expected to behave.

They are!? A man yelling obscenities at women in public is less likely to get his face bashed in than a man minding his own business by wearing a dress in public.

Where do you get your 'stats' from? I've been around a lot longer than you and I've never seen a man in a frock get his head bashed in. Perhaps you move in seedy circles. Besides, it's only one man bashing in another man's head. What's it to you? The man in the frock might be twice as strong as the one who isn't.

And why are you 'miss gendering' them? How 'transphobic'. Doesn't a dress make someone automatically a 'biological woman'? You are committing LITERAL MURDER

[popeye1945]

Carlafeit,

Perhaps it would help us all out in this thread, if you outlined your vision of just how society should be. You might be surprised at the number of people with similar views, perhaps not, but we might get some clarification. Are you up to the task?

[accelafine]

It would seem that she's gone from one cult straight into another one. Fairly standard.

[RickLewis]

It would seem that she's gone from one cult straight into another one. Fairly standard.

I thought I banned you for seven days for your spittle-flecked attack on a new forum member? I must have hit the wrong button. Banning your now, come back in a week if you can behave.

[carlafeit]

Carlafeit,

Perhaps it would help us all out in this thread, if you outlined your vision of just how society should be. You might be surprised at the number of people with similar views, perhaps not, but we might get some clarification. Are you up to the task?

Lol. Less than two years ago I ran away from home (which was part of a fundamentalist Christian cult) as an 18th birthday gift to myself.

For about a year I have been working at a farm supply store on the other end of the country - because I need a job to survive and I know my farming and the Bible and I have half-decent people skills - all parts of my upbringing - and I do not want to work at a Christian book shop.

So I hope you have it in you to not be too harsh on me for not having come up with much in the way of detailed ideas of how society should be.

I mean, I think beating someone up because they are a guy dressed as a girl is a terrible reason for beating someone up. I would like to see a society where this doesn't happen. I mean, this should not happen even if the guy looks utterly ridiculous in a dress. Heck, not all girls look good in a dress - you need the right body type.

Also, I would like to see a society where fewer people believe that people from Haiti steal dogs and cats and eat them - the fact that half of my fellow citizens literally believe this scares me. More generally I would like to see more people in our society being able to recognize such claims for the horseshit that they obviously are.

[carlafeit]

It would seem that she's gone from one cult straight into another one. Fairly standard.

I thought I banned you for seven days for your spittle-flecked attack on a new forum member? I must have hit the wrong button. Banning your now, come back in a week if you can behave.

Thank you Rick.

I posted what I thought was a pretty straightforward questions - and the hate I got - together with a lot of assumptions about what I believe - has been very weird.