WOKE and proud of it....

[Immanuel Can]

Well, sorry to say, but that's what you get for trusting Wikipedia -- a half truth, combined with a misleading claim.

I have been taught well about the pitfalls of trusting any single source.

You're quite right of course; sometimes Wikipedia can be unreliable, and not only when you happen to disagree with it...I must say though, the author seems like a diligent fellow; there are 94 references. Do you know that's nearly a hundred?

Not so shocking. How many of those references provide substantiation that Cultural Marxism is a "conspiracy theory"? I'll warrant you it's probably not even one.

The thing with conspiracy theories is that if the central premise is something you agree with, the rationalisation, no matter how absurd, will strike you as entirely plausible.

Well, "conspiracy theories" are warranted when there's been a conspiracy. For years, the Kennedy assassination was roundly dismissed as a "conspiracy theory." But that "theory" fired multiple shots into a sitting president and blew his head off, then covered the perps for decades. No small achievement for a "conspiracy theory," really. And nowadays, what was once condemned as a "conspiracy theory" has become mainstream history.

Interesting how calling something a "conspiracy theory" doesn't make it one.

But the better thing to do is to check. The easiest way might be to read Lindsay's book, Race Marxism, or at least listen to some of his podcasts on it.

...by reading lots of things by people who say exactly what you want to hear,

Mistake.

This is the problem with assuming.

My interest in this topic began by reading and researching. I came to Lindsay after a lot of other reading, much of it on "the other side," so to speak. I had no "exactly what I wanted to hear." I didn't know anything about the subject before I began. But what Lindsay says, I have confirmed for myself, by extensive reading of the Neo-Marxists themselves, as well as Marx and Hegel. So you really got that one wrong, I have to point out. Be careful of your own "confirmation bias," perhaps. What you expect may not at all be the case.

He reads from the original documents in those, commenting as he goes. And in the book, he doesn't just make unsubstantiated claims like wikis sometimes do...he actually does the documentation for you. And it's all there. You won't be left in doubt.

I'm sure James Lindsey does his research but, and I think I might have mentioned this, it is entirely possible for different people to interpret exactly the same research in surprisingly different ways.

Find out. See how you can "interpret his research."

I can see you're starting to be a bit glib. But glibness isn't superiority of knowledge; it's just glibness. And it's all too easy. It's certainly much easier than knowing about the research. If your interest in this topic is genuine, Will, then you owe yourself to do the reading. If you don't, then don't be too surprised if what you're assuming doesn't turn out to be true at all.

[Consul]

In my understanding, the term "the Woke Left" is most appropriately used to refer to the successor of the New Left of the 1960s/70s = the post-70s Academic Cultural Left (ACL).

I think the term is actually much looser than that. Today, it's used to describe everything from the almost-completely-ignorant footsoldier of Marxism, to the preening pseudo-academics of Humanities and Education faculties, to the elitist political theorists who actually know they're Marxists and know why they're using Marxism. That's one huge range: and most of it is composed of the first class, a bit of the second, and very little of the third. But it's not as specific as you suggest, I would say. It's a sliding scale, and people are found everywhere along it.

If the term "the Woke Left" is used so generally and vaguely that it becomes synonymous with "the Left" or "the Socialist Left", it thereby becomes quite useless; so its reference needs to be narrowed down both historically and ideologically.

[Immanuel Can]

If the term "the Woke Left" is used so generally and vaguely that it becomes synonymous with "the Left" or "the Socialist Left", it thereby becomes quite useless; so its reference needs to be narrowed down both historically and ideologically.

No, I think it's a good umbrella-term. That "umbrella" covers three groups: 1. The informed theorists of the movement, 2. The half-informed leaders and advocates of the popular "actions," and 3. the ignorant masses manipulated by the former two. And the reason is that because the level 1ers are in charge of the whole bunch, they're all moving in the same direction, whether they know it or not. The level 2ers are being "handled," and the level 3ers are pawns and dupes. It's the level 1ers that are in control of the program, ultimately.

So the subcategories "narrow down" the definition, and the main category catches the key commonality between them. That's really quite a precise way of viewing the situation.

[Alexiev]

Race Marxism Is a Very Strange, Very Bad Book
https://jacobin.com/2022/03/james-linds ... liberalism

The ignorant masses being manipulated populate the right more than the left.

[Immanuel Can]

Race Marxism Is a Very Strange, Very Bad Book

Instead of trying to dismiss it, try reading it.

Knowledge is so much better than ignorance.

[Gary Childress]

Race Marxism Is a Very Strange, Very Bad Book

Instead of trying to dismiss it, try reading it.

Knowledge is so much better than ignorance.

Says Mr. Pot to Mr. Kettle.

[Gary Childress]

Considering that Marx wrote almost nothing specifically advocating for gays, and transgender people (he generally referred to them as part of the "lumpenproletariat" and thought they were generally not useful to the "Revolution"), how is it figured that so called "Woke" culture is "Cultural Marxism". What is Lindsay's argument that ties "Marxism" to the current counter-culture? Does Linsday have an argument, or does he just make an unsubstantiated claim?

[Immanuel Can]

Considering that Marx wrote almost nothing specifically advocating for gays, and transgender people (he generally referred to them as part of the "lumpenproletariat" and thought they were generally not useful to the "Revolution"), how is it figured that so called "Woke" culture is "Cultural Marxism". What is Lindsay's argument that ties "Marxism" to the current counter-culture? Does Linsday have an argument, or does he just make an unsubstantiated claim?

Good heavens, Gary...do you listen to nothing?

Marx was a pseudo-economic theorist. He did not use culture as his orientation point. Theology, yes; culture, no. And he knew nothing about transers: they didn't exist in his day. There were only a vanishingly small set of body-dysmorphic males, and none of them had any chemicals or surgeries. I know of nothing he wrote about gays. I don't think he gave them any thought.

It was Marx's followers, the Neo-Marxists, who converted his allegedly-economic theory to use culture instead. Nobody ever said otherwise. And the history bears that out. Go and read Marcuse, Gramsci, Lukacs, Foucault, Freire and that whole bunch, if you want to know about what Marx's admirers did with Marx after his death. It's all there. It's not a secret, or a "conspiracy theory," or even in any doubt: these jokers spelled out exactly what they were going to do with Marxism, and why, and how they were still hoping to get their "revolution."

Or more simply, go and read Lindsay. Or listen to his podcasts, if you prefer that. Then you won't make such obvious mistakes, and won't have to ask me to regurgitate what Lindsay himself has already so cogently argued.

[Sculptor]

At the current time, woke is a rallying cry for the MAGA crowd. It has lost it's original meaning, from a practical standpoint.

Oh?? Have I missed something?
What do you mean?

[Sculptor]

Considering that Marx wrote almost nothing specifically advocating for gays, and transgender people (he generally referred to them as part of the "lumpenproletariat" and thought they were generally not useful to the "Revolution"), how is it figured that so called "Woke" culture is "Cultural Marxism". What is Lindsay's argument that ties "Marxism" to the current counter-culture? Does Linsday have an argument, or does he just make an unsubstantiated claim?

Good heavens, Gary...do you listen to nothing?

Marx was a pseudo-economic theorist.

Marx is the father of modern economic theory, citing by all leading economists of the 20thCentury from Keys, to Galbraith, to Friedman.

[Sculptor]

And the history bears that out. Go and read Marcuse, Gramsci, Lukacs, Foucault, Freire and that whole bunch, if you want to know about what Marx's admirers did with Marx after his death.

This is just moronic rightwing spin.

[Sculptor]

Considering that Marx wrote almost nothing specifically advocating for gays, and transgender people (he generally referred to them as part of the "lumpenproletariat" and thought they were generally not useful to the "Revolution"), how is it figured that so called "Woke" culture is "Cultural Marxism". What is Lindsay's argument that ties "Marxism" to the current counter-culture? Does Linsday have an argument, or does he just make an unsubstantiated claim?

Cultural Marxism is a phrase used mostly by right wing reactionaries hoping to fend off some of the most interesting and thought provoking philosphies of the 20thC.
These philosophies which would free the mind from the mental slavery and racism of the established view point. Which allow a space for women, gays, minorities and working people.
But when you look at the hideous dead-minded moralists, who would have us chained to one religion controling birth, sex and death.

But since the phrase seems to stick; I'll embrace it. Woke and proud cultural marxist and proud.
Because my idea of hell is getting stuck in a lift with Immanuel C*nt

[Immanuel Can]

Considering that Marx wrote almost nothing specifically advocating for gays, and transgender people (he generally referred to them as part of the "lumpenproletariat" and thought they were generally not useful to the "Revolution"), how is it figured that so called "Woke" culture is "Cultural Marxism". What is Lindsay's argument that ties "Marxism" to the current counter-culture? Does Linsday have an argument, or does he just make an unsubstantiated claim?

Good heavens, Gary...do you listen to nothing?

Marx was a pseudo-economic theorist.

Marx is the father of modern economic theory,...

Marx was a horrendous fraud, whose theories have been dead wrong every time, and who has precipitated far more deaths than any human being in history by his irresponsible nonsense. Even his current admirers call his theory "crude Marxism," and claim to have surpassed it. Not hard to do, since it's simply the most disastrous theory in history.

[Immanuel Can]

Cultural Marxism is a phrase used mostly by right wing reactionaries

"Reactionaries." A totally Marxist way of talking.

Well, Cultural Marxists themselves use the term, so you're just wrong again. https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10 ... 21.1926982

These philosophies which would free the mind from the mental slavery and racism of the established view point.

Actually, they're racist theories. They're obsessed with race, as a matter of fact. Nobody else cares, or should care about it. But they can't stop whining.

[accelafine]

Considering that Marx wrote almost nothing specifically advocating for gays, and transgender people (he generally referred to them as part of the "lumpenproletariat" and thought they were generally not useful to the "Revolution"), how is it figured that so called "Woke" culture is "Cultural Marxism". What is Lindsay's argument that ties "Marxism" to the current counter-culture? Does Linsday have an argument, or does he just make an unsubstantiated claim?

Cultural Marxism is a phrase used mostly by right wing reactionaries hoping to fend off some of the most interesting and thought provoking philosphies of the 20thC.
These philosophies which would free the mind from the mental slavery and racism of the established view point. Which allow a space for women, gays, minorities and working people.
But when you look at the hideous dead-minded moralists, who would have us chained to one religion controling birth, sex and death.

But since the phrase seems to stick; I'll embrace it. Woke and proud cultural marxist and proud.
Because my idea of hell is getting stuck in a lift with Immanuel C*nt

He's an anti-choice religious maniac yet he still manages to have more intelligence in his little toenail than you have in that smooth, shrunken grey blob in your skull.