Is morality objective or subjective?

[Gary Childress]

...it would be impossible to live with oneself if one went about doing what is literally the worst, cruelest and most wicked thing one can do to another human being -- denying him the knowledge of God, so his death is followed by a lost eternity.

But don't take my word for it. The same obvious point is made by arch-Atheist Penn Jillette:

“I don’t respect people who don’t proselytize."

I used to think that, I even opened the door to Jehovah's witnesses. Then it occurred to me: if your supreme god can't persuade me, what is it that you can do better that might change my mind? Also, dunno if you've noticed, but not all human beings are hims.

I have friends who are Christian and bless their souls I love them to death. I enjoy their company but I just can't get into certain aspects of Christianity. Really the one and only thing that does draw me to Christianity is that I always find them welcoming and sincere, so I'm generally welcoming and sincere in return. I mean, I'm not an atheist, though I am skeptical or have my reservations about the existence of a God. There are just sticking points that I have trouble with.

I'm actually going to a Christian program tonight called Celebrate Recovery to commune with my fellow lowly members when compared to society's well to do. It's for anyone who has something they're trying to recover from, whether addiction or mental illness. I figure I'm trying to recover a sense of the goodness of God (in addition to my mental health).

[Immanuel Can]

But if you go out and screw someone over, then by all means, ask God for forgiveness. It'll probably be a lot easier than facing the person you owe it to, though, irrelevant.

Well, reparations are part of repentance, so that's not good enough. Somebody who is really changing their mind about how they've treated another person will go and make it right.

That being said, all sins, ultimately, are against God. God is the ultimate Creator and rightful Sovereign over every person. We do not belong to ourselves. We did not create ourselves, are not made for ourselves, and will not be accountable to ourselves. We're contingent, created beings.

If there's no God, then there's no sin in whatever you do to another person, either. So the very concept of being able to "screw somebody over," as you put it, is actually tacitly premised on the idea that there's an objective immoral status to doing that. But as so many have pointed out here already, if there's no God, there's no objectivity to morality either.

[Immanuel Can]

...it would be impossible to live with oneself if one went about doing what is literally the worst, cruelest and most wicked thing one can do to another human being -- denying him the knowledge of God, so his death is followed by a lost eternity.

But don't take my word for it. The same obvious point is made by arch-Atheist Penn Jillette:

“I don’t respect people who don’t proselytize."

I used to think that, I even opened the door to Jehovah's witnesses. Then it occurred to me: if your supreme god can't persuade me, what is it that you can do better that might change my mind?

Changing somebody's mind has to be voluntary, Will. To force somebody to change their mind is not to change their mind, but to deprive them of a mind.

Also, dunno if you've noticed, but not all human beings are hims.

"Hims"? What are you trying to convey by saying that, Will?

[Immanuel Can]

Celebrate Recovery

I know it. Good people.

[Gary Childress]

But if you go out and screw someone over, then by all means, ask God for forgiveness. It'll probably be a lot easier than facing the person you owe it to, though, irrelevant.

Well, reparations are part of repentance, so that's not good enough. Somebody who is really changing their mind about how they've treated another person will go and make it right.

That being said, all sins, ultimately, are against God. God is the ultimate Creator and rightful Sovereign over every person. We do not belong to ourselves. We did not create ourselves, are not made for ourselves, and will not be accountable to ourselves. We're contingent, created beings.

If there's no God, then there's no sin in whatever you do to another person, either. So the very concept of being able to "screw somebody over," as you put it, is actually tacitly premised on the idea that there's an objective immoral status to doing that. But as so many have pointed out here already, if there's no God, there's no objectivity to morality either.

I don't bring God into the matter at all. Even when I was an atheist I had a conscience. My view is that I wouldn't want something done to me that screwed me over (meaning harmed me deeply) and therefore I will repair what I do to others as best I can. I like to make friends, not enemies. I also pay it forward a bit when I can.

If there was indeed no God, I'd still have compassion for fellow humans. Heck, I don't like harming animals either. I think most of us have an innate sense of conscience and shame when we do something we know we wouldn't like done to ourselves. God is something extra that supposedly handles the things that can't get ironed out in this life. Admittedly, if there's a God, I'd rather the accounting be handled in this lifetime than meet someone in an afterlife and have to face them for something I didn't make amends with them for.

[Sculptor]

That being said, all sins, ultimately, are against God. God is the ultimate Creator and rightful Sovereign over every person. We do not belong to ourselves. We did not create ourselves, are not made for ourselves, and will not be accountable to ourselves. We're contingent, created beings.

Hilarious.

[popeye1945]

That being said, all sins, ultimately, are against God. God is the ultimate Creator and rightful Sovereign over every person. We do not belong to ourselves. We did not create ourselves, are not made for ourselves, and will not be accountable to ourselves. We're contingent, created beings.

Hilarious.

He used to write for Saturday Night Live!!!

[Immanuel Can]

Even when I was an atheist I had a conscience.

I don't deny you did, and that you do now. But if you'll forgive me, for the present discussion, that's not a very interesting fact, because it doesn't say anything about why you're obligated to follow that conscience. Maybe you're not. Maybe "conscience" is just an "underevolved" sense of inhibition, one you could be better to get past...how would you prove to yourself it was not that?

You see, Gary, if according to your worldview, "conscience" is no more than a feeling that accidentally got into human makeup through the vagaries of time and chance, an artifact of some stage of human evolution. What binds you to any obligation to follow it, especially in the many and various cases when it turns out to be a nuisance to something you really want to do, or denies something that offers you a definite survival advantage, or compels you to do something hazardous to your own advantage?

So yes, you may have had a conscience. But in the absence of anything to bestow upon that conscience some special dignity, and in the absence of some objective moral duty, that's not telling of anything at all. It's just a contingent fact: "Gary felt good/bad when X." But if that's all it means, so what?

[Gary Childress]

Even when I was an atheist I had a conscience.

I don't deny you did, and that you do now. But if you'll forgive me, for the present discussion, that's not a very interesting fact, because it doesn't say anything about why you're obligated to follow that conscience. Maybe you're not. Maybe "conscience" is just an "underevolved" sense of inhibition, one you could be better to get past...how would you prove to yourself it was not that?

You see, Gary, if according to your worldview, "conscience" is no more than a feeling that accidentally got into human makeup through the vagaries of time and chance, an artifact of some stage of human evolution. What binds you to any obligation to follow it, especially in the many and various cases when it turns out to be a nuisance to something you really want to do, or denies something that offers you a definite survival advantage, or compels you to do something hazardous to your own advantage?

So yes, you may have had a conscience. But in the absence of anything to bestow upon that conscience some special dignity, and in the absence of some objective moral duty, that's not telling of anything at all. It's just a contingent fact: "Gary felt good/bad when X." But if that's all it means, so what?

I suppose that's a fair point. I don't know how to counter it.

[Harbal]

You see, Gary, if according to your worldview, "conscience" is no more than a feeling

Hunger is just a feeling, but it is very difficult to ignore it, and that's how it also is with conscience.

[Gary Childress]

You see, Gary, if according to your worldview, "conscience" is no more than a feeling

Hunger is just a feeling, but it is very difficult to ignore it, and that's how it also is with conscience.

I agree. There's a point where a person can feel horrible about something we've done and seek to remedy it or refrain from ever doing it again. And it can't be just wished away or swept under the carpet. At least that is the case in my experience and seems to be in yours as well.

[Immanuel Can]

You see, Gary, if according to your worldview, "conscience" is no more than a feeling

Hunger is just a feeling, but it is very difficult to ignore it, and that's how it also is with conscience.

Difficult? Not really, apparently.

Conscience is nowhere near so urgent as hunger, because eventually, you just can't ignore hunger -- and if you do, you'll die. But people can ignore their consciences, or even get used to ignoring them, so that the conscience never bothers them again on a particular point. And some people have less conscience, or no conscience about what others have conscience, or lack conscience altogether, as in the case of sociopaths, narcissists, and psychopaths.

So what tells us we "owe" it to something to capitulate to our particular consciences, or anybody's conscience?

[Harbal]

You see, Gary, if according to your worldview, "conscience" is no more than a feeling

Hunger is just a feeling, but it is very difficult to ignore it, and that's how it also is with conscience.

I agree. There's a point where a person can feel horrible about something we've done and seek to remedy it or refrain from ever doing it again. And it can't be just wished away or swept under the carpet. At least that is the case in my experience and seems to be in yours as well.

You know that, and I know it, but it seems not everyone knows it.

[Immanuel Can]

Hunger is just a feeling, but it is very difficult to ignore it, and that's how it also is with conscience.

I agree. There's a point where a person can feel horrible about something we've done and seek to remedy it or refrain from ever doing it again. And it can't be just wished away or swept under the carpet. At least that is the case in my experience and seems to be in yours as well.

You know that, and I know it, but it seems not everyone knows it.

It is "bad" that they don't know it?

And do you mean, "objectively bad," or just "Gary and Harbal feel differently, but those who have no conscience are just fine"?

[Gary Childress]

You see, Gary, if according to your worldview, "conscience" is no more than a feeling

Hunger is just a feeling, but it is very difficult to ignore it, and that's how it also is with conscience.

Difficult? Not really, apparently.

Conscience is nowhere near so urgent as hunger, because eventually, you just can't ignore hunger -- and if you do, you'll die. But people can ignore their consciences, or even get used to ignoring them, so that the conscience never bothers them again on a particular point.

I suppose that's true. And hunger itself will sometimes override a person's conscience and make them do horrible things. I don't know if a person can go their entire life without ever meeting up with their conscience if they do wrong, but then again, I'm not everyone. I can only attest for myself. I generally feel rotten when I think of things I did wrong. And so I don't do them again.