The Case Against Suicide

[Atla]

Maybe I just can’t really fathom wants and needs.

To me if I don’t have to do something then I don’t do it. Saying you want something feels weak to me because I think wants are weaker than needs.

Well, get used to the idea that you'll live without an ultimate reason, and you'll do things without having to do them in an ultimate sense..

Well that’s not really it.

It’s more like people have reasons, they’re just not ultimate purpose. They do stuff because they want to, no always because they have to.

And to me being motivated by “want to” still eludes me. It seems like a weaker reason than needing to, because if you need to there is no choice whereas with wants you don’t need them.

I don't remember mentioning wants. Yes wants are "weaker" than needs.

I said that if our life is worse than death (and we are sure that this won't change in the future), then suicide is arguably the rational choice. We need life to be better than death, at least on the long run.

Having no ultimate reason for living is really bad, but not bad enough to make life worse than death (for the vast majority).

I didn't "want" to be born into this world, I just was.

[attofishpi]

Gazza!! Are you going to answer this extremely important question I am asking..

Annoying would be putting it mildly. I turn into a whimpering idiot. I suffer from paranoid delusions when I'm off my meds.

So you don't gradually reduce them, it's just nope, not taking them now?

[Gary Childress]

Gazza!! Are you going to answer this extremely important question I am asking..

Annoying would be putting it mildly. I turn into a whimpering idiot. I suffer from paranoid delusions when I'm off my meds.

So you don't gradually reduce them, it's just nope, not taking them now?

I went off them and stayed off of them for about a year at one point and did fine until I finally ended up in the hospital again. I remember sitting in the emergency room sobbing over something. Later that night I was tossing and turning in the bed, thinking demons and all sorts of things were after me.

[Darkneos]

There are just REASONS WHY people want to "kill themselves". And, once the fundamental reason was found, then what NEEDS CHANGING became known.

Bang on, as usual. Hire a hitman to do it.

Not really, I was wondering when the insane ones would come out.

There is NO 'case' AGAINST suicide, just like there is NO 'case' FOR suicide. There are just REASONS WHY people want to "kill themselves". And, once the fundamental reason was found, then what NEEDS CHANGING became known.

That is a case for suicide you idiot...

[Darkneos]

Well, get used to the idea that you'll live without an ultimate reason, and you'll do things without having to do them in an ultimate sense..

Well that’s not really it.

It’s more like people have reasons, they’re just not ultimate purpose. They do stuff because they want to, no always because they have to.

And to me being motivated by “want to” still eludes me. It seems like a weaker reason than needing to, because if you need to there is no choice whereas with wants you don’t need them.

I don't remember mentioning wants. Yes wants are "weaker" than needs.

I said that if our life is worse than death (and we are sure that this won't change in the future), then suicide is arguably the rational choice. We need life to be better than death, at least on the long run.

Having no ultimate reason for living is really bad, but not bad enough to make life worse than death (for the vast majority).

I didn't "want" to be born into this world, I just was.

Well the no ultimate reason being bad isn't true from what I hear. Some would say having an ultimate reason for being alive is bad because you don't really get a say in it, you just have to follow it. Reminds me of the Rick and Morty episode "what is my purpose?" "you pass butter".

Maybe no ultimate reason is a good thing now that I think about it. I never realized how stifling that would be

[attofishpi]

Gazza!! Are you going to answer this extremely important question I am asking..

Annoying would be putting it mildly. I turn into a whimpering idiot. I suffer from paranoid delusions when I'm off my meds.

So you don't gradually reduce them, it's just nope, not taking them now?

I went off them and stayed off of them for about a year at one point and did fine until I finally ended up in the hospital again. I remember sitting in the emergency room sobbing over something. Later that night I was tossing and turning in the bed, thinking demons and all sorts of things were after me.

Well I've got the certificate, but I can't comprehend that. The trick is, know WHEN to self-medicate - and again, a gradual dose.

Like, I've been up all night - I knew I wouldn't be able to sleep - never can when off the booze > 48hrs & working on PC. So, I might take a qtr or half an olanzapine to slow my awesome brain down a tad.

[Eodnhoj7]

I guess this is a good a place as any.

I’ve struggled to find a good argument against suicide that doesn’t involve either nonsense or special pleading to life or hindsight bias.

The way I see it if there is no greater reason to meaning to life then there isn’t really a reason to keep going. Not reason to really struggle and fight for a place in the world. No reason to really pursue anything. One can just end their life and be done with the pursuit and struggle.

To me arguments for staying alive or for meaning only work if you HAVE to live. Filling life with good things, doing what you love, all that junk only has logical weight if one is unable to die until a set time. Baring that I see no reason for living. Desire for pleasures only applies if you are alive, if you die there is no need for any of that. Same with love, friendship, food, money, etc.

End the perception and a new life will occur for how we percieve is how we live. True suicide is not physical death but the death of a mindset. Your desire for self destruction is a calling from the heart for an end to what you see and how you see is what you see. End the mindset, end the perception. That is a true death.

If all is futile then go all the way and observe your mindset as futile as well as there is no point in seeing futility.

[attofishpi]

I guess this is a good a place as any.

I’ve struggled to find a good argument against suicide that doesn’t involve either nonsense or special pleading to life or hindsight bias.

The way I see it if there is no greater reason to meaning to life then there isn’t really a reason to keep going. Not reason to really struggle and fight for a place in the world. No reason to really pursue anything. One can just end their life and be done with the pursuit and struggle.

To me arguments for staying alive or for meaning only work if you HAVE to live. Filling life with good things, doing what you love, all that junk only has logical weight if one is unable to die until a set time. Baring that I see no reason for living. Desire for pleasures only applies if you are alive, if you die there is no need for any of that. Same with love, friendship, food, money, etc.

End the perception and a new life will occur for how we percieve is how we live. True suicide is not physical death but the death of a mindset. Your desire for self destruction is a calling from the heart for an end to what you see and how you see is what you see. End the mindset, end the perception. That is a true death.

If all is futile then go all the way and observe your mindset as futile as well as there is no point in seeing futility.

Ah FFS, u don't think that NOB might still be alive do U?

[Eodnhoj7]

I guess this is a good a place as any.

I’ve struggled to find a good argument against suicide that doesn’t involve either nonsense or special pleading to life or hindsight bias.

The way I see it if there is no greater reason to meaning to life then there isn’t really a reason to keep going. Not reason to really struggle and fight for a place in the world. No reason to really pursue anything. One can just end their life and be done with the pursuit and struggle.

To me arguments for staying alive or for meaning only work if you HAVE to live. Filling life with good things, doing what you love, all that junk only has logical weight if one is unable to die until a set time. Baring that I see no reason for living. Desire for pleasures only applies if you are alive, if you die there is no need for any of that. Same with love, friendship, food, money, etc.

End the perception and a new life will occur for how we percieve is how we live. True suicide is not physical death but the death of a mindset. Your desire for self destruction is a calling from the heart for an end to what you see and how you see is what you see. End the mindset, end the perception. That is a true death.

If all is futile then go all the way and observe your mindset as futile as well as there is no point in seeing futility.

Ah FFS, u don't think that NOB might still be alive do U?

Regardless the case it is general advice. Been there done that.

[Age]

If I were the richest man in the world, I'd probably feel too guilty for being "greedy" to enjoy life. And if I were the poorest man in the world, I'd probably feel too miserable to enjoy life. As it stands, I'm kind of in between rich and poor and feel too mundane and ordinary to enjoy life.

you are 'too miserable' already to enjoy life anyway, right "gary childress"?

[Age]

Well, get used to the idea that you'll live without an ultimate reason, and you'll do things without having to do them in an ultimate sense..

Well that’s not really it.

It’s more like people have reasons, they’re just not ultimate purpose. They do stuff because they want to, no always because they have to.

And to me being motivated by “want to” still eludes me. It seems like a weaker reason than needing to, because if you need to there is no choice whereas with wants you don’t need them.

I don't remember mentioning wants. Yes wants are "weaker" than needs.

I said that if our life is worse than death (and we are sure that this won't change in the future), then suicide is arguably the rational choice.

LOL It is NOT 'the' 'rational choice'. However, it is, obviously, 'a' perceived 'rational choice'.

Human beings want to, and do, "kill themselves" when they see NO 'hope'.

We need life to be better than death, at least on the long run.

you do NOT 'need' life to be better. you, human beings, however, hope and/or wish life is better than what is called 'death'.

Having no ultimate reason for living is really bad, but not bad enough to make life worse than death (for the vast majority).

How could ANY one make some thing so-called 'worse' than something else when the 'something else' is NOT even YET KNOWN by ANY of you, here.

I didn't "want" to be born into this world, I just was.

[Age]

Gazza!! Are you going to answer this extremely important question I am asking..

Annoying would be putting it mildly. I turn into a whimpering idiot. I suffer from paranoid delusions when I'm off my meds.

So you don't gradually reduce them, it's just nope, not taking them now?

Do you answer the extremely important questions asked to you?

[Age]

Gazza!! Are you going to answer this extremely important question I am asking..

Annoying would be putting it mildly. I turn into a whimpering idiot. I suffer from paranoid delusions when I'm off my meds.

So you don't gradually reduce them, it's just nope, not taking them now?

I went off them and stayed off of them for about a year at one point and did fine until I finally ended up in the hospital again.

So, when you say, 'I suffer from paranoid delusions when I'm off my meds', you mean only after about a year, right?

Also, if you keep "telling yourself", 'I suffer from paranoid delusions I am off my medication/s', then by the very nature of 'self-talk' and 'self-belief' you WILL HAVE TO start HAVING 'paranoid delusions', otherwise you were just LYING. And, you do NOT want to LIE TO "yourself", right?

What 'you' are, essentially, doing, here, is CAUSING what is sometimes called a 'self-fulfilling prophecy'.

If, instead of saying, 'I suffer from paranoid delusions', you "TOLD YOURSELF", 'I can go for months, and maybe for years WITHOUT paranoid delusions' when I am off my medication/s', (which you OBVIOUSLY HAVE BEFORE), then you CAN DO IT.

I remember sitting in the emergency room sobbing over something.

Every human being over about the age of a young child has sobbed over some thing.

Later that night I was tossing and turning in the bed, thinking demons and all sorts of things were after me.

In 'what bed'?

At home or in the hospital?

[Age]

There are just REASONS WHY people want to "kill themselves". And, once the fundamental reason was found, then what NEEDS CHANGING became known.

Bang on, as usual. Hire a hitman to do it.

Not really, I was wondering when the insane ones would come out.

There is NO 'case' AGAINST suicide, just like there is NO 'case' FOR suicide. There are just REASONS WHY people want to "kill themselves". And, once the fundamental reason was found, then what NEEDS CHANGING became known.

That is a case for suicide you idiot...

WHAT is, supposedly, 'a case' for suicide.

Do you KNOW the VERY REASON WHY human beings 'WANT TO' "kill themselves"?

if no, then WHY NOT?

[Age]

Well that’s not really it.

It’s more like people have reasons, they’re just not ultimate purpose. They do stuff because they want to, no always because they have to.

And to me being motivated by “want to” still eludes me. It seems like a weaker reason than needing to, because if you need to there is no choice whereas with wants you don’t need them.

I don't remember mentioning wants. Yes wants are "weaker" than needs.

I said that if our life is worse than death (and we are sure that this won't change in the future), then suicide is arguably the rational choice. We need life to be better than death, at least on the long run.

Having no ultimate reason for living is really bad, but not bad enough to make life worse than death (for the vast majority).

I didn't "want" to be born into this world, I just was.

Well the no ultimate reason being bad isn't true from what I hear. Some would say having an ultimate reason for being alive is bad because you don't really get a say in it, you just have to follow it. Reminds me of the Rick and Morty episode "what is my purpose?" "you pass butter".

Maybe no ultimate reason is a good thing now that I think about it. I never realized how stifling that would be

WHEN, and IF, you ALSO LEARN what IS the 'ultimate reason', or the ACTUAL PURPOSE for Life, and for living, then you WILL REALIZE 'following it' is JUST, NATURALLY SIMPLE and EASY, as 'it' is what you NATURALLY Truly WANT, and DESIRE, anyway.

There is CERTAINLY NO FEELING of 'I just have to follow it', AT ALL.