FreeWill vs Determinism Resolved

[Flannel Jesus]

When will this dimwit just go read a book?

Which dimwit? I choose VA...

If the dimwit is Wizzy.... no comment

Wizard. He's erroneously convinced that determinism means everything is perfectly predictable because he doesn't understand abstract concepts like chaotic motion, or probably even what the word "predict" actually means. For that matter, probably not "determinism" either

[Wizard22]

So Determinism is or is not about predicting the effects from causes???

Determinists are the ones who argue that Existence is perfectly predictable, NOT me, and NOT Free-Will-ists.

This just proves that you don't understand your own beliefs.

[Flannel Jesus]

So Determinism is or is not about predicting the effects from causes???

Not

[FlashDangerpants]

When will this dimwit just go read a book?

Which dimwit? I choose VA...

If the dimwit is Wizzy.... no comment

Wizard. He's erroneously convinced that determinism means everything is perfectly predictable because he doesn't understand abstract concepts like chaotic motion, or probably even what the word "predict" actually means. For that matter, probably not "determinism" either

I see the issue. The fun thing is I wouldn't have been able to without you pointing it out for me.

[Wizard22]

So you admit that you don't know the effects to any cause...self-checkmate???

[Flannel Jesus]

Which dimwit? I choose VA...

If the dimwit is Wizzy.... no comment

Wizard. He's erroneously convinced that determinism means everything is perfectly predictable because he doesn't understand abstract concepts like chaotic motion, or probably even what the word "predict" actually means. For that matter, probably not "determinism" either

I see the issue. The fun thing is I wouldn't have been able to without you pointing it out for me.

Yeah honestly it's a common confusion amongst people who don't think carefully.

[FlashDangerpants]

Wizard. He's erroneously convinced that determinism means everything is perfectly predictable because he doesn't understand abstract concepts like chaotic motion, or probably even what the word "predict" actually means. For that matter, probably not "determinism" either

I see the issue. The fun thing is I wouldn't have been able to without you pointing it out for me.

Yeah honestly it's a common confusion amongst people who don't think carefully.

Hah, touché

[Flannel Jesus]

I see the issue. The fun thing is I wouldn't have been able to without you pointing it out for me.

Yeah honestly it's a common confusion amongst people who don't think carefully.

Hah, touché

I mean wizard, not you. Not sure if that was clear

[FlashDangerpants]

Yeah honestly it's a common confusion amongst people who don't think carefully.

Hah, touché

I mean wizard, not you. Not sure if that was clear

I did get it. But I couldn't help but notice that it still is quite applicable to me, at least in this particular issue.

[LuckyR]

Wizard. He's erroneously convinced that determinism means everything is perfectly predictable because he doesn't understand abstract concepts like chaotic motion, or probably even what the word "predict" actually means. For that matter, probably not "determinism" either

Let's assume that the Free Will vs Determinism debate is currently unresolved (like it is in reality), and let's replace the exact mechanism of how human decision making works with a Black Box. We know that various factors before the Black Box Influence the output decision, but that influence while more than pure chance is much less than 100% predictability (which would imply causation). If one declares that in fact Determinism cannot predict human decision making no matter the amount of detailed knowledge of the brain-state before decision making, then what goes into and out of the Black Box would be essentially identical between Free Will and Determinism, thus it doesn't matter which is true because both would be consistent with our observation of human decision making, that is the debate is moot. Most Determinists I know, disagree with you and believe that human decision making would be 100% predictable if the brain-state was able to be measured in enough detail.

[Flannel Jesus]

Most Determinists I know, disagree with you and believe that human decision making would be 100% predictable if the brain-state was able to be measured in enough detail.

I doubt it. If they do think that, they're using a strange definition of "predict" or they haven't thought very hard about it. The 3 body problem is chaotic enough to be deterministic but unpredictable - a human being is many many orders of magnitude more chaotic than the 3 body problem.

[Atla]

When it comes to predictability in determinism, does it typically mean that something is predictable by humans in practice, or that it is theorethically predictable by an outside observer with limitless resources? Summary only.

In determinism, predictability typically refers to theoretical predictability by an ideal observer with limitless resources, rather than practical predictability by humans, which is often constrained by complexity and limitations in knowledge or tools.

[Wizard22]

I doubt it. If they do think that, they're using a strange definition of "predict" or they haven't thought very hard about it. The 3 body problem is chaotic enough to be deterministic but unpredictable - a human being is many many orders of magnitude more chaotic than the 3 body problem.

You missed the point entirely...classic FJ mistake.

A Determinist system or framework, are entirely predictable based on YOUR Deterministic beliefs.

Because YOU do not presume any type of randomness or chaos within your own definition of Determinism.

Randomness/Chaos would be...something like an Uncaused-cause, or events without a cause at all, spontaneity.

Or best yet, that there are no Causes in Nature to begin with!

[phyllo]

Most Determinists I know, disagree with you and believe that human decision making would be 100% predictable if the brain-state was able to be measured in enough detail.

I doubt it. If they do think that, they're using a strange definition of "predict" or they haven't thought very hard about it. The 3 body problem is chaotic enough to be deterministic but unpredictable - a human being is many many orders of magnitude more chaotic than the 3 body problem.

I think most determinists do believe that.

But there is a big difference between hypothetical thought experiments and real life human capabilities. It would require an instantaneous gathering of all information about the brain and a perfect understanding of how it all functions. Practically nonsense.

And while we are on the topic of predictions, wouldn't it, also hypothetically, be possible to predict what a free-will person would do?

They don't decide and act without reason.

I would be quite concerned if my free-will neighbor was liable to do literally anything at any time.

[Flannel Jesus]

I think Philomena cunk really says it best:

https://www.instagram.com/reel/DFOHKzPs ... E4eWdhcw==