Is morality objective or subjective?

[nemos]

Point to where there's any "lord of hell" in the Bible, and I'll answer.

Isn't there strength in faith? Which of the godly (I mean the ordinary ones, maybe not the academic ones) does not believe in hell or maybe Gehenna or Valley of Hinnom ?
Or will you say that all the godly do not know what they believe?

[Alexis Jacobi]

I know you think me soulless, but my upbringing and background was such that I was never touched by any kind of religion, so I have little insight into the experience of those who are involved in it. And that is something I do not regret in the slightest.

As far as my views and perceptions go, it is all in flux. Presently, I tend to think that our best use of time an energy is toward high-minded, tangible, self- and community-enhancing actions.

Instead of training in religion per se I think an education in our own classics tradition (Homer to Heidegger for example) is a sound choice. Familiarity with ethics (our own traditions of ethics) seems necessary. But I reject a religious cultivation based in guilt. I reject a •conquering god•.

I do think that Christianity (and all religion) should be analyzed harshly. Even as sharply as say Voltaire.

We have access here to an extraordinary anti-teacher in Immanuel Can. So many of his assertions, when examined, are clearly seen as faulted.

Although I am a sort-of theist, I recognize (and believe it sound) that any god experience (and I’ve had them) is an internal affair.

So it is strange I suppose to say I could not critique someone with an atheist standpoint. One does not need “god” to live life. If we are in “god’s manifest works” we only need to value where we are and set our eyes on the best things. For us, our children, our community. There was some pre-Socratic Greek philosopher who proposed that “the world” is god. I.e. that we are in god living. Realization of that can be — is — profound.

There are many many roads of self-cultivation.

Naturally I will continue my *critique* of IC but always from a certain remove. He is •perfect for all this•.

[bahman]

Don't worry: human beings are not all-knowing. If that were a problem for God (and I'd say it's not, even for him) it's certainly not going to happen to us.

So you agree that doubt is a good thing?

I wouldn't necessarily have understood "doubt" that way, but the fact of our human limitedness means that there are always going to be things we don't know yet.

Yes, it is intellectually entertaining to have doubts and then discover the truth.

I didn't say we had to wait for heaven. God's interested in starting His work with us right now.

But to start becoming holy you have to love all God's creatures so you need to open yourself to all, good or evil!

Actually, the opposite is true. "Holy" means "set apart to sacred uses." To be "holy," then, is NOT to be like all creatures, but to be specially "set apart" from them. Nor is being "holy" to fail to discern when something is "unholy," which is the opposite. It's to be dedicated to God, not to all that is ungodly. And so it requires discernment...just as "religions" do.

Let's say Godly instead of holy?

Haven't you wondered why God set Satan free to do His job?

I have. But the fact that God has brought good out of an evil situation (or person) doesn't mean that evil is suddenly made good. Things can come to ends they personally never intended, and bad things can be overruled by God to produce a good result. But evil remains evil, and good remains good.

And God's plan for us is not ignorance, but knowledge of Him.

Yes, God's plan was to put us in a state of ignorance and see how we overcome it.

[Immanuel Can]

Point to where there's any "lord of hell" in the Bible, and I'll answer.

Which of the godly (I mean the ordinary ones, maybe not the academic ones) does not believe in hell or maybe Gehenna or Valley of Hinnom ?

Where is this "lord," who rules Gehenna or the Valley of Hinnom?

[Immanuel Can]

Let's say Godly instead of holy?

Okay. But to be Godly is not to be like Satan.

Yes, God's plan was to put us in a state of ignorance and see how we overcome it.

The Gnostics think that "ignorance" is a kind of original sin, and its opposite, "enlightement" by our own "overcoming" is godliness.

But ignorance is not the Biblical original state, nor is it a sin, nor did God cast us into ignorance; and according to the Biblical God, he does not have to "see how" anything happens...He knows. And according to the Biblical account, we do not "overcome" anything on our own, but rather are saved by the gracious action of God Himself.

That's quite a different story, if sometimes populated, by the Gnostic writers, with characters of the same name.

[iambiguous]

But to be Godly is not to be like Satan.

Satan...

"He is traditionally held to have rebelled against God in an attempt to become equal to God himself. He is depicted as a fallen angel, who was expelled from Heaven at the beginning of time, before God created the material world, and is in constant opposition to God"?" wiki

Can you believe that?! Or, perhaps, more to point: https://harvest.org/know-god-article/th ... al-to-god/

Some "opposition", right?

Could or could not God squash Satan like a bug? Or, just as Judas was necessary to bring Jesus to the cross and to the resurrection, Satan is necessary as a crucial explanation for evil in a world where God is said to be loving just and merciful.

Start here for the party line: https://www.google.com/search?q=why+doe ... s-wiz-serp

[nemos]

Where is this "lord," who rules Gehenna or the Valley of Hinnom?

If I'm not mistaken, then in the hearts of pious people, or in that place where people's fear hides. After all, if there were no fear, who would seek refuge in God?

[bahman]

Let's say Godly instead of holy?

Okay. But to be Godly is not to be like Satan.

I didn't say so. By the way, do you hate Satan?

Yes, God's plan was to put us in a state of ignorance and see how we overcome it.

The Gnostics think that "ignorance" is a kind of original sin, and its opposite, "enlightement" by our own "overcoming" is godliness.

I don't believe in the concept of original sin. I think we chose to come to this world. Why? Because it is just not moral to put humans in such a condition unless they deliberately wanted this.

But ignorance is not the Biblical original state, nor is it a sin, nor did God cast us into ignorance; and according to the Biblical God, he does not have to "see how" anything happens...He knows. And according to the Biblical account, we do not "overcome" anything on our own, but rather are saved by the gracious action of God Himself.

I think we can save ourselves by trying hard to find the truth and act properly. Honestly, you are talking about God's grace while people are slaughtering each other on Earth.

[Immanuel Can]

Where is this "lord," who rules Gehenna or the Valley of Hinnom?

If I'm not mistaken,...

It would seem you are. There's no such entity. So your question didn't make any sense.

[Immanuel Can]

Let's say Godly instead of holy?

Okay. But to be Godly is not to be like Satan.

I didn't say so. By the way, do you hate Satan?

Why do you hate Hitler?

I think we chose to come to this world.

You think you remember such a time?

I think we can save ourselves by trying hard to find the truth and act properly.

Well, what do you do with Ephesians 2:8-9? What do you do with Titus 3:5?

[bahman]

Okay. But to be Godly is not to be like Satan.

I didn't say so. By the way, do you hate Satan?

Why do you hate Hitler?

No, in fact, I love him. He was just mistaken though. How about you? Do you love Satan?

I think we chose to come to this world.

You think you remember such a time?

I told you about the vision I have after thinking that life is not fair on Earth so we cannot be here as a result of punishment by a lovely God!

I think we can save ourselves by trying hard to find the truth and act properly.

Well, what do you do with Ephesians 2:8-9? What do you do with Titus 3:5?

I don't believe in the Bible. I don't think that those verses are valid. Why? Because we have to show that we are worth something and that is not possible without our hard work!

[iambiguous]

Why do you hate Hitler?

Come on, asking a mere mortal this question is hardly the same as, say, asking the Christian God? God, after all, is omnipotent. Hitler was able to provoke a conflict that resulted in the estimated deaths of between 35,000,000 and 60,000,000 men, women and children. And then the Final Solution...given that Jesus Christ Himself was a Jew:

"Of course, Jesus was a Jew. He was born of a Jewish mother, in Galilee, a Jewish part of the world. All of his friends, associates, colleagues, disciples, all of them were Jews. He regularly worshipped in Jewish communal worship, what we call synagogues." PBS

Sure, some argue "mysterious ways". But others argue that, if He does in fact exist, He is in fact nothing less than a moral monster. Or, perhaps, back to Harold Kushner?

Me?

Well, given my own rooted existentially in dasein moral and political prejudices, "I" hated him. On the other hand, where is that crucial argument from philosophers establishing that, deontologically, all rational and virtuous men and women are obligated to hate him?

[Immanuel Can]

Do you love Satan?

Do you love cancer, AIDS, and anthrax?

I think we can save ourselves by trying hard to find the truth and act properly.

Well, what do you do with Ephesians 2:8-9? What do you do with Titus 3:5?

I don't believe in the Bible.

Well, that's a choice.

[iambiguous]

Do you love cancer, AIDS, and anthrax?

Again, from my own frame of mind, this is nothing short of being profoundly ironic.

Was it or was it not the Christian God [if He does exist] who brought into existence cancer cells, the AIDS virus and anthrax bacteria?

Perhaps not out of love though?

[nemos]

It would seem you are. There's no such entity. So your question didn't make any sense.

It seems that you, for God's sake, have completely forgotten about people. Unattractive human figures spoil the enjoyment of divine beauty?