The USA and Israel

[Immanuel Can]

But again the question repeats: why did it happen in the first place; was there some new cause which provoked Hamas into such a cowardly, disgusting, inhuman attack, not upon armies or even the usual civilian centers but upon a defenseless group of mostly young people at a concert! Was there anything even remotely strategic about it?

It seems so. The big goal, of course, was always to keep Syria from signing the Abraham Accords, at the very least. But militarily, there was real potential there.

For one thing, their attack could have been more successful, if the strategy had been better-planned. The expectation was that groups like Hezbollah, from the north, the West Bankers from the inland side, and other Arab nations might have opportunistically jumped in, and the attack from the south would instantly be multiplied. Fear and confusion would spread.

They might have been able to secure a foothold, at least, in southern Israel, and if attacks had come from the other sides of Israel, the IDF would have been severely overloaded, and anything might have been possible. So there could have been a military success, if they terrorists had not been stoned on Captagon and bent of futile gestures of extraordinary cruelty, like raping, burning and kidnapping civilians. But drug-and-rage-addled people are bad strategists, so things fell apart, strategically.

But a backup strategy is exactly what you see: force Israel into a horrible war, and then claim victim status, and count on the Leftist world press to make your cause current again. Make your own people into human shields, and keep them from running from harm's way. Put all your infrastructure under mosques, hospitals, historic sites and such. Store your munitions in kindergartens, and claim that every death is never a terrorist but is always an innocent citizen, and all destruction is evidence of the wanton hatred of Israelis, and make the world your ally.

And not surprisingly, the idiot Leftist world has fallen straight into strategy number 2. All they talk about now is "bad Israel." The extraordinarily horrific massacres are entirely forgotten, and evey Palestian loss is blamed entirely and exclusively on Israel. And nobody's even trying to figure out how to rescue Israel from the "Catch-22" dilemma into which Hamas has put them...it's just easier to blame the Jews, and everybody enjoys doing that anyway. The Leftists hatred of racism was always only mud-puddle deep, obviously.

The strategy was there: it was merely flubbed at first, and had to become the fall-back strategy of claiming victimhood.

[bahman]

Solution? Elect a wise leader as a wise leader never starts a war. People choose unwise leaders. Why? Because they are unwise as well. Proper education is what we need.

Well, the Palestinians chose Hamas. Apparently, the things Hamas has precipitated on the Palestinians has only increased their support for Hamas, according to phyllo. What "educational" solution would you propose for them?

To learn that violence brings violence.

[Immanuel Can]

Solution? Elect a wise leader as a wise leader never starts a war. People choose unwise leaders. Why? Because they are unwise as well. Proper education is what we need.

Well, the Palestinians chose Hamas. Apparently, the things Hamas has precipitated on the Palestinians has only increased their support for Hamas, according to phyllo. What "educational" solution would you propose for them?

To learn that violence brings violence.

How do you suggest we teach Hamas that?

[bahman]

Well, the Palestinians chose Hamas. Apparently, the things Hamas has precipitated on the Palestinians has only increased their support for Hamas, according to phyllo. What "educational" solution would you propose for them?

To learn that violence brings violence.

How do you suggest we teach Hamas that?

They suffer from the loss of family members, neighbors, etc. Sure without a war, there would be no loss, no death,...

[Immanuel Can]

To learn that violence brings violence.

How do you suggest we teach Hamas that?

They suffer from the loss of family members, neighbors, etc. Sure without a war, there would be no loss, no death,...

Well, maybe they'll learn, then. I'm not optimistic they will, but if you're right, they're certainly getting "the lesson" you prescribe, right now.

[Dubious]

The expectation was that groups like Hezbollah, from the north, the West Bankers from the inland side, and other Arab nations might have opportunistically jumped in, and the attack from the south would instantly be multiplied. Fear and confusion would spread.
They might have been able to secure a foothold, at least, in southern Israel, and if attacks had come from the other sides of Israel, the IDF would have been severely overloaded, and anything might have been possible. So there could have been a military success, if they terrorists had not been stoned on Captagon and bent of futile gestures of extraordinary cruelty, like raping, burning and kidnapping civilians. But drug-and-rage-addled people are bad strategists, so things fell apart, strategically.

If as described, that would have been an extremely stupid, incompetent strategy. The more geopolitically adept Arab nations would have known in advance that if Israel, subject exclusively to its own defenses were ever close to losing, Americans and their military would have entered the fray before any defeat were imminent. For those Arab nations involved that means game over because they know very well that the U.S., regardless of any discrepancies it may have with Israel, would never allow it to lose. In that respect, Israel is a virtual territory protected by the U.S. as any of its territories would be.

That being said - rightly or wrongly - the danger of Ukraine losing to Russia is of far greater consequence for the world than all the stupid shit going on in the ME now. But because Ukraine is not endowed with a biblical HOLY LAND aura, it seems doomed to fail the priority test and all the mucho billions invested by the NATO countries will be for naught. The West is stupid enough to allow it!

But a backup strategy is exactly what you see: force Israel into a horrible war, and then claim victim status, and count on the Leftist world press to make your cause current again. Make your own people into human shields, and keep them from running from harm's way. Put all your infrastructure under mosques, hospitals, historic sites and such. Store your munitions in kindergartens, and claim that every death is never a terrorist but is always an innocent citizen, and all destruction is evidence of the wanton hatred of Israelis, and make the world your ally.

As you may have noticed from my post, this is not unlike my view. It seems to be a standard strategy of Hamas and others of their ilk...make yourself pitiable and everyone will pity you.

But to set the record straight, no matter how much on the side of Israel you are being a bible nut, their sins against the Palestinians from the very beginning are both plentiful and extreme as some of the more honest Israeli historians themselves testify to.

This was never a one-way street where only ONE is to be condemned for atrocities!

[Immanuel Can]

As you may have noticed from my post, this is not unlike my view. It seems to be a standard strategy of Hamas and others of their ilk...make yourself pitiable and everyone will pity you.

The irony is that nobody actually DOES pity the Palestinians. What they do, is hate the Jews. In that equation, Palestinians are just convenient cannon-fodder, to be used up at will in aid of making Israel miserable, endangered, unpopular and stressed. Why else would Iran employ Hamas and the Houthis, instead of fighting Israel themselves? Why do Arab nations refuse to accept Palestinian refugees? Why does Egypt lock the border, even when Palestinian civilians are trying to flee war? And why, when Palestinians die in wars in places like Yemen, does the world not care one fig? Heck, why does Hamas itself not worry about putting munitions underneath civilian areas, or forcing civilians to serve as their human shields? The irony, it seems, is that even the Palestinians don't seem to care about Palestinians.

I do feel sorry for them. But not sympathetic for their attitude. Much of their misery is caused by their own bad choices, and their refusal even to consider a two-state solution. But surely, allowing Israel some space to exist is the very least concession they could possibly make...and it seems they'd rather burn themselves up on hating Jews instead.

[Dubious]

But surely, allowing Israel some space to exist is the very least concession they could possibly make...and it seems they'd rather burn themselves up on hating Jews instead.

This isn't exactly right either. The Jews, especially the highly orthodox type, have very much a 'lebensraum" mentality by their self-granted rights into other people's territory, condemned by both the UN and the international community.

You make the case that the Jew's are pure and blameless, more sinned against than sinning, while the Palestinians are responsible for all the evil.

Unfortunately, nothing in politics or human affairs has ever been that simple. When one adjusts to the Realpolitik of the situation, the Palestinians aren't the only devils screwing-up the ME!

The irony, it seems, is that even the Palestinians don't seem to care about Palestinians.

It does seem that way in how they allow their own people to be slaughtered.

[Age]

As you may have noticed from my post, this is not unlike my view. It seems to be a standard strategy of Hamas and others of their ilk...make yourself pitiable and everyone will pity you.

The irony is that nobody actually DOES pity the Palestinians. What they do, is hate the Jews.

Have you ever considered that actually people do not hate the so-called "jews", but what they actually HATE is the attitude and misbehavior some "jewish" people have and are doing to human beings, and especially children, in "gaza"?

Or, have you not considered this Fact, previously?

How any adult human being could even begin to try to justify the killing of human beings and children in "gaza" is beyond me.

And if absolutely anyone even tries to begin with, well it is revenge or retribution for what some people did to the "jewish" people, then those who do will just have to accept that what is being done to the "jewish" people was for revenge or retribution for what some "jewish" people did to them.

Exactly like what is going to come at "american" people for what some of them did after 11 September 2001 in other countries and to other people.

It was like the people, back in the olden days when this was being written, were beyond absolute stupidity.

In that equation, Palestinians are just convenient cannon-fodder, to be used up at will in aid of making Israel miserable, endangered, unpopular and stressed. Why else would Iran employ Hamas and the Houthis, instead of fighting Israel themselves?

One could also ask, Why did "america" or "england" house, and employ,"jewish" people, instead of fighting for "arab" land themselves?

Just maybe, they did not want to get themselves killed. So, just maybe, "iran" have been and are using "palestinian" people, just like "england" and/or "america" have been and are using "jewish" people. Obviously why use your own people when you can be using other people to do your dirty work, and killing for you.

Why do Arab nations refuse to accept Palestinian refugees?

Why do people from all nations not just stop "jewish" people from killing "palastinians"?
Why are "jewish" people allowed to occupy lands' and oppress another group of human beings?
Why are "arab" nations expected to rescue/help a group of human beings, including children, who are being absolutely obliterated from the face of the earth?
Why did "immanuel can" makes its question about only "Arab" nations helping these human beings?

There are so many questions that could be looked at and answered here. But doing so just helps one from not stopping what is obviously absolutely horrific and totally against every natural fiber of what it is to being a human being.

Why does Egypt lock the border, even when Palestinian civilians are trying to flee war?

This here could not be more absurd and cruel even if you wanted it to be "immanuel can".

you are here looking at why another country does not allow a group of human beings into a bordered off section of land, while completely disregarding the fact that a group of human beings, including children, are being target with weapons, of mass destruction, to wipe them from the earth, by another country.

Or, maybe you think that country is justified in obliterating and wiping out those human beings. Is this correct "immanuel can"?

Also, and just out of curiosity, why does "america" not go in and open the border and/or accept "palestinians", who are obviously trying to flee?

Would "america" lock its borders, even when bordering human beings are trying to flee war?

Or, is there just a too obvious answer to this question that this question is just a stupid question, to you?

And why, when Palestinians die in wars in places like Yemen, does the world not care one fig?

Answer this "yourself" "immanuel can", after all you make up a part of 'the world', which obviously does not really care, so-called, 'one fig'.

Let us know when, and if, you ever get around to answering this question.

The True and Right answer, by the way, may well be very enlightening for you also.

Heck, why does Hamas itself not worry about putting munitions underneath civilian areas, or forcing civilians to serve as their human shields?

Are there munitions stored in and under "american" land?

Does "america" force civilians to become soldiers, and thus human shields for the so-called "leaders" and "politicians"?

Oh, and by the way, how much land area, for population, is there in "gaza" compared to the so-called "united states of america".

Also, if munitions were stored in an open area in "gaza", then how long would that last for before people in another country completely obliterated it?

The irony, it seems, is that even the Palestinians don't seem to care about Palestinians.

Did "american" people care enough to consider the consequences that are to occur to them because of what they did in other countries and to other people?

Some would even say it is like even the "americans" did not and do not seem to care about "americans". The only difference here now is that there is no shock.

I do feel sorry for them. But not sympathetic for their attitude. Much of their misery is caused by their own bad choices, and their refusal even to consider a two-state solution.

So, here we have another prime example of one who believes, absolutely, in 'colonialism' and that whenever a country is occupied, and people are being oppressed, then those people should and are expected to just 'lay down' and do and follow whatever they are told to do and are expected to do.

But the True irony here is if the country that this one is living in was invaded, or even if invasion was thought of or even just imagined that it might occur, then this one would believe, absolutely, that it would have absolutely every right to do whatever it took to stop the invading party.

The amount of contradiction and hypocrisy here is absolutely blinding.

What was very clear among adult human beings in the days when this was being written was that the ones who most hated the human beings who 'they', themselves, had invaded, colonized, occupied, and/or oppressed were also the exact same ones who would argue the most strongest for murdering and killing absolutely any so-called 'outsider' who even just thought about invading and/or changing their way of 'being'.

But the strangest thing about all of this is that these same people were the slowest and blindest to see and recognize this Fact.

But surely, allowing Israel some space to exist is the very least concession they could possibly make...and it seems they'd rather burn themselves up on hating Jews instead.

1. Have you ever heard of a "jewish" person saying that they hate "palestinians" and/or that "palestinians" should not be allowed to live in a particular area?

2. Have you never seen nor recognized that "Jewish" people are continually taking lands, which "palestinians" used to live and making less and less space for them?

3. What can be clearly seen here is another prime example of 'confirmation bias' and of just how much beliefs effect one's ability to be able to see fully, clearly, and properly.

[Age]

But surely, allowing Israel some space to exist is the very least concession they could possibly make...and it seems they'd rather burn themselves up on hating Jews instead.

This isn't exactly right either. The Jews, especially the highly orthodox type, have very much a 'lebensraum" mentality by their self-granted rights into other people's territory, condemned by both the UN and the international community.

You make the case that the Jew's are pure and blameless, more sinned against than sinning, while the Palestinians are responsible for all the evil.

This is just because so-called "christians" like "immanuel can" have been taught to judge and/or hate "muslims" more than "jewish" people.

Unfortunately, nothing in politics or human affairs has ever been that simple. When one adjusts to the Realpolitik of the situation, the Palestinians aren't the only devils screwing-up the ME!

The irony, it seems, is that even the Palestinians don't seem to care about Palestinians.

It does seem that way in how they allow their own people to be slaughtered.

How are "palestinians" allowing their so-called 'own people' to be slaughtered, exactly?

[Age]

Well, the Palestinians chose Hamas. Apparently, the things Hamas has precipitated on the Palestinians has only increased their support for Hamas, according to phyllo. What "educational" solution would you propose for them?

To learn that violence brings violence.

How do you suggest we teach Hamas that?

But how can we teach, for example, "americans" this?

you, for one, "immanuel can" are showing and proving that some people just cannot be shown and taught somethings right?

[Age]

How do you suggest we teach Hamas that?

They suffer from the loss of family members, neighbors, etc. Sure without a war, there would be no loss, no death,...

Well, maybe they'll learn, then. I'm not optimistic they will, but if you're right, they're certainly getting "the lesson" you prescribe, right now.

Just like "western societies" certainly will get 'the lesson' that they deserve also.

[Age]

The expectation was that groups like Hezbollah, from the north, the West Bankers from the inland side, and other Arab nations might have opportunistically jumped in, and the attack from the south would instantly be multiplied. Fear and confusion would spread.
They might have been able to secure a foothold, at least, in southern Israel, and if attacks had come from the other sides of Israel, the IDF would have been severely overloaded, and anything might have been possible. So there could have been a military success, if they terrorists had not been stoned on Captagon and bent of futile gestures of extraordinary cruelty, like raping, burning and kidnapping civilians. But drug-and-rage-addled people are bad strategists, so things fell apart, strategically.

If as described, that would have been an extremely stupid, incompetent strategy. The more geopolitically adept Arab nations would have known in advance that if Israel, subject exclusively to its own defenses were ever close to losing, Americans and their military would have entered the fray before any defeat were imminent. For those Arab nations involved that means game over because they know very well that the U.S., regardless of any discrepancies it may have with Israel, would never allow it to lose. In that respect, Israel is a virtual territory protected by the U.S. as any of its territories would be.

1. Why would "america" supposedly never allow "israel" to lose? What has "israel" got that "america" is so protective of?

2. "america" could not even stop one tiny little fraction in just one "arab" country, that being the "taliban" in "afghanistan", and even after many, many years "america" just had to give up and leave, or run away. So, what hope would "america" have against many, many "arab" countries if they stuck together to help another one?

That being said - rightly or wrongly - the danger of Ukraine losing to Russia is of far greater consequence for the world than all the stupid shit going on in the ME now. But because Ukraine is not endowed with a biblical HOLY LAND aura, it seems doomed to fail the priority test and all the mucho billions invested by the NATO countries will be for naught. The West is stupid enough to allow it!

But a backup strategy is exactly what you see: force Israel into a horrible war, and then claim victim status, and count on the Leftist world press to make your cause current again. Make your own people into human shields, and keep them from running from harm's way. Put all your infrastructure under mosques, hospitals, historic sites and such. Store your munitions in kindergartens, and claim that every death is never a terrorist but is always an innocent citizen, and all destruction is evidence of the wanton hatred of Israelis, and make the world your ally.

As you may have noticed from my post, this is not unlike my view. It seems to be a standard strategy of Hamas and others of their ilk...make yourself pitiable and everyone will pity you.

Speaking from one who has never heard a word from an "hamas", and very, very few words from a "palestinian", (this is because of the way so-called 'news' is reported), they have not come across as so-called 'pitiable'. To me, the reason why the "palestinians" are being pitied by some people more so than the "israel" or "jewish" people are is because of what the "israel" or "jewish" people have been doing and are actually doing to the "palestinian" people.

But to set the record straight, no matter how much on the side of Israel you are being a bible nut, their sins against the Palestinians from the very beginning are both plentiful and extreme as some of the more honest Israeli historians themselves testify to.

This was never a one-way street where only ONE is to be condemned for atrocities!

VERY, VERY True.

[Age]

As you may have noticed from my post, this is not unlike my view. It seems to be a standard strategy of Hamas and others of their ilk...make yourself pitiable and everyone will pity you.

The irony is that nobody actually DOES pity the Palestinians. What they do, is hate the Jews.

I do not think you could come across as more one sided here "immanuel can".

And, spreading blatant obvious Falsehoods is never going to help you here.

In that equation, Palestinians are just convenient cannon-fodder, to be used up at will in aid of making Israel miserable, endangered, unpopular and stressed. Why else would Iran employ Hamas and the Houthis, instead of fighting Israel themselves? Why do Arab nations refuse to accept Palestinian refugees? Why does Egypt lock the border, even when Palestinian civilians are trying to flee war? And why, when Palestinians die in wars in places like Yemen, does the world not care one fig? Heck, why does Hamas itself not worry about putting munitions underneath civilian areas, or forcing civilians to serve as their human shields? The irony, it seems, is that even the Palestinians don't seem to care about Palestinians.

I do feel sorry for them. But not sympathetic for their attitude. Much of their misery is caused by their own bad choices, and their refusal even to consider a two-state solution. But surely, allowing Israel some space to exist is the very least concession they could possibly make...and it seems they'd rather burn themselves up on hating Jews instead.

[Immanuel Can]

You make the case that the Jew's are pure and blameless,

I don't. This is a "case" I have never made. And I do not think it.

more sinned against than sinning,

However, in the present instance, it seems that this war was indeed both instigated and perpetuated by Hamas, not Israel. So that much is true, in the present case.