Is morality objective or subjective?

[Immanuel Can]

Hunger is just a feeling, but it is very difficult to ignore it, and that's how it also is with conscience.

Difficult? Not really, apparently.

Conscience is nowhere near so urgent as hunger, because eventually, you just can't ignore hunger -- and if you do, you'll die. But people can ignore their consciences, or even get used to ignoring them, so that the conscience never bothers them again on a particular point.

I suppose that's true. And hunger itself will sometimes override a person's conscience and make them do horrible things. I don't know if a person can go their entire life without ever meeting up with their conscience if they do wrong, but then again, I'm not everyone. I can only attest for myself. I generally feel rotten when I think of things I did wrong. And so I don't do them again.

Okay. But that still leaves the key question: WHY do you think you are a better person for following your conscience in that rather than ignoring or overcoming it?

And are you objectively a better person, or are you only subjectively more pleased with yourself, but objectively not any better a person at all?

[Sculptor]

I agree. There's a point where a person can feel horrible about something we've done and seek to remedy it or refrain from ever doing it again. And it can't be just wished away or swept under the carpet. At least that is the case in my experience and seems to be in yours as well.

You know that, and I know it, but it seems not everyone knows it.

It is "bad" that they don't know it?

And do you mean, "objectively bad," or just "Gary and Harbal feel differently, but those who have no conscience are just fine"?

No it just means that you are wrong yet again

[Gary Childress]

Difficult? Not really, apparently.

Conscience is nowhere near so urgent as hunger, because eventually, you just can't ignore hunger -- and if you do, you'll die. But people can ignore their consciences, or even get used to ignoring them, so that the conscience never bothers them again on a particular point.

I suppose that's true. And hunger itself will sometimes override a person's conscience and make them do horrible things. I don't know if a person can go their entire life without ever meeting up with their conscience if they do wrong, but then again, I'm not everyone. I can only attest for myself. I generally feel rotten when I think of things I did wrong. And so I don't do them again.

Okay. But that still leaves the key question: WHY do you think you are a better person for following your conscience in that rather than ignoring or overcoming it?

And are you objectively a better person, or are you only subjectively more pleased with yourself, but objectively not any better a person at all?

I don't think I am better. I'm weak and frail and mortal. There are much better people out there than me who have done less harm and have less to feel bad about. I will admit that. And there are people who have done much worse than I have. It is my belief that they too will come to realize that their wrongs will haunt them, just as my wrongs haunt me.

[Immanuel Can]

You know that, and I know it, but it seems not everyone knows it.

It is "bad" that they don't know it?

And do you mean, "objectively bad," or just "Gary and Harbal feel differently, but those who have no conscience are just fine"?

No it just means that you are wrong yet again

So Gary and Harbal are "wrong"?

Objectively, or subjectively? It can't be subjectively, because subjectively, they say they follow their consciences, and are thus subjectively alright. So you must mean they're objectively wrong. So are you now a moral objectivist?

[Immanuel Can]

I suppose that's true. And hunger itself will sometimes override a person's conscience and make them do horrible things. I don't know if a person can go their entire life without ever meeting up with their conscience if they do wrong, but then again, I'm not everyone. I can only attest for myself. I generally feel rotten when I think of things I did wrong. And so I don't do them again.

Okay. But that still leaves the key question: WHY do you think you are a better person for following your conscience in that rather than ignoring or overcoming it?

And are you objectively a better person, or are you only subjectively more pleased with yourself, but objectively not any better a person at all?

I don't think I am better. I'm weak and frail and mortal. There are much better people out there than me who have done less harm and have less to feel bad about. I will admit that.

Do you mean they're objectively "better," or just that Gary prefers them to himself?

And there are people who have done much worse than I have.

Objectively worse? Or are these just people whose actions Gary doesn't happen to like, when compared to his own?

It is my belief that they too will come to realize that their wrongs will haunt them, just as my wrongs haunt me.

But why should a mere subjective difference "haunt" anybody? Just change your subjectivity, right?

[Gary Childress]

It is "bad" that they don't know it?

And do you mean, "objectively bad," or just "Gary and Harbal feel differently, but those who have no conscience are just fine"?

No it just means that you are wrong yet again

So Gary and Harbal are "wrong"?

For things that I've done which my conscience comes back to tell me were wrong, yes. I am wrong for those things.

[Gary Childress]

Okay. But that still leaves the key question: WHY do you think you are a better person for following your conscience in that rather than ignoring or overcoming it?

And are you objectively a better person, or are you only subjectively more pleased with yourself, but objectively not any better a person at all?

I don't think I am better. I'm weak and frail and mortal. There are much better people out there than me who have done less harm and have less to feel bad about. I will admit that.

Do you mean they're objectively "better," or just that Gary prefers them to himself?

And there are people who have done much worse than I have.

Objectively worse? Or are these just people whose actions Gary doesn't happen to like, when compared to his own?

It is my belief that they too will come to realize that their wrongs will haunt them, just as my wrongs haunt me.

But why should a mere subjective difference "haunt" anybody? Just change your subjectivity, right?

You're annoyingly dense. What do you want from me? Do you want me to tell you that there's a God and God drowned everyone at one point, told Abraham to sacrifice his son just to see how loyal he would be and told the Israelites to kill women and children of their enemies. I'm agnostic. I don't know where conscience comes from but I do know it's real, at least in my world.

[Harbal]

You see, Gary, if according to your worldview, "conscience" is no more than a feeling

Hunger is just a feeling, but it is very difficult to ignore it, and that's how it also is with conscience.

Difficult? Not really, apparently.

I find it difficult, and Gary also seems to find it difficult, but you are right, I can't speak for everyone.

Conscience is nowhere near so urgent as hunger, because eventually, you just can't ignore hunger -- and if you do, you'll die.

Yes, that's true. Hunger is a physical sensation, while conscience is an emotional, or psychological, sensation, so there is that difference, but what they have in common is that they both function as motivators. It depends on the circumstances, but in general, it probably is harder to ignore the sensation of hunger than that of conscience, but that makes sense; our enhanced social behaviour does no one much good if we are dead. While we can ignore our conscience, it is an uncomfortable experience, so we do have reason not to ignore it.

But people can ignore their consciences, or even get used to ignoring them, so that the conscience never bothers them again on a particular point.

But most people don't seem to do that. I know your preferred alternative is to let God be the judge of right and wrong, but I don't see how God is any harder to ignore than one's conscience. We also have to remember that God doesn't always get it right, so it is very important that we stay in touch with our own conscience.

And some people have less conscience, or no conscience about what others have conscience, or lack conscience altogether, as in the case of sociopaths, narcissists, and psychopaths.

True, but do sociopaths, narcissists, and psychopaths tend to worry very much about what God thinks of them?

So what tells us we "owe" it to something to capitulate to our particular consciences, or anybody's conscience?

Our emotions tell us.

[Immanuel Can]

No it just means that you are wrong yet again

So Gary and Harbal are "wrong"?

For things that I've done which my conscience comes back to tell me were wrong, yes. I am wrong for those things.

Subjectively or objectively wrong?

[Gary Childress]

So Gary and Harbal are "wrong"?

For things that I've done which my conscience comes back to tell me were wrong, yes. I am wrong for those things.

Subjectively or objectively wrong?

I don't know. It depends on what is meant by "subjective" and "objective".

[Harbal]

I agree. There's a point where a person can feel horrible about something we've done and seek to remedy it or refrain from ever doing it again. And it can't be just wished away or swept under the carpet. At least that is the case in my experience and seems to be in yours as well.

You know that, and I know it, but it seems not everyone knows it.

It is "bad" that they don't know it?

And do you mean, "objectively bad," or just "Gary and Harbal feel differently, but those who have no conscience are just fine"?

I didn't say anything about it being bad.

[Immanuel Can]

I don't think I am better. I'm weak and frail and mortal. There are much better people out there than me who have done less harm and have less to feel bad about. I will admit that.

Do you mean they're objectively "better," or just that Gary prefers them to himself?

And there are people who have done much worse than I have.

Objectively worse? Or are these just people whose actions Gary doesn't happen to like, when compared to his own?

It is my belief that they too will come to realize that their wrongs will haunt them, just as my wrongs haunt me.

But why should a mere subjective difference "haunt" anybody? Just change your subjectivity, right?

You're annoyingly dense.

I'm not being dense. I'm showing you that what you're saying, when you say that morality is subjective, fails to reflect anything intelligible that you want to communicate about morality.

What do you want from me?

Logic. Common sense. Consistency. It's not too much to ask, is it?

I'm agnostic. I don't know where conscience comes from but I do know it's real, at least in my world.

Objectively real, or just "a feeling in Gary's 'world'"?

[Immanuel Can]

You know that, and I know it, but it seems not everyone knows it.

It is "bad" that they don't know it?

And do you mean, "objectively bad," or just "Gary and Harbal feel differently, but those who have no conscience are just fine"?

I didn't say anything about it being bad.

So it's not bad if people don't know it?

Or do you mean that it really is bad, but you didn't say it was bad?

[Immanuel Can]

For things that I've done which my conscience comes back to tell me were wrong, yes. I am wrong for those things.

Subjectively or objectively wrong?

I don't know. It depends on what is meant by "subjective" and "objective".

Objective: externally real. True when Gary knows it, but also even when Gary doesn't know it.

Subjective: 'true' only in Gary's mind, but not required in any other.

Which is it, when Gary violates his conscience? Is it externally bad, or just bad to the extent that, for this moment, Gary thinks it is.

[Harbal]

It is "bad" that they don't know it?

And do you mean, "objectively bad," or just "Gary and Harbal feel differently, but those who have no conscience are just fine"?

I didn't say anything about it being bad.

So it's not bad if people don't know it?

Or do you mean that it really is bad, but you didn't say it was bad?

I mean that Gary and I seem to know how compelling one's conscience can be, but some others, you for example, do not seem to share such awareness.