The USA and Israel

[Immanuel Can]

That is the duty of a civil nation, Israel in other words, to be very welcoming to cease fire and peace.

And is there any duty of a civil nation to make sure, first, that its citizens are not raped, massacred, rocketed, and so on? And what is the duty of the supposedly "civil" nations of the onlooking world, who seem determined to expose Israel to destruction, and only too happy to allow Hamas to continue?

[bahman]

That is the duty of a civil nation, Israel in other words, to be very welcoming to cease fire and peace.

And is there any duty of a civil nation to make sure, first, that its citizens are not raped, massacred, rocketed, and so on? And what is the duty of the supposedly "civil" nations of the onlooking world, who seem determined to expose Israel to destruction, and only too happy to allow Hamas to continue?

Protecting your nation comes with defending your nation instead of destroying another one. Moreover, a civil nation has to be open to dialog.

[Immanuel Can]

Israel and Palestine.

You don't have pick a side.

You can be horrified at the atrocities visited by either on the other without climbing aboard a bandwagon.

True. Very true. There are problems on both sides, for sure.

At the same time, we also don't have to play the "moral equivalency" game, where we imagine that all we have to do in order to be fair, open-minded and balanced is to cut every issue right down the middle. Sometimes, all that does is muddy the waters by creating a false equivalency, one offensive to justice. The division can be 50-50, or 60-40, or 70-30, or even 80-20 or 90-10, or anything in between.

In this case, one side started the thing. One side bombed more. One side won't stop shooting rockets. One side has more tanks. One side butchered and raped civilians. One side issues civilian warnings before blowing things to smithereens. One side is actually genocidal. One kidnaps. One side has historically more territory. One side is a democracy. One side is a one-party dictatorship. One side puts its own people in harm's way, and robs its own citizens, and uses them as human shields...and so on.

That's why a more appropriate moral strategy is to make clear delineations of exactly WHAT each side is responsible for, and HOW each is now responsible to act. And that requires a bit more deliberation, not a mere "what's-the-difference" attitude, obviously.

[Immanuel Can]

...a civil nation has to be open to dialog.

Well, then Hamas is not part of a civil nation, I guess. They don't dialogue for longer than 15 minutes. They shoot rockets, instead.

[bahman]

...a civil nation has to be open to dialog.

Well, then Hamas is not part of a civil nation, I guess. They don't dialogue for longer than 15 minutes. They shoot rockets, instead.

They are not.

[phyllo]

Israel and Palestine.

You don't have pick a side.

You can be horrified at the atrocities visited by either on the other without climbing aboard a bandwagon.

Being horrified doesn't help the people who are going to die today, tomorrow, the next day ...

Pressure needs to be applied to those in a position of power. That means speaking out, particularly in the US, because America has a lot of clout.

[Immanuel Can]

...a civil nation has to be open to dialog.

Well, then Hamas is not part of a civil nation, I guess. They don't dialogue for longer than 15 minutes. They shoot rockets, instead.

They are not.

So...you don't expect Hamas to behave in a civil way...but you expect Israel have to, even while Hamas won't? How does that not amount to asking Israel to commit national suicide?

[bahman]

Well, then Hamas is not part of a civil nation, I guess. They don't dialogue for longer than 15 minutes. They shoot rockets, instead.

They are not.

So...you don't expect Hamas to behave in a civil way...but you expect Israel have to, even while Hamas won't? How does that not amount to asking Israel to commit national suicide?

No, they can defend the properties that belong to them and not Arabs from within their border. No, need to destroy another nation.

[vegetariantaxidermy]

There are some texts in Islam and Judaism that seem to support it.

I don't really get how Christians can take the positions that they do. As I have said several times, the continued support for the attack on Gaza appears to be contrary to Christian teachings.

Nobody's "supporting" the war. What I'm asking is, "What's your plan for letting it end?" And so far, everybody just seems to think it's fine if the Jews stop fighting and let Hamas continue.

What's your option?

I've already said several times that Israel should immediately stop, have a ceasefire and get the hostages back.

This is a tiresome game that you are playing.

It's pretty obvious by now that 'ceasefire' has no meaning for these people except to use it to commit more atrocities.

[Immanuel Can]

No, they can defend the properties that belong to them and not Arabs from within their border.

And the terrorist tunnels? And the rockets? What are they to do with them? Are they supposed to simply wait until an implacable enemy backed by rich Arab nations finds the right combination of means to massacre the lot, as they have declared repeatedly they intend to do? Or should they stop the rockets, root out the terrorist tunnels, recover the hostages, end Hamas...and THEN return to their former borders?

Which way do you want it to go?

[Dubious]

You make the case that the Jew's are pure and blameless,

I don't. This is a "case" I have never made. And I do not think it.

more sinned against than sinning,

However, in the present instance, it seems that this war was indeed both instigated and perpetuated by Hamas, not Israel. So that much is true, in the present case.

"In the present case", I agree; that much is obvious.

[bahman]

No, they can defend the properties that belong to them and not Arabs from within their border.

And the terrorist tunnels? And the rockets? What are they to do with them?

They have Iron Doom so no worry about rockets.

Are they supposed to simply wait until an implacable enemy backed by rich Arab nations finds the right combination of means to massacre the lot, as they have declared repeatedly they intend to do?

That is hypothetical. In fact, the relationship between Arab countries and Israel was improving.

Or should they stop the rockets, root out the terrorist tunnels, recover the hostages, end Hamas...and THEN return to their former borders?

You cannot destroy terrorism by violence since any person who lost a family member becomes a terrorist.

[phyllo]

No, they can defend the properties that belong to them and not Arabs from within their border.

And the terrorist tunnels? And the rockets? What are they to do with them?

They have Iron Doom so no worry about rockets.

Are they supposed to simply wait until an implacable enemy backed by rich Arab nations finds the right combination of means to massacre the lot, as they have declared repeatedly they intend to do?

That is hypothetical. In fact, the relationship between Arab countries and Israel was improving.

Or should they stop the rockets, root out the terrorist tunnels, recover the hostages, end Hamas...and THEN return to their former borders?

You cannot destroy terrorism by violence since any person who lost a family member becomes a terrorist.

Strange that the number of civilian casualties never seems to play a role in the decisions.

[Immanuel Can]

No, they can defend the properties that belong to them and not Arabs from within their border.

And the terrorist tunnels? And the rockets? What are they to do with them?

They have Iron Doom so no worry about rockets.

"Dome," I think you'll find it is. And it's an imperfect system. So long as Hamas can shoot rockets, and especially as they continue to find new means to guide them, Israel remains in deadly peril. No nation should have to live under perpetual fire.

Are they supposed to simply wait until an implacable enemy backed by rich Arab nations finds the right combination of means to massacre the lot, as they have declared repeatedly they intend to do?

That is hypothetical.

That is the declared intention of Hamas, apparently backed by many Palestinians and not a few Arabs as well.

Or should they stop the rockets, root out the terrorist tunnels, recover the hostages, end Hamas...and THEN return to their former borders?

You cannot destroy terrorism by violence since any person who lost a family member becomes a terrorist.

You actually can. And that's the awful thing. You can destroy terrorism by destroying everything, by destroying all of Gaza itself and removing every occupant. And unless you provide some possible safe stopping-point for Israel, the fear is that that is exactly what Hamas will continue to drive them do. After all, Hamas has already demonstrated it cares absolutely nothing for the lives of its own people, and in fact, craves their deaths as martyrs.

[bahman]

And the terrorist tunnels? And the rockets? What are they to do with them?

They have Iron Doom so no worry about rockets.

"Dome," I think you'll find it is. And it's an imperfect system. So long as Hamas can shoot rockets, and especially as they continue to find new means to guide them, Israel remains in deadly peril. No nation should have to live under perpetual fire.

How many Israelis were killed by rockets?

Are they supposed to simply wait until an implacable enemy backed by rich Arab nations finds the right combination of means to massacre the lot, as they have declared repeatedly they intend to do?

That is hypothetical.

That is the declared intention of Hamas, apparently backed by many Palestinians and not a few Arabs as well.

The general trend was in favor of Israel. More Arab countries were signing peace with Israel, including Saudi Arabia.

Or should they stop the rockets, root out the terrorist tunnels, recover the hostages, end Hamas...and THEN return to their former borders?

You cannot destroy terrorism by violence since any person who lost a family member becomes a terrorist.

You actually can. And that's the awful thing. You can destroy terrorism by destroying everything, by destroying all of Gaza itself and removing every occupant. And unless you provide some possible safe stopping-point for Israel, the fear is that that is exactly what Hamas will continue to drive them do. After all, Hamas has already demonstrated it cares absolutely nothing for the lives of its own people, and in fact, craves their deaths as martyrs.

Ok, so you are giving the right to Israel to destroy another nation?