Is morality objective or subjective?

[Immanuel Can]

It would seem you are. There's no such entity. So your question didn't make any sense.

It seems that you, for God's sake, have completely forgotten about people.

I'm sorry...this isn't making sense. Are you trying to argue that "people" are "lord of Hell"?

[Gary Childress]

I don't know. Plenty of bad things happen in this world to good people and plenty of good things happen in this world to bad people. I don't believe God cares one whit. God is neither good nor bad, just indifferent. Human religion is a joke. People like George Bush and Putin wreak havoc on us all and pay pretty much no price for it that anyone else isn't. As far as I can tell, the rest of us are the ones who end up eating the most shit for what they do.

[bahman]

Do you love Satan?

Do you love cancer, AIDS, and anthrax?

Those are the results of living in a cursed world. Lovely God cursed the ground. Did you forget?

Well, what do you do with Ephesians 2:8-9? What do you do with Titus 3:5?

I don't believe in the Bible.

Well, that's a choice.

That is the right choice. Why should I believe the God that does not prise people who put hard work on becoming sinless!?

[bahman]

I don't know. Plenty of bad things happen in this world to good people and plenty of good things happen in this world to bad people. I don't believe God cares one whit. God is neither good nor bad, just indifferent. Human religion is a joke. People like George Bush and Putin wreak havoc on us all and pay pretty much no price for it that anyone else isn't. As far as I can tell, the rest of us are the ones who end up eating the most shit for what they do.

You are right Garry, God is indifferent!

[nemos]

I'm sorry...this isn't making sense.

Well, unlike normal religious people (the same ones whose faith you like to ignore), who think that the devil lives in hell, you claim that the devil has no home (well, at least it doesn't in hell) - the thoughts arise, if the devil doesn't have a home, then maybe the devil there isn't either, and he is just fiction - and there is only the GOD almighty, who, as everyone(except maybe you) knows, lives in heaven?

Are you trying to argue that "people" are "lord of Hell"?

Interesting thought, it's significant that you mentioned it. Maybe you should get courage and develop it further without stopping halfway?

[Immanuel Can]

God cursed the ground. Did you forget?

Not at all. But consider if He had not. Consider if He had let man choose to be fallen, but kept the larger Creation perfect.

If the Creation had remained unfallen, but the creature, man, been unfallen, we'd have had no place to live suitable to our nature and situation. Our free choices would have no place in which to be made real.

Why should I believe the God that does not prise people who put hard work on becoming sinless!?

Because you're looking for sinlessness in the wrong place. You can look for it in yourself for a thousand years, and it will never be yours. In fact, you've already fallen short of it, if you've lived at all in this world, as the kind of people we are. And I'm pretty sure you know that, because you don't say you are already perfect, but that sinlessness is a state you wish to attain.

So that ship has sailed, long ago.

[Immanuel Can]

I'm sorry...this isn't making sense.

Well, unlike normal religious people who think that the devil lives in hell...

What's "normal" about a person claiming to be a Christian and yet insisting on believing something he should know that the Bible says isn't true?

You'll have to explain that to me.

[Harbal]

I'm sorry...this isn't making sense.

Well, unlike normal religious people who think that the devil lives in hell...

What's "normal" about a person claiming to be a Christian and yet insisting on believing something he should know that the Bible says isn't true?

Far be it from me to tell you what a Christian is, but I'm pretty sure that a lot of Christians (maybe most) don't regard everything in the Bible as literal truth.

[Immanuel Can]

Far be it from me to tell you what a Christian is, but I'm pretty sure that a lot of Christians (maybe most) don't regard everything in the Bible as literal truth.

"Far be it" from you, and then, in a sense, you do it?

A "Christian," you say, are members of some group of people most of whom "don't regard everything in the Bible as literal truth"?

I'm not sure how far that definition is going to hold up.

[bahman]

God cursed the ground. Did you forget?

Not at all. But consider if He had not. Consider if He had let man choose to be fallen, but kept the larger Creation perfect.

If the Creation had remained unfallen, but the creature, man, been unfallen, we'd have had no place to live suitable to our nature and situation. Our free choices would have no place in which to be made real.

He could create Paradise without a tree of knowledge. What did we gain from eating the fruit!? Nothing!

Why should I believe the God that does not prise people who put hard work on becoming sinless!?

Because you're looking for sinlessness in the wrong place. You can look for it in yourself for a thousand years, and it will never be yours. In fact, you've already fallen short of it, if you've lived at all in this world, as the kind of people we are. And I'm pretty sure you know that, because you don't say you are already perfect, but that sinlessness is a state you wish to attain.

So that ship has sailed, long ago.

Of course, I am not perfect yet. Your comment however does not answer my question.

[Immanuel Can]

What did we gain from eating the fruit!? Nothing!

What we got, of course, was now what we wanted but exactly what we deserved. What God made out of that tragedy has been something much better: the ability to choose God freely.

Why should I believe the God that does not prise people who put hard work on becoming sinless!?

Because you're looking for sinlessness in the wrong place. You can look for it in yourself for a thousand years, and it will never be yours. In fact, you've already fallen short of it, if you've lived at all in this world, as the kind of people we are. And I'm pretty sure you know that, because you don't say you are already perfect, but that sinlessness is a state you wish to attain.

So that ship has sailed, long ago.

Of course, I am not perfect yet. Your comment however does not answer my question.

Well, let me answer it even more directly, then: you should believe in Him because He's God. And to believe in the truth, in reality, is always better than to believe something else, even if we prefer that other thing.

[Harbal]

Far be it from me to tell you what a Christian is, but I'm pretty sure that a lot of Christians (maybe most) don't regard everything in the Bible as literal truth.

"Far be it" from you, and then, in a sense, you do it?

"Far be it from me" is one of those expressions that gives the speaker permission to do what he freely acknowledges it is not his place to do. A bit like how starting a sentence with, "I don't want to offend you, but," gives you permission to go on and do that very thing.

A "Christian," you say, are members of some group of people most of whom "don't regard everything in the Bible as literal truth"?

I am only telling you of the impression I get. And that impression is that it isn't unusual for someone to be a Christian and yet not consider the Bible to be a matter of literal truth. The story of Adam and Eve, and Noah and the flood, for example, or the actual existence of the Devil or Satan. I don't think these things a considered to be factual by the majority of Christians. Maybe I'm wrong, perhaps most Christians aren't as sensible as English Christians.

I'm not sure how far that definition is going to hold up.

Perhaps the definition of "Christian" isn't as rigid as you would like it to be, but I suppose you will work your usual magic and transform it into something you find more satisfying.

[Immanuel Can]

Far be it from me to tell you what a Christian is, but I'm pretty sure that a lot of Christians (maybe most) don't regard everything in the Bible as literal truth.

"Far be it" from you, and then, in a sense, you do it?

"Far be it from me" is one of those expressions that gives the speaker permission to do what he freely acknowledges it is not his place to do. A bit like how starting a sentence with, "I don't want to offend you, but," gives you permission to go on and do that very thing.

Well, as far as I'm concerned, you have "permission." In fact, I don't see any way somebody could even use a word without having some idea of what domain of meaning that word covered. So if you say "Christian," and use that label for some group of people, I'm sure you must have some conception of what makes them all "Christians."

A "Christian," you say, are members of some group of people most of whom "don't regard everything in the Bible as literal truth"?

I am only telling you of the impression I get.

From what group of entities you regard as "Christian"? Is it from all the people born in a "Christian country" as they call it? Or is it all the people in the C of E, which I believe is your personal frame of experience? Or is it all the people who use the term "Christian" as a self-description? Who are these people of whom you speak, and what makes them "Christians," so far as you are concerned?

I'm not sure how far that definition is going to hold up.

Perhaps the definition of "Christian" isn't as rigid as you would like it to be...

Perhaps. But any definition, if it is a good one, has to cover the right domain of referents. That is, there needs to be some group of entities that term to which that term aptly applies. And I'm not sure what domain of referents you have in your mind; but it might be a little more floppy than rigid.

[bahman]

What did we gain from eating the fruit!? Nothing!

What we got, of course, was now what we wanted but exactly what we deserved. What God made out of that tragedy has been something much better: the ability to choose God freely.

So pain for no gain!

Because you're looking for sinlessness in the wrong place. You can look for it in yourself for a thousand years, and it will never be yours. In fact, you've already fallen short of it, if you've lived at all in this world, as the kind of people we are. And I'm pretty sure you know that, because you don't say you are already perfect, but that sinlessness is a state you wish to attain.

So that ship has sailed, long ago.

Of course, I am not perfect yet. Your comment however does not answer my question.

Well, let me answer it even more directly, then: you should believe in Him because He's God. And to believe in the truth, in reality, is always better than to believe something else, even if we prefer that other thing.

Well, if there is such thing as God who is omni-everything, then sure He knows things that we don't know. That however does not tell that we in principle cannot know what God knows since the truth might be limited. But who knows, if there is such a thing as God! In this case, we have to find the truth alone.

[Harbal]

"Far be it" from you, and then, in a sense, you do it?

"Far be it from me" is one of those expressions that gives the speaker permission to do what he freely acknowledges it is not his place to do. A bit like how starting a sentence with, "I don't want to offend you, but," gives you permission to go on and do that very thing.

Well, as far as I'm concerned, you have "permission." In fact, I don't see any way somebody could even use a word without having some idea of what domain of meaning that word covered. So if you say "Christian," and use that label for some group of people, I'm sure you must have some conception of what makes them all "Christians."

I found this definition:

How does the Bible define a Christian?

Many people think that going to church occasionally or simply believing in God makes them a Christian. But the Bible presents a different perspective and definition of a Christian. A Christian is someone whose behavior and heart reflects Jesus Christ. Followers of Jesus were first called “Christians” in Antioch.

I have no idea when a heart reflects Jesus Christ, so I can only take the word of someone who claims to be a Christian.

I am only telling you of the impression I get.

From what group of entities you regard as "Christian"? Is it from all the people born in a "Christian country" as they call it? Or is it all the people in the C of E, which I believe is your personal frame of experience? Or is it all the people who use the term "Christian" as a self-description? Who are these people of whom you speak, and what makes them "Christians," so far as you are concerned?

What I said is based on conversations I have heard; some where I was present, and others on TV, etc. I am not presenting you with anything statistically significant, I am only saying what appears to be the case to me. Maybe I'm wrong, and I wouldn't mind in the slightest if I were. As for identifying someone as Christian, my only means of doing that is by accepting the word of those who make that claim.

Perhaps. But any definition, if it is a good one, has to cover the right domain of referents. That is, there needs to be some group of entities that term to which that term aptly applies. And I'm not sure what domain of referents you have in your mind; but it might be a little more floppy than rigid.

Precision can sometimes be crucial when it comes to definitions, but I have never yet been in a situation where I have found that to be the case with the word, "Christian", so I don't really mind how floppy the definition is. I daresay there are many who would object to being stripped of the title, "Christian", by you, but that's not my concern. I don't have a problem with there being fewer Christians than I had thought.