Was Hitler as bad as some make him out to be?

[Will Bouwman]

If there is a God, it would be nice if the world were a little safer a place and more of us could feel like there is a future for life on Earth.

If there is a God, which given a loose enough definition I reckon is about 50/50, if it is the one described in the Bible, then the future for Earth is bleak - Armageddon is coming. Fortunately, the likelihood of bronze and iron age mythology being 'THE TROOF', is vanishingly small.

[Immanuel Can]

It's a shame you don't really believe in man made climate change; otherwise you could blame that on Marx, as well.

Ummm...no, that's not sensible. Marx didn't talk about climate at all, so far as I've ever been able to find. But he sure did talk about revolution, violence, and the demonization of the opposition. And like Hegel, he regarded "History" (his version of it) as a wasteful process, in which the loss of lives was not to be lamented. His ideas were what influenced modern Socialists to kill well over 140 million people...because the 140 million are only the ones we can know for sure...and you know there had to be more, then.

So Marx is #1: the most evil man in human history...so far.

Just to split hairs, Chomsky...

What's he got to do with it?

[Immanuel Can]

From what I've read, the world is on the verge of ecological and perhaps militarist disaster. It kind of freaks some of us out sometimes. If there is a God, it would be nice if the world were a little safer a place and more of us could feel like there is a future for life on Earth.

He says there is. But there's none without Him.

[Gary Childress]

Ummm...no, that's not sensible. Marx didn't talk about climate at all, so far as I've ever been able to find. But he sure did talk about revolution, violence, and the demonization of the opposition. And like Hegel, he regarded "History" (his version of it) as a wasteful process, in which the loss of lives was not to be lamented. His ideas were what influenced modern Socialists to kill well over 140 million people...because the 140 million are only the ones we can know for sure...and you know there had to be more, then.

So Marx is #1: the most evil man in human history...so far.

Just to split hairs, Chomsky...

What's he got to do with it?

That's for me to know and for you not to, obviously.

[Gary Childress]

From what I've read, the world is on the verge of ecological and perhaps militarist disaster. It kind of freaks some of us out sometimes. If there is a God, it would be nice if the world were a little safer a place and more of us could feel like there is a future for life on Earth.

He says there is. But there's none without Him.

Well, according to the Bible there's Armageddon to look forward to. What joy!!

[Immanuel Can]

Just to split hairs, Chomsky...

What's he got to do with it?

That's for me to know and for you not to, obviously.

Yes, right.

[Immanuel Can]

From what I've read, the world is on the verge of ecological and perhaps militarist disaster. It kind of freaks some of us out sometimes. If there is a God, it would be nice if the world were a little safer a place and more of us could feel like there is a future for life on Earth.

He says there is. But there's none without Him.

Well, according to the Bible there's Armageddon to look forward to. What joy!!

Well, that's what you choose, if that's what you choose.

[Harbal]

From what I've read, the world is on the verge of ecological and perhaps militarist disaster. It kind of freaks some of us out sometimes. If there is a God, it would be nice if the world were a little safer a place and more of us could feel like there is a future for life on Earth.

He says there is. But there's none without Him.

Well, according to the Bible there's Armageddon to look forward to. What joy!!

You might also want to pencil the Rapture in, although that is still to be confirmed.

[Alexiev]

Except that God is the origin point of good and of justice, and the people He judged were exceedingly wicked, as Genesis records. So they, like everybody else, chose their paths. And He, as a righteous God, does not turn a blind eye to the evil that men choose.

That's the irony of the Atheist: he claims God is bad for not judging evil, and for allowing men to do what they do, then he complains that God is bad if He does judge men for the abuses they make of their freedom.

Perhaps they should pick a story and stick to it.

Maybe Marists think Marxism is the origin of good and evil; the good of the state is the ultimate good. Their persecution of "counter-revoluionaries" is similar to Christian persecution of witches and heretics. The motive-- enhancing the greater good-- is identical.

I'm an atheist (for all practical purposes, although technically agnostic). I don't whine about God massacring people. From a divine persective, maybe He was doing all those first born Egyptians a good turn. Neither do I blame Him for the Inquisition or witch killings. I'm merely pointing out that blaming Marx for communist persecution of counter-revolutionaries is almost as misguided as blaming God for the Inquisition.

By the way, Hitler was worse than the commies because he didn't even bother with trials or excuses. The numbers are staggering in both cases, but slaughtering innocent children because they were Jews or Gypsies is not identically evil to killing counter-revoluionaries (or witches, for that matter, who you may believe are eating babies, fornicating with devils, and subverting the common good). The evil of the Holocaust is fueled by pure hatred and bigotry; that of the communists and witch-burners by a desire to protect the common good by punishing those who threaten it, and deserve punishment.

[Alexis Jacobi]

Well, that's what you choose, if that's what you choose.

What do you mean by this? That we choose Armageddon? Isn’t it prophetically fated?

[Alexis Jacobi]

I'm merely pointing out that blaming Marx for communist persecution of counter-revolutionaries is almost as misguided as blaming God for the Inquisition.

Marxist-Leninist writings are quite specific in their intentions. Communist persecution flows from Marxist-Leninist doctrines (and specific statements that are unambiguous).

What to say about the Christian-Catholic Inquisition is something else.

[Alexiev]

I'm merely pointing out that blaming Marx for communist persecution of counter-revolutionaries is almost as misguided as blaming God for the Inquisition.

Marxist-Leninist writings are quite specific in their intentions. Communist persecution flows from Marxist-Leninist doctrines (and specific statements that are unambiguous).

What to say about the Christian-Catholic Inquisition is something else.

As far as I know, Marx and Lenin never collaborated on any literature. The Bible does enjoin believers never to suffer a witch to live, but I don't blame God for witch killings.

My point was that we ought not blame Marx for all the evils of Marxism or, perhaps. "Marxist-Leninist doctrines".

[Walker]

Maybe Marists think Marxism is the origin of good and evil; the good of the state is the ultimate good. Their persecution of "counter-revoluionaries" is similar to Christian persecution of witches and heretics. The motive-- enhancing the greater good-- is identical.

The US Constitution unleashes human potential, thus corruption of the constitution corrupts what unleashes human potential.

On the other hand, Marxism does not unleash human potential, thus corrupting Marxism does follow natural inclinations rather than a fantasy, which is why black markets often thrive with a wink and nod and a bribe.

The nature of the universe is dog eat dog. Life must consume life in order to live. Capitalism is a civilized system that dovetails nicely with this nature of the universe, where dog eat dog does occur.

A social system of governance that harnesses this natural energy and invites social harmony, such as the US Constitution, allows society to thrive in a way that's not ideologically driven by a theory some egghead pulled out of his a** that's at odds with human nature.

Communism and socialism falsely promise to end dog eat dog. They promise that the state will protect the people from the predatory nature of the universe, under the pretext that in a predatory universe the state will not want to eat its citizens. That’s the basic selling point.

This socialist fantasy doesn’t work because like adults, even little toddlers have an inherent sense of fairness. Just imagine you’re a little tyke and for your birthday you get a present that you cherish, and right away you’re taught that you have to share it with the other children at the party, so you get to watch while they play with your new toy and bang it around. Furthermore, you’re told that doing this is virtue, and your virtuous action will make the enforcer happy.

That naturally goes against the grain and begins to warp perception of reality in the little one. No wonder later in life the propagandists can rightly expect that the doublethink necessary to buy into socialism and communism will actually cause people to accept what they’re told, even when they see that what they’re told is wrong.

If the child ever completely understands the nature of clinging to possessions, it will happen as a realization after tasting life and its pleasures rather than going against the grain and putting on the harness to work hard for the brat next door, who breaks your kid’s toys.

However, and this is interesting, I've seen toddlers naturally share without being prompted, and they grow up to be gentle people while society that naturally follows the constitution protects them from being eaten.

[Alexis Jacobi]

My point was that we ought not blame Marx for all the evils of Marxism or, perhaps. "Marxist-Leninist doctrines".

Yes, I understand, but in your case you are guessing because (I assume) you have no familiarity with texts. I might not have time today but I will try to dig some out.

[Alexis Jacobi]

Hitler loved his dogs. And was a dog person. As far as I know not a cat person. While not that important of issues, still it could have some bearing on the present discussion.