WOKE and proud of it....

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Consul
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Re: WOKE and proud of it....

Post by Consul »

Peter Kropotkin wrote: Mon May 27, 2024 6:00 pm WOKE: The meaning of WOKE is aware of and actively attentive
to important societal facts and issues....
(especially issues of racial or social justice)
If being woke simply means having a political consciousness regarding matters of (in)justice, (in)equality, discrimination, domination, and oppression, then all Lefties (including social liberals and social democrats) are Wokies. And there are also Righties who do care about those things, including social justice. Actually, the very term "social justice" was introduced in the 19th century by Catholic conservatives.
"The term social justice as such makes its first appearance in Europe in the writings of a Jesuit advisor to the Vatican, Luigi Taparelli d’Azeglio, writing in the context of the Italian risorgimento in 1840, a political movement which, while promoting the unification of Italy, posed severe challenges to the existing social and political order, including the Catholic Church (Burke, 2011). For Taparelli, the term giustizia sociale signified an attempt to justify the established social stratification (which was highly unequal and based on special privileges of aristocracy and church) while giving credence to “modern” principles of individual responsibility and, in that sense, of autonomy. In opposing the liberalism and the associated demands for equality promoted by the American Revolution in the tradition of Locke (1960), Taparelli emphasized instead the legitimacy of differences as “natural facts” which the principles of social justice have to respect and protect rather than eliminate. “All individual human beings are naturally unequal among themselves in everything that pertains to their individuality, just as they are naturally equal in all that pertains to the species” (Taparelli d’Azeglio,1845, par. 355, quoted in Burke, 2011, p. 37).

In the sophisticated manner of Jesuit argumentation, Taparelli captured the spirit of the revolutionary times with the term “social justice,” only to give it a conservative, order-preserving interpretation. According to this interpretation, social differences can be legitimated and guarded against being perceived as inequalities and injustices when they can be grounded in the factual, “essential” constitution of these differences. In addition, possible weaknesses arising from these differences in natural constitution need to be protected by the interventions of a benevolent “bigger unit.” This idea constituted the core of the principle of “subsidiarity” which assumed a central role not only in Catholic social teaching but also in the social policies of corporatist states such as Bismarckian Germany (Hennock, 2007).

Taparelli distinguished the role of smaller social units, such as the family, from that of bigger ones such as the state to give the smaller ones absolute priority over the latter but obliging the latter to support the smaller ones if their own capacity to resolve problems did not suffice. In this form the principle of subsidiarity as the realization of social justice entered directly into the social teaching of the Catholic Church, initially in the form of the Encyclical Rerum Novarum of 1891 (Leo XIII, 1981) in which Pope Leo XIII, a former student of Taparelli,[17]defined the Church’s social commitment as being both a fight against Communism with its pursuit of equality and its reliance on collective action, and against excessive liberalism which left the individual abandoned by the collective and created scandalous social differences and injustices. In this line of development social justice became a virtue, a striving at all levels of society for the just distribution of personal freedom combined with responsibility and for public support consistent with the principle of justice when individual commitments proved insufficient.

This theme was taken up in the Encyclical Quadragesomo Anno by Pope Pius XI (1931), celebrating the effects and reaffirming the principles of Catholic social teaching at the height of the Great Depression and at the historical start of the confrontation between Communism and Fascism in Europe. The Pope reminds governments of their role in bringing moral order to a society by protecting the weak and warding off Communism. The Encyclical consolidated the Catholic Church’s understanding of social justice. Another Jesuit, Oswald von Nell-Breuning, had worked on its draft. He later became a leading figure in shaping Germany’s post-World War II social policies, which strongly reaffirmed the principle of subsidiarity, which had been a central feature of Bismarck’s first social legislation after the founding of the Second German Reich in 1871 (Krier Mich, 1998; Novak, 2000). West-Germany’s post-war social politics emphasized the freedom of individuals not in an absolute sense but in the form of their being embedded in organisms of civil society which, in that country’s strong anti-fascist and anti-communist orientation, had to form a safeguard against the powers of the state becoming too domineering (Huber & Stephens, 2001).

Social justice, in this typically conservative version, consists therefore, of ensuring everybody’s (different) place in society in such a way that society could become an organic whole where all the different members worked together harmoniously (the organism metaphor also appears in Catholic social doctrine). This interpretation of the principle of social justice does not seek to eliminate differences but reduces them to a level where they do not lead to social unrest. This, in turn, is achieved by relating inequalities back to “indisputable facts,” in which metaphysical evaluations of those facts, such as the religious meaning of poverty or the “sanctity of the family,” play a supporting role. Both the criteria of individual freedom and of equality can thus be respected in relation to each other, albeit in a very specific interpretation. “To each according to his rank” expresses social justice from this perspective.

This conservative interpretation of social justice, which lies at the core of 20th-century corporatist “welfare regime” versions of social policies, emerged as a defense against the arguments of two opposing interpretations of social policy [= the liberalist & socialist ones] which equally gave rise to distinct social policy regimes."

(Lorenz, Walter. "The Emergence of Social Justice in the West." In The Routledge International Handbook of Social Justice, edited by Michael Reisch, 14-26. Abingdon: Routledge, 2014. pp. 17-8)
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Consul
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Re: WOKE and proud of it....

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Immanuel Can wrote: Mon May 27, 2024 6:39 pm "Woke" is a misnomer. It was originally a misconjugation, an errant attempt to create a new adjective, and grammatically, should have been "awakened." Thus, it began as a product of semi-literacy. The hubristic import of it is supposed to be to suggest to critics that "We are awake to the important issues of justice, to which you lot are asleep." That's the obvious bit.

More academically, it means "Cultural Marxist." Thus it describes a large group of the Radical Left, including a wide variety of mutually-conflictual agendas, everything from race to sex to 'gender' to transing to fat to disability to aboriginality...and so on...as many grievance-styles as can be invoked to promote social disestablishment, which is supposed (according to the Neo-Marxists) to issue automatically in Marxist "liberations" of unspecified kinds.
There is such a (non-conspiracy-theoretical) political phenomenon as Cultural Marxism (see this post of mine!), but I think it's inaccurate to ideologically equate the Woke Left with Cultural Marxism. The Woke Left is a Cultural Left, but which Cultural Left is it?
In my understanding, the term "the Woke Left" is most appropriately used to refer to the successor of the New Left of the 1960s/70s = the post-70s Academic Cultural Left (ACL).

Not all people belonging to the Woke Left are academics, since there are many political activists outside academia. Given my use of the term, the ACL comprises both academic theorists and political activists (influenced and motivated by the former's theories) inside and outside the universities.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: WOKE and proud of it....

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Consul wrote: Thu May 30, 2024 4:41 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Mon May 27, 2024 6:39 pm "Woke" is a misnomer. It was originally a misconjugation, an errant attempt to create a new adjective, and grammatically, should have been "awakened." Thus, it began as a product of semi-literacy. The hubristic import of it is supposed to be to suggest to critics that "We are awake to the important issues of justice, to which you lot are asleep." That's the obvious bit.

More academically, it means "Cultural Marxist." Thus it describes a large group of the Radical Left, including a wide variety of mutually-conflictual agendas, everything from race to sex to 'gender' to transing to fat to disability to aboriginality...and so on...as many grievance-styles as can be invoked to promote social disestablishment, which is supposed (according to the Neo-Marxists) to issue automatically in Marxist "liberations" of unspecified kinds.
There is such a (non-conspiracy-theoretical) political phenomenon as Cultural Marxism (see this post of mine!), but I think it's inaccurate to ideologically equate the Woke Left with Cultural Marxism. The Woke Left is a Cultural Left, but which Cultural Left is it?
Not precisely. It's not a "cultural left," but rather a Left that employs specific aspects culled from culture, particularly anything that can be located as a source of alienation and claimed as proof of oppression, to generate its Marxist revolutionary masses.
In my understanding, the term "the Woke Left" is most appropriately used to refer to the successor of the New Left of the 1960s/70s = the post-70s Academic Cultural Left (ACL).
I think the term is actually much looser than that. Today, it's used to describe everything from the almost-completely-ignorant footsoldier of Marxism, to the preening pseudo-academics of Humanities and Education faculties, to the elitist political theorists who actually know they're Marxists and know why they're using Marxism. That's one huge range: and most of it is composed of the first class, a bit of the second, and very little of the third. But it's not as specific as you suggest, I would say. It's a sliding scale, and people are found everywhere along it.
Not all people belonging to the Woke Left are academics,..
Or even particularly bright. The footsoldiers are mostly pretty oblivious to the thing they're involved in. At most, they've glommed onto one particular meme or cause generated for them by the elites, and think that's what the whole movement is really about. Often they respond to simple slogans about things like "justice," or "equity" or "fairness," or "oppression," or "systemic guilt," or whatever. They're just not a smart bunch...but they're still sure they've "awakened" to important truths to which lesser mortals remain lamentably asleep. :roll:
Given my use of the term, the ACL comprises both academic theorists and political activists (influenced and motivated by the former's theories) inside and outside the universities.
Essentially, you make of my three categories, two. You simply combine the midwits with the sinister overlords, and make those two one. But I think maybe we agree that the great masses of Wokies are not them; they're the mostly-oblivious footsoldier types. But all are essential components of what we might call "Wokism," or "the Woke Movement." The elites could not do a thing without mobilizing the ignorant, preening, obsequious masses they are directing.
Alexiev
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Re: WOKE and proud of it....

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Immanuel Can wrote: Mon May 27, 2024 6:39 pm
Except, we do.

"Woke" is a misnomer. It was originally a misconjugation, an errant attempt to create a new adjective, and grammatically, should have been "awakened." Thus, it began as a product of semi-literacy.
Calling African American speech patterns "semi-literate" is racist. Different sub-cultures have differing word usages and grammars. These enrich the language.
Referring to them as "semi-literate" is incorrect. As the song goes, "Ain't necessarily so.".

P.s. Perhaps you think linguistic systems- like ethical systems-- are "objective". Both are culturally constituted.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: WOKE and proud of it....

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Alexiev wrote: Thu May 30, 2024 6:14 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Mon May 27, 2024 6:39 pm
Except, we do.

"Woke" is a misnomer. It was originally a misconjugation, an errant attempt to create a new adjective, and grammatically, should have been "awakened." Thus, it began as a product of semi-literacy.
Calling African American speech patterns "semi-literate" is racist.
So...you're claiming that their ignorance was a product of them being African American? :shock: Now THAT sounds racist to me. But how do you explain away the ignorance of the rich, white Leftists who have unthinkingly embraced the label "Woke" for themselves? What are you saying about them? Are you accusing them of stupidity, or "cultural appropriation"?
Alexiev
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Re: WOKE and proud of it....

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Immanuel Can wrote: Thu May 30, 2024 8:15 pm
So...you're claiming that their ignorance was a product of them being African American? :shock: Now THAT sounds racist to me. But how do you explain away the ignorance of the rich, white Leftists who have unthinkingly embraced the label "Woke" for themselves? What are you saying about them? Are you accusing them of stupidity, or "cultural appropriation"?
No. I'm claiming you are ignorant for thinking any education about literacy that differs from your own should be called "semi-literate".

Language evolves (as any educated person would know). Whining about this demonstrates bigotry and ignorance. Thanks for clarifying your position.
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Re: WOKE and proud of it....

Post by Immanuel Can »

Alexiev wrote: Thu May 30, 2024 10:24 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Thu May 30, 2024 8:15 pm
So...you're claiming that their ignorance was a product of them being African American? :shock: Now THAT sounds racist to me. But how do you explain away the ignorance of the rich, white Leftists who have unthinkingly embraced the label "Woke" for themselves? What are you saying about them? Are you accusing them of stupidity, or "cultural appropriation"?
No. I'm claiming you are ignorant for thinking any education about literacy that differs from your own should be called "semi-literate".
I'm "ignorant" for knowing Standard English? :lol:

Yes, well, it's an "ignorance" I will live with. It's much better than the kind that produced "Woke," and will keep "Wokeness" going indefinitely.
Alexiev
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Re: WOKE and proud of it....

Post by Alexiev »

Immanuel Can wrote: Thu May 30, 2024 10:28 pm
Alexiev wrote: Thu May 30, 2024 10:24 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Thu May 30, 2024 8:15 pm
So...you're claiming that their ignorance was a product of them being African American? :shock: Now THAT sounds racist to me. But how do you explain away the ignorance of the rich, white Leftists who have unthinkingly embraced the label "Woke" for themselves? What are you saying about them? Are you accusing them of stupidity, or "cultural appropriation"?
No. I'm claiming you are ignorant for thinking any education about literacy that differs from your own should be called "semi-literate".
I'm "ignorant" for knowing Standard English? :lol:

Yes, well, it's an "ignorance" I will live with. It's much better than the kind that produced "Woke," and will keep "Wokeness" going indefinitely.
You evidently don't know standard English. If you did, you would be able to understand what I wrote in clear, intelligible, English.
Last edited by Alexiev on Fri May 31, 2024 1:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: WOKE and proud of it....

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Alexiev wrote: Thu May 30, 2024 11:08 pm I wrote in cleat, intelligible, English.
:lol: Yes, it was totally 'cleat.'
Alexiev
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Re: WOKE and proud of it....

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Immanuel Can wrote: Thu May 30, 2024 11:29 pm
Alexiev wrote: Thu May 30, 2024 11:08 pm I wrote in cleat, intelligible, English.
:lol: Yes, it was totally 'cleat.'
You would be able to understand even with the typo, if you were intelligent.

Strangely, you seem to think proper word usage is standard and "objective". This appears similar to your idiotic notions of objective morality. Anyone who doesn't speak the English of which you approve is "semi-literate", a label you might apply to one billion Chinese. Anyone who doesn't comply with your brand of morality is sinful, a label you probably apply to everyone, unless you are a heretic.

Perhaps you should wake up. The light might be painful, until your eyes adjust. But then you might see.
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Re: WOKE and proud of it....

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Fuck it. I'm done with philosophy.
Last edited by Gary Childress on Fri May 31, 2024 2:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: WOKE and proud of it....

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.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: WOKE and proud of it....

Post by Immanuel Can »

Alexiev wrote: Fri May 31, 2024 1:49 am
Immanuel Can wrote: Thu May 30, 2024 11:29 pm
Alexiev wrote: Thu May 30, 2024 11:08 pm I wrote in cleat, intelligible, English.
:lol: Yes, it was totally 'cleat.'
You would be able to understand even with the typo, if you were intelligent.
And if you were, you wouldn't have made it.
Strangely, you seem to think...
Ah, the thing all people say just before they lie. 8) They write you a script, and expect you to agree with their scripting, and then pretend you said something just as silly as whatever they scripted.

No thank you.
Will Bouwman
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Re: WOKE and proud of it....

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Immanuel Can wrote: Wed May 29, 2024 1:56 pm
Will Bouwman wrote: Wed May 29, 2024 12:03 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Tue May 28, 2024 1:11 pm."Cultural" Marxism is a variation of Marxism. You're now speaking of "Classical" or "Economic" Marxism.
Not according to the ever reliable Wikipedia:
"Cultural Marxism" refers to a far-right antisemitic conspiracy theory that misrepresents the Frankfurt School as being responsible for modern progressive movements, identity politics, and political correctness.
Well, sorry to say, but that's what you get for trusting Wikipedia -- a half truth, combined with a misleading claim.
Oh you're too funny :lol: Thank you for your concern, but I have been taught well about the pitfalls of trusting any single source.
Immanuel Can wrote: Wed May 29, 2024 1:56 pm You see, Will, a "wiki" is an open-source "encyclopedia," where anybody can contribute anything. Often, that works. But sometimes it doesn't. And it may or may not be fact-checked.
Well done for noticing that. You're quite right of course; sometimes Wikipedia can be unreliable, and not only when you happen to disagree with it. :shock: Some people also find it very difficult to understand, much less accept, anything that doesn't comport with their own worldview, as I'm sure you find. I must say though, the author seems like a diligent fellow; there are 94 references. Do you know that's nearly a hundred? :shock:
Immanuel Can wrote: Wed May 29, 2024 1:56 pmSo what do you get? You get told that the truth is a "conspiracy theory," and apparentlly, nobody fact-checks that.
You poor, innocent thing. I'm afraid that just because you can make your pet theory make sense to you, it doesn't mean it is the truth. The thing with conspiracy theories is that if the central premise is something you agree with, the rationalisation, no matter how absurd, will strike you as entirely plausible.
Immanuel Can wrote: Wed May 29, 2024 1:56 pmBut the better thing to do is to check. The easiest way might be to read Lindsay's book, Race Marxism, or at least listen to some of his podcasts on it.
Oh dear. You're making matters worse. You see, Immanuel, by reading lots of things by people who say exactly what you want to hear, it reinforces your belief that you are right. It's a well known phenomenon called confirmation bias.
Immanuel Can wrote: Wed May 29, 2024 1:56 pmHe reads from the original documents in those, commenting as he goes. And in the book, he doesn't just make unsubstantiated claims like wikis sometimes do...he actually does the documentation for you. And it's all there. You won't be left in doubt.
I'm sure James Lindsey does his research but, and I think I might have mentioned this, it is entirely possible for different people to interpret exactly the same research in surprisingly different ways.
Immanuel Can wrote: Wed May 29, 2024 1:56 pmIt's what the Marxists would fain make you believe is a "conspiracy theory." But it's not.
Perhaps you mean feign rather than fain. Still I shan't let your confused vocabulary spoil civil discourse. :wink: I have to tell you, if I may, it is not Marxists that lead me to believe it is a conspiracy theory, rather, it is the fact that conspiracy theorists espouse it that I find compelling.
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Re: WOKE and proud of it....

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Will Bouwman wrote: Fri May 31, 2024 8:50 am
Immanuel Can wrote: Wed May 29, 2024 1:56 pm
Will Bouwman wrote: Wed May 29, 2024 12:03 pm Not according to the ever reliable Wikipedia:
"Cultural Marxism" refers to a far-right antisemitic conspiracy theory that misrepresents the Frankfurt School as being responsible for modern progressive movements, identity politics, and political correctness.
Well, sorry to say, but that's what you get for trusting Wikipedia -- a half truth, combined with a misleading claim.
Oh you're too funny :lol: Thank you for your concern, but I have been taught well about the pitfalls of trusting any single source.
Immanuel Can wrote: Wed May 29, 2024 1:56 pm You see, Will, a "wiki" is an open-source "encyclopedia," where anybody can contribute anything. Often, that works. But sometimes it doesn't. And it may or may not be fact-checked.
Well done for noticing that. You're quite right of course; sometimes Wikipedia can be unreliable, and not only when you happen to disagree with it. :shock: Some people also find it very difficult to understand, much less accept, anything that doesn't comport with their own worldview, as I'm sure you find. I must say though, the author seems like a diligent fellow; there are 94 references. Do you know that's nearly a hundred? :shock:
Immanuel Can wrote: Wed May 29, 2024 1:56 pmSo what do you get? You get told that the truth is a "conspiracy theory," and apparentlly, nobody fact-checks that.
You poor, innocent thing. I'm afraid that just because you can make your pet theory make sense to you, it doesn't mean it is the truth. The thing with conspiracy theories is that if the central premise is something you agree with, the rationalisation, no matter how absurd, will strike you as entirely plausible.
Immanuel Can wrote: Wed May 29, 2024 1:56 pmBut the better thing to do is to check. The easiest way might be to read Lindsay's book, Race Marxism, or at least listen to some of his podcasts on it.
Oh dear. You're making matters worse. You see, Immanuel, by reading lots of things by people who say exactly what you want to hear, it reinforces your belief that you are right. It's a well known phenomenon called confirmation bias.
Immanuel Can wrote: Wed May 29, 2024 1:56 pmHe reads from the original documents in those, commenting as he goes. And in the book, he doesn't just make unsubstantiated claims like wikis sometimes do...he actually does the documentation for you. And it's all there. You won't be left in doubt.
I'm sure James Lindsey does his research but, and I think I might have mentioned this, it is entirely possible for different people to interpret exactly the same research in surprisingly different ways.
Immanuel Can wrote: Wed May 29, 2024 1:56 pmIt's what the Marxists would fain make you believe is a "conspiracy theory." But it's not.
Perhaps you mean feign rather than fain. Still I shan't let your confused vocabulary spoil civil discourse. :wink: I have to tell you, if I may, it is not Marxists that lead me to believe it is a conspiracy theory, rather, it is the fact that conspiracy theorists espouse it that I find compelling.
I'd just like to say that I have no idea what you are both arguing about and I can't discern anything different in what you are both saying. (granted, I've only bothered reading the last few posts)

However.

I'd just like to say, that I am glad that you are both in our village, even though you both appear to be talking gibberish, or bollocks depending on what part of the village I am now attempting to assimilate in a way that can comprehend ME. :wink:
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