Abstract -Justice -Exists as Real

Should you think about your duty, or about the consequences of your actions? Or should you concentrate on becoming a good person?

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Veritas Aequitas
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Abstract -Justice -Exists as Real

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

Peter Holmes wrote: Sun Sep 01, 2024 1:56 pm 1 A noun is a naming word. We use nouns to name things. For example, the word wisdom is a noun.
2 If the word wisdom names something, then it's not a physical thing, with physical or what could be called spatio-temporal properties. So it must be a non-physical or abstract thing.
3 What is a non-physical or abstract thing, and where and in what way does it exist? If it's an idea or concept in a mind, what and where are ideas, concepts and minds, and in what way do they exist?
4 You say, confidently rehearsing an ancient dogma, that things such as justice and wisdom exist. How and where do they exist?
Here is proof of, whilst Justice is considered an abstract things, it nevertheless does exist as objectively real on an empirical basis.
[the same proof can be extended to other supposed variables of human nature which are deemed to be abstract things].

  • 1. Whatever exists, is real, and objective is contingent upon a framework and system FS e.g. of which the scientific FS is the most credible and objective.

    2. Human nature exists, is real and objective as contingent upon the science-biology-psychology FS.

    3. The justice variable is a significant variable within human nature.

    4. Therefore 'justice' exists as real and objective as contingent upon the science-biology-psychology FS.
Justice [fairness] is even evident [a clue] in the higher animals.
"Two Monkeys Were Paid Unequally"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=meiU6TxysCg
Such sense of justice could have been adapted within the human species.

Whatever is human nature is represented by its physical neural correlates, thus supporting its greater objectivity.

Evidences and justifications for P3 above [assisted by AI];
"P3. The justice variable is a significant variable within human nature."

Empirical Evidences for the existence of Justice as empirically real:
1. Fairness Preferences: Studies on fairness in children show a preference for equitable distribution of resources even at a young age. This suggests an innate sense of fairness. (Ref: https://www.umass.edu/preferen/gintis/H ... ration.pdf)

2. Inequity Aversion: Adults demonstrate negative reactions to unfair treatment, even when it doesn't impact them directly. This suggests a built-in aversion to injustice. (Ref: https://www.umass.edu/preferen/gintis/H ... ration.pdf)

3. Altruistic Punishment: Humans sometimes punish those who violate fairness principles, even at a personal cost. This suggests a desire to uphold a sense of justice beyond self-interest. (Ref: https://roberttrivers.com/Publications_ ... rivers.pdf)

4. Moral Development Theories: Theories like Kohlberg's stages of moral development suggest a natural progression towards understanding and valuing fairness and justice. (Ref: https://www.scribd.com/document/4364868 ... Psychology)

5. Animal Behavior: Studies like the unequal monkey pay example you provided suggest an evolutionary basis for fairness preferences, which may have been further developed in humans. (Note: Animal behavior can only offer hints, and human justice is likely more complex.)

More additional points to support Justice which abstract do exists as empirically real:

Fairness Preferences in Early Development: Studies show even infants exhibit fairness preferences. In one experiment, babies seem to favor puppets who share resources equally. This suggests a potentially innate sense of fairness.

Ultimatum Game Experiments: This economic game tests how people respond to unfair offers. Many humans reject unfair offers, even at a personal cost, demonstrating a sense of justice outweighing pure self-interest.

Punishment Behavior: Humans have a strong tendency to punish those who violate social norms and act unfairly. This behavior, observed across cultures, suggests a motivation to maintain a just system.

Evolutionary Perspective: Cooperation is essential for human survival and reproduction. A sense of justice could have evolved as a mechanism to promote cooperation and fairness within groups.

Here are some additional points to consider:
• Different aspects of justice exist (distributive, procedural, retributive). The evidence may be stronger for some aspects than others.
• Cultural variations in how justice is perceived and implemented exist.
• The link between biological/psychological factors and the concept of justice is complex and requires further research.

Future Directions:
• Neuroscience: Studying brain activity during fairness judgments might offer insights into the biological basis of justice.
• Cross-Cultural Studies: Examining justice perceptions across diverse cultures can refine our understanding of its universality.

The above is strongly supported by points from the Philosophy of Justice.

Discuss??
Views??
Last edited by Veritas Aequitas on Tue Sep 03, 2024 9:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
Veritas Aequitas
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Re: Abstract -Justice -Exists as Real

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

Notes:
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FlashDangerpants
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Re: Abstract -Justice -Exists as Real

Post by FlashDangerpants »

That's some pretty heinous reification goiong on there. You need to learn to distinguish between saying that we are justified in having a discourse of some sort (say for instance that talk of universal sense of fairness among social animals is justified by observation of dogs and octopuses) and actual Platonist assertions that anything for which discourses can be justified must therefore exist.

I rate that argument 3/10, which makes it one of VA's best efforts to date. But it does nothing to actually argue agains the text quoted from Pete.
Atla
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Re: Abstract -Justice -Exists as Real

Post by Atla »

FlashDangerpants wrote: Tue Sep 03, 2024 2:33 pm I rate that argument 3/10, which makes it one of VA's best efforts to date. But it does nothing to actually argue agains the text quoted from Pete.
Hmm let's ask the AI
Atla the KG wrote:On a scale of 1 to 10 from least convincing argument to most convincing argument, our firend's arguments usually score 2s, but today he scored a 3. Is that cause for celebration?
God wrote:If your friend's arguments usually score a 2 on a scale of 1 to 10, and today they scored a 3, it's a small improvement but not a dramatic one. While it's not necessarily cause for a big celebration, it does show progress! You could view it as a positive step forward and perhaps offer some encouragement. Celebrating small victories can be motivating, but you might want to save the big celebrations for a more significant leap in their argumentation skills.

So, maybe not a full-blown party, but a friendly "Well done!" could be in order. 😊
Well done!
Peter Holmes
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Re: Abstract -Justice -Exists as Real

Post by Peter Holmes »

Veritas Aequitas wrote: Tue Sep 03, 2024 9:48 am
1. Whatever exists, is real, and objective is contingent upon a framework and system FS e.g. of which the scientific FS is the most credible and objective.

2. Human nature exists, is real and objective as contingent upon the science-biology-psychology FS.

3. The justice variable is a significant variable within human nature.

4. Therefore 'justice' exists as real and objective as contingent upon the science-biology-psychology FS.
P1 Human nature exists.
P2 Justice is part of human nature.
C Therefore, justice exists.

Imho, that's 0/10.
Iwannaplato
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Abstract - Dishonest - Exists as Real

Post by Iwannaplato »

Abstract - Deception - Exists as Real and Is a Moral Good
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Tue Sep 03, 2024 9:48 am
  • 1. Whatever exists, is real, and objective is contingent upon a framework and system FS e.g. of which the scientific FS is the most credible and objective.

    2. Human nature exists, is real and objective as contingent upon the science-biology-psychology FS.

    3. The urge/behavior to deceive/lie/dissemble/hideacts is a significant variable within human nature.

    4. Therefore 'not being honest' exists as real and objective as contingent upon the science-biology-psychology FS.
Not only higher but also lower animals (never like those adjectives) engage in deception/prevarication/dissembling/hiding of their actsfrom members of their own species. Note that deception exists in many species not just to prevent predation or interspecies, but also intraspecies.

"Deception in animals" on Wikipedia
Link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deception_in_animals

"Intentional Deception" by the Center for Academic Research and Training in Anthropogeny (CARTA)
Link: https://carta.anthropogeny.org/moca/top ... -deception

"How Animals Cheat" by BBC Earth
Link: https://www.bbcearth.com/blog/?article= ... mals-cheat

"Animal Deception" by Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy
Link: https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/deception/

"Deceptive Behavior in Animals: Definition, Types & Examples" by Study.com
Link: https://study.com/academy/lesson/decept ... mples.html

Homo sapien children start lying/deceiving at about age two and get better at it as their Theory of Mind improves.

This means that deception/dissembling/hiding acts/lying is not only objective, but objectively good.
Last edited by Iwannaplato on Tue Sep 03, 2024 9:52 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Iwannaplato
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Abstract - Dishonest - Exists as Real

Post by Iwannaplato »

Regarding: Abstract - Dishonest - Exists as Real

Notes:

KIV
Veritas Aequitas
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Re: Abstract -Justice -Exists as Real

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

Peter Holmes wrote: Tue Sep 03, 2024 7:36 pm
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Tue Sep 03, 2024 9:48 am
1. Whatever exists, is real, and objective is contingent upon a framework and system FS e.g. of which the scientific FS is the most credible and objective.

2. Human nature exists, is real and objective as contingent upon the science-biology-psychology FS.

3. The justice variable is a significant variable within human nature.

4. Therefore 'justice' exists as real and objective as contingent upon the science-biology-psychology FS.
P1 Human nature exists.
P2 Justice is part of human nature.
C Therefore, justice exists.

Imho, that's 0/10.
Your strawmaning is so glaring.

Note your
P1 Human nature exists.
in contrast to my
2. Human nature exists, is real and objective as contingent upon the science-biology-psychology FS.
Atla
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Re: Abstract -Justice -Exists as Real

Post by Atla »

1. Human nature is contingent upon the science-biology-psychology FSK.
2. The science-biology-psychology FSK is contingent upon human nature.

:idea:
Veritas Aequitas
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Re: Abstract - Dishonest - Exists as Real

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

Iwannaplato wrote: Tue Sep 03, 2024 9:27 pm Abstract - Deception - Exists as Real and Is a Moral Good
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Tue Sep 03, 2024 9:48 am
  • 1. Whatever exists, is real, and objective is contingent upon a framework and system FS e.g. of which the scientific FS is the most credible and objective.

    2. Human nature exists, is real and objective as contingent upon the science-biology-psychology FS.

    3. The urge/behavior to deceive/lie/dissemble/hideacts is a significant variable within human nature.

    4. Therefore 'not being honest' exists as real and objective as contingent upon the science-biology-psychology FS.
Not only higher but also lower animals (never like those adjectives) engage in deception/prevarication/dissembling/hiding of their actsfrom members of their own species. Note that deception exists in many species not just to prevent predation or interspecies, but also intraspecies.

"Deception in animals" on Wikipedia
Link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deception_in_animals

"Intentional Deception" by the Center for Academic Research and Training in Anthropogeny (CARTA)
Link: https://carta.anthropogeny.org/moca/top ... -deception

"How Animals Cheat" by BBC Earth
Link: https://www.bbcearth.com/blog/?article= ... mals-cheat

"Animal Deception" by Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy
Link: https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/deception/

"Deceptive Behavior in Animals: Definition, Types & Examples" by Study.com
Link: https://study.com/academy/lesson/decept ... mples.html

Homo sapien children start lying/deceiving at about age two and get better at it as their Theory of Mind improves.

This means that deception/dissembling/hiding acts/lying is not only objective, but objectively good.
You idiot and moron [tit for tat] the OP did not make reference specifically to morality per se [or objectively good].

I used to term 'Justice' following PH's Challenge.
It is just as applicable to 'evilness' which is also a part of nature and any other fundamental abstract elements of human nature. [PH also mentioned 'wisdom'].
PH wrote:4 You say, confidently rehearsing an ancient dogma, that things such as justice and wisdom exist. How and where do they exist?
The OP argument is extendable to support my thesis, that morality which is also a part of human nature either in abstract or physical terms do exist as real as qualified to the moral FS.
Iwannaplato
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Re: Abstract - Dishonest - Exists as Real

Post by Iwannaplato »

Veritas Aequitas wrote: Wed Sep 04, 2024 5:07 am You idiot and moron [tit for tat] the OP did not make reference specifically to morality per se [or objectively good].
Something that might be useful for you to understand is that people here are aware of ideas you have suggested elsewhere and they look at your ideas in the context of what you have written IN GENERAL. In other places you have made arguments that the existence of patterns in humans - for example via mirror neurons <-------> empathy, we can draw conclusions about objective morality.

So, I combined the approach you took here, focused it on a pattern often considered negative, and combined it with your assertions from elsewhere.

You called me an idiot and a moron [tit for tat] you say, which was ridiculous both morally and on an intellectual level. I did something quite natural in philosophical contexts which is to see what the various assertions and arguments 1 person puts forward do in interaction with each other. And while yes, there was an element of parody, given that I copied your format, to some degree, at no point did I call you an idiot. So, your Old Testement moral tit for tatting was unjustified.
I used to term 'Justice' following PH's Challenge.
It is just as applicable to 'evilness' which is also a part of nature and any other fundamental abstract elements of human nature. [PH also mentioned 'wisdom'].
Precisely. I used this argument to show that just because a pattern exists in human nature or brains or whatever, it does not confer objective status to it as morality.
The OP argument is extendable to support my thesis, that morality which is also a part of human nature either in abstract or physical terms do exist as real as qualified to the moral FS.
I don't know or at this moment care about PH's full position. I myself have no doubt that morality exists, in the sense that humans evaluate actions as moral or not moral. They also codify moralities, in various ways. It is an abstract and useful term to refer to patterns in humans. On the other hand just because humans do something does not mean that it is objectively moral, even if the pattern is nearly universal. My post, while humorous, was serious, and I really can't believe you didn't recognise the step I added to it so that it connected with arguments you have made thousands of times, in post after post.

For someone radically concerned with morality, I think your behavior was poor here, but more importantly, intellectually lost. In fact, oddly, you seem outraged that I took a step, in relation to deception, that you have taken again and again to determine objective moralities. I think the nominalist/antinominalist context here leads to a very efficient opportunity to point out the lack of parsimony is your conclusions about 'oughtnesses' for example. Also the repeated cherry picking in what you focus on.

The existence of deception, nearly universally in humans and then in many other species, does not entail it is an oughtness, this non-parsimoniously applied noun you have created to justify your objective moral stance.
Last edited by Iwannaplato on Wed Sep 04, 2024 8:40 am, edited 2 times in total.
Iwannaplato
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Re: Abstract -Justice -Exists as Real

Post by Iwannaplato »

Atla wrote: Wed Sep 04, 2024 5:04 am 1. Human nature is contingent upon the science-biology-psychology FSK.
2. The science-biology-psychology FSK is contingent upon human nature.

:idea:
This made me think about the nature of the FSK. Many anti-realism hinge the existence of things to perception, either that perception elicits or includes 'things'. But here 'things' and not conditioned on perception (or experiencing) but rather are contingent on a framework and system of knowledge. Is that books, thoughts......?

He often says that the most accurate FSK is the science FSK. But accurate regarding what and for whom? Presumable animals have some kind of tacit/implicit/instinctive FSKs or one mix FSK. If they don't have FSKs, man they manage to navigate reality extremely effectively. But let's be generous and say that they have unconscious (mostly) FSKs. These are extremely effective.

and then as always, what is the FSK that determines that the Science FSK is the best FSK and why isn't that FSK the best if it can rank the others?
Peter Holmes
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Re: Abstract -Justice -Exists as Real

Post by Peter Holmes »

Veritas Aequitas wrote: Wed Sep 04, 2024 4:53 am
Peter Holmes wrote: Tue Sep 03, 2024 7:36 pm
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Tue Sep 03, 2024 9:48 am
1. Whatever exists, is real, and objective is contingent upon a framework and system FS e.g. of which the scientific FS is the most credible and objective.

2. Human nature exists, is real and objective as contingent upon the science-biology-psychology FS.

3. The justice variable is a significant variable within human nature.

4. Therefore 'justice' exists as real and objective as contingent upon the science-biology-psychology FS.
P1 Human nature exists.
P2 Justice is part of human nature.
C Therefore, justice exists.

Imho, that's 0/10.
Your strawmaning is so glaring.

Note your
P1 Human nature exists.
in contrast to my
2. Human nature exists, is real and objective as contingent upon the science-biology-psychology FS.
I stand corrected. Here's your argument.

P1 Human nature exists, is real and objective as contingent upon the science-biology-psychology FS.
P2 Justice is part of human nature.
C Therefore, justice exists, is real and objective as contingent upon the science-biology-psychology FS.

What a load of utter tripe!
Veritas Aequitas
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Re: Abstract -Justice -Exists as Real

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

Peter Holmes wrote: Wed Sep 04, 2024 8:57 am
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Wed Sep 04, 2024 4:53 am
Peter Holmes wrote: Tue Sep 03, 2024 7:36 pm
P1 Human nature exists.
P2 Justice is part of human nature.
C Therefore, justice exists.

Imho, that's 0/10.
Your strawmaning is so glaring.

Note your
P1 Human nature exists.
in contrast to my
2. Human nature exists, is real and objective as contingent upon the science-biology-psychology FS.
I stand corrected. Here's your argument.

P1 Human nature exists, is real and objective as contingent upon the science-biology-psychology FS.
P2 Justice is part of human nature.
C Therefore, justice exists, is real and objective as contingent upon the science-biology-psychology FS.

What a load of utter tripe!
You are merely exposing your ignorance, shallow and narrow thinking.

You provided no counter to the scenario I presented.
viewtopic.php?p=728310#p728310
Seemingly you are either ignorant or enjoy being treated unfairly since the term 'justice' and 'fairness' are not within your vocabulary.
Walker
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Re: Abstract -Justice -Exists as Real

Post by Walker »

Veritas Aequitas wrote: Tue Sep 03, 2024 9:48 am Discuss??
Views??
Justice is a thought and thoughts are real. Thoughts are of a corporeal nature in the sense that they exist physically, but not physically like a chunk of wood or a rock. They are a more subtle form of physicality, like the wind is physical but more subtle than a rock. This relates to the conclusion here, it’s an important premise to make the point, a premise being one of two starting points to make a point, and knowledge being the other.

The physicality of thought is simple to experience and everyone does, although because of assumptions about the nature of the world, not everyone notices the subtlety of the experience concerning the thought, where thoughts come from, and where thoughts go.

Thoughts have various sources, such as in a chain of one thought beginning with a memory and connecting to present experience. Or, a thought can begin as a rationale. The source to consider for the point of the conclusion of this is, a thought can have an external origin.

The simplest way to consider this is through the experience of an outside thought. An outside thought is one that is not of your own making. It comes from out of the blue, so to speak. Out of thin air. This thought is a transmission from an outside source, not through any of the five senses, but through the sixth sense, which is the mind sense. The mind senses the world without the other five senses, and the beginning of this is picking up thoughts that originate outside of the skin.

Conclusion of the previous proof, based on the evidence of knowledge: Just as thoughts external to the skin can be perceived with the mind sense, many minds transmitting the same thought are a strong transmission that can be perceived in a gross, meaning unsubtle, way.

Everyone experiences this, although everyone does not parse the phenomenon according to an organized, rational framework or commonly experienced FSK, because a lot of what is going on is connected to what is personally emotional rather than concepts.

Therefore, a commonly held physical thought by a society, such as the physical principle of justice made simple by the first experience of injustice as a child (hey, that kid took my toy!) is a physical thing that requires a most subtle instrument to detect, and that subtle instrument is the brain-mind connection.

When an entire society carries the same physical concept of justice, that is a powerful transmission that any mind sense can detect, and if ignored then it is ignored with knowledge that injustice is being done, which is also a physical thought.

I have heard that Elon Musk created a physical apparatus, a machine-mind connection, that can transfer physical thoughts to a computer screen, without voice or fingers, which is akin to the point, which is continuous transmission and reception of the physical thought of justice.
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