The USA and Israel

[Immanuel Can]

I am beginning to form the view that Israel does not have the right to exist in its present form.

Good news for you: nothing stays "in its present form." That's not the question. The question is twofold: does Israel have a right to exist at all, and do Jews have a right to be alive?

If you answer "No" to either, then you're just a bad person. Nothing else can be said.

[accelafine]

Then we have the monumental ignorance of Vegetarian Taxidermy now going under the new moniker "accelafine", who mysteriously jouned the same moment that VT was banned. Her ignorance was of the fact that Netanyahu has been happliy funding Hamas for some time.

These people are not arguing from the facts, but just spewing their prejudice.

It was a pre-emptive name change, because VT posted up to the 14th and accelafine started on the 4th. Not saying your wrong, but there's overlap. How does one find out someone is banned?

I think VT had had a previous warning and so preemepted her ban since, I image, she found it impossible to act reasonably?

I do not think that she gives a fart about Israel or Gaza, but it's a negative response to anything she finds on the Forum that she considers "woke". Its some sort of obsession.

You seem awfully confident in your claims. It's interesting that you find it so hard to believe that anyone could give a 'fart' about the torture of children. That says everything anyone needs to know about you and your motives. It's only about politics with you and your ilk. There's a word for that: sociopathy.

[accelafine]

If this was 1939, then the 'philosophers' in these 'philosophical discussions' would be arguing 'for' or 'against' gassing all the Jews. I mean, these things requre 'debate' and 'majority agreement' because genocide is something that should be decided on what the majority 'thinks'.

[Walker]

I've heard that if this were 1939, the NY Times would be sympathetic to Hitler in tone, reported stories, and holocaust denial. The 1939 NY Times archived stories are available online to verify that, but I don't subscribe.

[Alexis Jacobi]

Good news for you: nothing stays "in its present form." That's not the question. The question is twofold: does Israel have a right to exist at all, and do Jews have a right to be alive?

If the Israeli state continues to act as it has, since it was established, and carrying out those atrocities clearly explained by Miko Peled — no, it does not have a right to exist in its present form.

Technically then, according to the logic enunciated, the Palestinian people have a right and a necessary obligation to attempt to bring down that state. That is, if one establishes that their oppression is real. The recent evidence of a massacre of the Gazan scale conducted by that state is sufficient for Palestinians and surrounding nations to oppose such a state in their midst. That the US backs the Israeli state in its present form, and supports its crimes, also implicates the US in those crimes. This much has never been more clear to me.

Israel’s existence — so it seems —has been a net negative for the entire region. Strife, dislocation and extremely consequential wars with upheaval throughout the region, have been Israel’s sole contribution.

If this is so then the world-community must realize this and advocate against Israel.

I cannot see why any state or any people should accept or allow such a state to continue. But more especially those surrounding Israel.

Did Israel at it inception have a ‘right’ to come to exist? Yes, had it chosen a different way of going about it.

Again: it seems to me that the Israeli state will have no choice but to undergo an internal revolution. I predict that this is what will happen.

My issue is not with Jews, and surely they have the same rights as anyone to live, but rather with fundamental tenets expressed in Judaism. Judaism contains in itself everything that does harm to Jews. It is like it carries both valuable jewels and deadly poisons. It sets itself up for rejection and evokes suspicion, loathing and animosity.

This is what I think I have most learned over the last year. I mean on the Christianity thread. Ultimately “the poison” is found in Judaism.

You have demonstrated how these poisons enter into a man, corrupt him, poison his outlook, and determine ranges of choices that I see as negative.

Your contribution as a deranged Christian Zionist fanatic to this entire mess is something I also note. It was never so clear to me as it is now. I find the realization shocking and disturbing.

[mickthinks]

I think human beings have the right to existence, but institutions are more like machines: they should be replaced if they become dangerous and unfit for purpose. South Africa still exists but no one is demanding that white people should be returned to supremacy there. Does Rhodesia still exist? Well, yes—but in that case even the name has changed.

[accelafine]

Go live there then. I've heard those countries are a delight. So delightful that people are leaving them in droves to spread the word to the rest of the world about how delightful they are.

[accelafine]

The ''Palestinian cause'' has been a godsend to Jew-haters everywhere. It took a while to catch on (the woke are notoriously thick), but it's taken hold in a way that they could only have dreamed about. The only difference between now and Nazi Germany is that back then it was 'woke' to openly hate Jews. It's no longer fashionable to openly admit to hating anyone, so it has to be hidden behind a facade of 'caring' about a faux cause.
Fascinating from a psychological perspective but abhorrent and nauseating at the same time.
The woke have been bored for a while, chomping at the bit for a 'cause' ever since South Africa was crossed off their virtue-signalling list. Their joy is palpable.

[Immanuel Can]

Good news for you: nothing stays "in its present form." That's not the question. The question is twofold: does Israel have a right to exist at all, and do Jews have a right to be alive?

...the Palestinian people have a right and a necessary obligation to attempt to bring down that state.

"From the river to the sea," you mean?

Congratulations. You're an advocate of genocide. Well done.

[iambiguous]

The ''Palestinian cause'' has been a godsend to Jew-haters everywhere. It took a while to catch on (the woke are notoriously thick), but it's taken hold in a way that they could only have dreamed about. The only difference between now and Nazi Germany is that back then it was 'woke' to openly hate Jews. It's no longer fashionable to openly admit to hating anyone, so it has to be hidden behind a facade of 'caring' about a faux cause.
Fascinating from a psychological perspective but abhorrent and nauseating at the same time.
The woke have been bored for a while, chomping at the bit for a 'cause' ever since they South Africa became whatever it is today. Their joy is palpable.

The "woke" folk again.

As though those on both sides of the conflict there don't insist that you are only really "awake" if you share their own political and theological prejudices. Again, the real irony here is that both sides worship the same God!!

One rendition of woke: https://youtu.be/zE8GCX1w3ys?si=Q7et0JAV01lcFbQl

Though I'm sure the Zionists have their own set of historical facts as well.

The Nazis of course sustained the mother of all Woke agendas. On the other hand, some argue that in regard to the Palestinians, there are members of the current Israeli government who are no less committed to their own rendition of the "final solution". Just as Hamas is in regard to the Jews.

Then back to how both are "woke" in regard to the God of Abraham.

Really, why doesn't that part ever come up in the mainstream media? That and the part I focus in on: dasein.

[Alexis Jacobi]

"From the river to the sea," you mean?

Congratulations. You're an advocate of genocide. Well done.

AJ: …bring down that state.

Does not imply genocide though it likely implies or could imply military struggle. Changing a government ot causing a collapse is not ‘genocide’.

I am not an advocate for anything except understanding. It is a different type of project than an advocation of action.

I propose that it is likely that the Israeli state will have to undergo a revolution. I cannot see how the present situation (government, régime) can continue. But I also cannot see how it could change.

None of this — none — will end up advantageous to Israel.

The future is a cipher. I cannot make out where this is going.

[Gary Childress]

And I must say, if you can't be more thoughtful and critical, should you be chiming in?

He has every right to chime in. If you read a few posts back, he lost someone he knew who was a journalist in the fighting.

I didn't.

Do you believe it? Why?

Well, I don't see why he would lie about someone who was a journalist that he knew being killed. His acquaintance apparently received death threats from Israelis prior (at least according to Sculptor). In any case, it's such a mess over there right now. I will hold to the statement that if things in Gaza before the outbreak of shooting were as bad as I've seen in reports, then Israel or the International community would do well after this conflict to make a commitment to improving people's lives there or make some sort of attempt at reconciliation. Otherwise, this is just going to continue.

Gaza was in horrible shape before the attack.

Not so horrible, actually, except for being ruled brutally by Hamas. They had their territory and their independence, short of doing things like shooting rockets and slitting throats. Lots of people in the world have had it a lot worse.

Well not having adequate access to clean water is pretty bad. I don't think I would use the fact that other people in the world also have that problem as a justification for the conditions in Gaza. Although, perhaps it is true that Hamas has played a large role in maintaining those conditions if they have devoted all their aid to weaponry for wiping Israel off the map instead of using it for humanitarian purposes to help the people they 'govern'.

One thing I am curious about is why the Netanyahu government supported Hamas. It seems to be a fact as I've seen it discussed in a few reputable sources including an Israeli news outlet (which surely wouldn't be posting anti-Israeli propaganda).

https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years ... our-faces/

[accelafine]

He has every right to chime in. If you read a few posts back, he lost someone he knew who was a journalist in the fighting.

I didn't.

Do you believe it? Why?

Well, I don't see why he would lie about someone who was a journalist that he knew being killed. His acquaintance apparently received death threats from Israelis prior (at least according to Sculptor). In any case, it's such a mess over there right now. I will hold to the statement that if things in Gaza before the outbreak of shooting were as bad as I've seen in reports, then Israel or the International community would do well after this conflict to make a commitment to improving people's lives there or make some sort of attempt at reconciliation. Otherwise, this is just going to continue.

Gaza was in horrible shape before the attack.

Not so horrible, actually, except for being ruled brutally by Hamas. They had their territory and their independence, short of doing things like shooting rockets and slitting throats. Lots of people in the world have had it a lot worse.

Well not having adequate access to clean water is pretty bad. I don't think I would use the fact that other people in the world also have that problem as a justification for the conditions in Gaza. Although, perhaps it is true that Hamas has played a large role in maintaining those conditions if they have devoted all their aid to weaponry for wiping Israel off the map instead of using it for humanitarian purposes to help the people they 'govern'.

One thing I am curious about is why the Netanyahu government supported Hamas. It seems to be a fact as I've seen it discussed in a few reputable sources including an Israeli news outlet (which surely wouldn't be posting anti-Israeli propaganda).

https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years ... our-faces/

''according to skulptor''. Must be true then

[accelafine]

But what does any of this have to do with the burning alive of children? Raping and parading of young women? Beheading of babies?
WTF is wrong with you imbeciles? If you don't care then fuck off and have a political discussion on a political forum.

[Age]

I am beginning to form the view that Israel does not have the right to exist in its present form.

Good news for you: nothing stays "in its present form." That's not the question. The question is twofold: does Israel have a right to exist at all, and do Jews have a right to be alive?

If you answer "No" to either, then you're just a bad person. Nothing else can be said.

A BETTER QUESTION might be, Do "muslims", "palestinians", and/or "Hamas" have a right to be alive "immanuel can"?

Now, OF COURSE, 'you' WILL NOT ANSWER 'this' QUESTION, BECAUSE OF the CONTRADICTION, PREDICAMENT, and/or CONSEQUENCES that BY DOING SO would ENTAIL, or FOLLOW.