FreeWill vs Determinism Resolved

[Flannel Jesus]

Most Determinists I know, disagree with you and believe that human decision making would be 100% predictable if the brain-state was able to be measured in enough detail.

I doubt it. If they do think that, they're using a strange definition of "predict" or they haven't thought very hard about it. The 3 body problem is chaotic enough to be deterministic but unpredictable - a human being is many many orders of magnitude more chaotic than the 3 body problem.

I think most determinists do believe that.

There's a difference between something being, in principle, able to be calculated, and something being predictable. Determinists believe the former, while wizard is confused and thinks determinists think that the future is in practice predictable. Obviously he's severely mistaken.

[Noax]

Most Determinists I know, disagree with you and believe that human decision making would be 100% predictable if the brain-state was able to be measured in enough detail.

Like FJ, I disagree with this. I don't seem to encounter any self-described determinists that actually assert this. It seems to reference a strawman determinist who is as uninformed of physics as the one who made him up.

In the most simple case, you watch some nucleus for a finite time and see if it decays. No matter how well the state of the nucleus is known, even in principle, a prediction of will-decay/will not cannot be made. Physics may or may not be deterministic, but it very much is fundamentally unpredictable.

You missed the point entirely...classic FJ mistake.

Hey Flannel, Wizard22 disagrees with you. You must be hitting the mark. I'd immediately question my post if he ever agreed with me.

I think Philomena cunk really says it best

I've used the video game VR analogy myself in numerous posts. I usually reach for Lara Croft instead of Sonic, but hey, who doesn't?
Who has the free will, Sonic, who is possessed by an external player and has no control of his own actions, or the NPC who's decisions are his own, but are a product of the otherwise deterministic physics of the game?

[Age]

Huh? The way to "resolve" the Free Will vs Determinism debate is to be able to predict with 100% accuracy human decision making through knowledge of the brainstate before the decision is made. Until then, the debate continues.

Or, there IS the 'other way'.

Please elucidate.

After one realizes that the only, ACTUAL, 'debate', here, is the fighting for, over, against the 'terms of words', then ANY and ALL 'debate' can STOP. Thus, the ACTUAL 'issue' can then BE RESOLVED.

[Age]

Wizard. He's erroneously convinced that determinism means everything is perfectly predictable because he doesn't understand abstract concepts like chaotic motion, or probably even what the word "predict" actually means. For that matter, probably not "determinism" either

Let's assume that the Free Will vs Determinism debate is currently unresolved (like it is in reality),

ONCE MORE, what might be unresolved, to some, NEVER necessarily means that 'it' is unresolved, to all.

Now, what is being discussed, here, HAS ALREADY BEEN RESOLVED. Well to some of 'us', here, anyway.

and let's replace the exact mechanism of how human decision making works with a Black Box. We know that various factors before the Black Box Influence the output decision, but that influence while more than pure chance is much less than 100% predictability (which would imply causation). If one declares that in fact Determinism cannot predict human decision making no matter the amount of detailed knowledge of the brain-state before decision making, then what goes into and out of the Black Box would be essentially identical between Free Will and Determinism, thus it doesn't matter which is true because both would be consistent with our observation of human decision making, that is the debate is moot. Most Determinists I know, disagree with you and believe that human decision making would be 100% predictable if the brain-state was able to be measured in enough detail.

[accelafine]

Wizard. He's erroneously convinced that determinism means everything is perfectly predictable because he doesn't understand abstract concepts like chaotic motion, or probably even what the word "predict" actually means. For that matter, probably not "determinism" either

Let's assume that the Free Will vs Determinism debate is currently unresolved (like it is in reality),

ONCE MORE, what might be unresolved, to some, NEVER necessarily means that 'it' is unresolved, to all.

Now, what is being discussed, here, HAS ALREADY BEEN RESOLVED. Well to some of 'us', here, anyway.

and let's replace the exact mechanism of how human decision making works with a Black Box. We know that various factors before the Black Box Influence the output decision, but that influence while more than pure chance is much less than 100% predictability (which would imply causation). If one declares that in fact Determinism cannot predict human decision making no matter the amount of detailed knowledge of the brain-state before decision making, then what goes into and out of the Black Box would be essentially identical between Free Will and Determinism, thus it doesn't matter which is true because both would be consistent with our observation of human decision making, that is the debate is moot. Most Determinists I know, disagree with you and believe that human decision making would be 100% predictable if the brain-state was able to be measured in enough detail.

[accelafine]

Or, there IS the 'other way'.

Please elucidate.

After one realizes that the only, ACTUAL, 'debate', here, is the fighting for, over, against the 'terms of words', then ANY and ALL 'debate' can STOP. Thus, the ACTUAL 'issue' can then BE RESOLVED.