Is morality objective or subjective?

Should you think about your duty, or about the consequences of your actions? Or should you concentrate on becoming a good person?

Moderators: AMod, iMod

User avatar
Immanuel Can
Posts: 27612
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2013 4:42 pm

Re: Is morality objective or subjective?

Post by Immanuel Can »

Harbal wrote: Fri Dec 01, 2023 11:56 am It seems to me that it actually was about a new society, and about freedom, and I wouldn't even call it a sexual revolution; I think it was just part of a more general questioning of societal constraints. I would also like to think it was a kick up the arse for religious authority, and its stifling, outdated attitudes.
And how has that worked out? How would you characterize the state of interpersonal relations in the present age? Free? New? Better?

Is everybody happier? Healthier? Is society more stable? Are families more unified? Are children doing well? How would you put it?
User avatar
Immanuel Can
Posts: 27612
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2013 4:42 pm

Re: Is morality objective or subjective?

Post by Immanuel Can »

Alexis Jacobi wrote: Fri Dec 01, 2023 1:09 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Thu Nov 30, 2023 11:59 pmDo you consider that a reasonable test? Has Jesus Christ promised you to manifest upon request, especially for the satisfaction of a skeptic?
The entire premise of a god that would materialize to anyone is part of a rather odd and archaic way of perceiving reality. I proposed it...
Stop there.

Yes, you did.

So why did you, since it wasn't a reasonable one, and you knew that, apparently? :shock:
User avatar
Immanuel Can
Posts: 27612
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2013 4:42 pm

Re: Is morality objective or subjective?

Post by Immanuel Can »

Gary Childress wrote: Fri Dec 01, 2023 1:20 pm What was remarkably better about the 1950s than today?
Well, not in all ways was it better, of course. In some ways, it was a more homogeneous culture, though still pretty multicultural: but the majority of people were from countries and places where a basic, relatively agreed-upon code of morality was applied to civil behaviour. This is what John Dewey called "the Judeo-Christian consensus," a sort of moral position that ideologies as widely spaced as the Protestants, Catholics, Orthodox, Jews, and even most Atheists could agree was how decent behaviour ought to be conducted.

We've lost that now -- not only because immigration has changed, and we're now exposed to cultures that believe in things like slavery, child-abuse and totalitarian governance which fall considerably outside the old consensus, but because a series of revolutions in our own social behaviour have increasingly eroded those old common convictions and left us with practically none upon which we all agree.

So the way things were better was certainly not absolute; but we were less far down the road of moral decay than we now are, and more in agreement about values. And at that point, it was still possible for even secular persons to dream that morality could just turn out to be one thing for everybody. This made all kinds of things easier, from orienting a justice system to regulating professions to public schooling. But we're considerably past all that now, as you can see. All those areas today are a cacophony of conflicting agendas.
User avatar
Immanuel Can
Posts: 27612
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2013 4:42 pm

Re: Is morality objective or subjective?

Post by Immanuel Can »

Lacewing wrote: Fri Dec 01, 2023 5:28 pm Love doesn't require contracts.
How's that working out for women these days?
User avatar
Alexis Jacobi
Posts: 8301
Joined: Tue Oct 26, 2021 3:00 am

Re: Is morality objective or subjective?

Post by Alexis Jacobi »

Lacewing wrote: Fri Dec 01, 2023 7:06 pmI think that era (the sixties) was an immensely beneficial and transformative BURST of awareness and love in response to the rigid conventional culture, war, and stunted human evolvement.
I have thought the same thing. Or put differently I have responded to the messages as I think most do or as many do anyway. My point is that the messages in that music (especially the two I included) are Christian Universalism at a quintessential level. For this reason I point out that the messages and the emotions that empower them are essentially Christian expressions.

But when looked at from a different perspective, and because the way the messages, the ideology, and the metaphysics in them do not allow any contradiction, I also find them imperious. It is as if those who hold to those visions are saying -- and here I will include a darker message -- "every knee shall bow" (to our concept of what is right and good).

Those who sung these songs did so as *God's own righteous children* and the sentiments they worked with are connected, quite deeply, to American revivalism and the Great Awakening:
The Great Awakening was a series of religious revivals in American Christian history. Historians and theologians identify three, or sometimes four, waves of increased religious enthusiasm between the early 18th century and the late 20th century. Each of these "Great Awakenings" was characterized by widespread revivals led by evangelical Protestant ministers, a sharp increase of interest in religion, a profound sense of conviction and redemption on the part of those affected, an increase in evangelical church membership, and the formation of new religious movements and denominations.
The influence of these revivals, and the social sentiments of deep progressivism, can be traced in American culture from the Awakening and into the Burned Over District, and from there to numerous evolutions or involutions of the felt doctrines, including into some of the stranger neo-Christian cults that sprung up in California, including Pentecostalism.

As I made an effort to point out, this movement and these movements have a dual aspect: one that is unabashedly progressive, universalist and religious-enthusiastic in tone, attitude and action on one hand. And on the other a darker side is found in its sheer certainty, its absolute certainty, its 'metaphysical conviction' that it is the right thing and the good thing for all humanity.

If you were to respond: "But why would you oppose what is obviously good?" I would then have to explain more about the *dual* aspect, the destruction of hierarchies, and a certain turn against structures of authority which was also a large part of the Sixties Movement and the youth rebellion.

The European New Right (people like Alain de Benoist for one example) construct an oppositional stance to these manifestations of Christian Universalism as they try to construct a more particular traditionalism and conservatism. Something to oppose what they believe, and many believe, is a sort of hyper-liberalism with numerous destructive features.

I try to situate IC within a Christian nostalgia and also within revivalism of a certain flavor and ideological commitment. Though IC is not very self-aware I have noticed that nearly the entirely of his social platform and ideology is in essence progressive.

I am not necessarily taking any particular side. What I am saying is that the emotions and the ideology connected with enthusiasm is very persuasive and when one confronts someone deeply committed to it, and should you oppose, you are defined as backward, retrogressive bad & evil.
User avatar
Alexis Jacobi
Posts: 8301
Joined: Tue Oct 26, 2021 3:00 am

Re: Is morality objective or subjective?

Post by Alexis Jacobi »

Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Dec 01, 2023 7:38 pm
Lacewing wrote: Fri Dec 01, 2023 5:28 pm Love doesn't require contracts.
How's that working out for women these days?
Here is an example of a way to examine IC's social conservatism as both nostalgic longing but also a desire to reground within sane categories.

A man's relationship to a woman, and a woman to a man, very definitely is a contract, and requires a contract. If women were to mate with men and bear their offspring but the man would have no commitment, no sustained responsibility, this would amount in social disaster. But the disaster has come about. The State then has to intervene and raise the children, or hunt down the fathers and force them to pay.

Even the higher sort of love conceived as *agape* -- a Christian term of course -- certainly involves a commitment: to the essence of what is spiritual in the person loved. And fulfilling that role is predicated on so many other essentially moral stances that prefigure it.

It is true that society and culture can be tweaked, and has been tweaked, so that a woman can live independently of men and a man. Yet in truth this seems anatural. In any situation where there is no state to take up the slack, there is greater emphasis on the social contract of marriage with all its concomitant requirements and duties.
User avatar
Immanuel Can
Posts: 27612
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2013 4:42 pm

Re: Is morality objective or subjective?

Post by Immanuel Can »

Alexis Jacobi wrote: Fri Dec 01, 2023 7:57 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Dec 01, 2023 7:38 pm
Lacewing wrote: Fri Dec 01, 2023 5:28 pm Love doesn't require contracts.
How's that working out for women these days?
Here is an example...
I wasn't really asking you. I know you are just going to ramble off into the irrelevant.
User avatar
Alexis Jacobi
Posts: 8301
Joined: Tue Oct 26, 2021 3:00 am

Re: Is morality objective or subjective?

Post by Alexis Jacobi »

Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Dec 01, 2023 7:27 pm
Alexis Jacobi wrote: Fri Dec 01, 2023 1:09 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Thu Nov 30, 2023 11:59 pmDo you consider that a reasonable test? Has Jesus Christ promised you to manifest upon request, especially for the satisfaction of a skeptic?
The entire premise of a god that would materialize to anyone is part of a rather odd and archaic way of perceiving reality. I proposed it...
Stop there.

Yes, you did.

So why did you, since it wasn't a reasonable one, and you knew that, apparently?
Immanuel, you are a sort of brainless idiot [by that I mean someone trapped in religious zealotry] and you never read what I write with much care. Had you done so you would not subsequently ask these asinine questions. I do not have the desire to rephrase here again what I clearly said earlier. And since your will is set not to understand I must leave it at that.

The phrase "Stop there" indicates a false sense that you have any power at all to direct this or any conversation here. You are much less a participant and far more the subject of a larger investigation that goes on in relation to your fanatic religiousness.
User avatar
Alexis Jacobi
Posts: 8301
Joined: Tue Oct 26, 2021 3:00 am

Re: Is morality objective or subjective?

Post by Alexis Jacobi »

Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Dec 01, 2023 8:01 pm I wasn't really asking you. I know you are just going to ramble off into the irrelevant.
I understand that that is how you choose to see things.
User avatar
Harbal
Posts: 10729
Joined: Thu Jun 20, 2013 10:03 pm
Location: Yorkshire
Contact:

Re: Is morality objective or subjective?

Post by Harbal »

Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Dec 01, 2023 7:26 pm
Harbal wrote: Fri Dec 01, 2023 11:56 am It seems to me that it actually was about a new society, and about freedom, and I wouldn't even call it a sexual revolution; I think it was just part of a more general questioning of societal constraints. I would also like to think it was a kick up the arse for religious authority, and its stifling, outdated attitudes.
And how has that worked out? How would you characterize the state of interpersonal relations in the present age? Free? New? Better?
Things seem better to me. I think equal women's rights have played a bigger part in social change than -what you call- the sexual revolution has. Having achieved equal status, women are less likely to find themselves trapped in a miserable marriage with no way out. Not that I'm saying single parent families are a good thing, but better, I think, than two parents who hate the sight of each other.
Is everybody happier? Healthier? Is society more stable? Are families more unified? Are children doing well? How would you put it?
I don't know the answer to that any more than you do. The only difference is that I don't mind admitting it, whereas you will no doubt come up with some Mickey Mouse statistics to support what you would prefer the answer to be. Of course, now that I've said that, you will probably just refer to some statistics, rather than post them, and use phrases like, "well I know you don't want to acknowledge them, but...."
User avatar
Immanuel Can
Posts: 27612
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2013 4:42 pm

Re: Is morality objective or subjective?

Post by Immanuel Can »

Alexis Jacobi wrote: Fri Dec 01, 2023 8:04 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Dec 01, 2023 7:27 pm
Alexis Jacobi wrote: Fri Dec 01, 2023 1:09 pm
The entire premise of a god that would materialize to anyone is part of a rather odd and archaic way of perceiving reality. I proposed it...
Stop there.

Yes, you did.

So why did you, since it wasn't a reasonable one, and you knew that, apparently?
The phrase "Stop there" indicates a false sense that you have any power at all ...
No, just a simple wish for you to stop and think about the actual implications of what you say.

If it's too much to ask, don't feel obligated. 8)
User avatar
Lacewing
Posts: 6722
Joined: Wed Jul 29, 2015 2:25 am

Re: Is morality objective or subjective?

Post by Lacewing »

Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Dec 01, 2023 7:38 pm
Lacewing wrote: Fri Dec 01, 2023 5:28 pm Love doesn't require contracts.
How's that working out for women these days?
Love is not the same as sex. Are you talking about sex?
User avatar
Immanuel Can
Posts: 27612
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2013 4:42 pm

Re: Is morality objective or subjective?

Post by Immanuel Can »

Harbal wrote: Fri Dec 01, 2023 8:21 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Dec 01, 2023 7:26 pm And how has that worked out? How would you characterize the state of interpersonal relations in the present age? Free? New? Better?
Things seem better to me.
Wow. Okay. :shock: That's something I wouldn't find obvious, to put it mildly.
Not that I'm saying single parent families are a good thing, but better, I think, than two parents who hate the sight of each other.
Actually, what the studies show is that children are better off in almost ANY intact biological family, provided there is not actual violence or addiction present. Even an unhappy one is better for children than all the alternatives in the non-intact family spectrum.
Is everybody happier? Healthier? Is society more stable? Are families more unified? Are children doing well? How would you put it?
I don't know the answer to that any more than you do.

I do, actually. I was just wondering what you personally think.
User avatar
Immanuel Can
Posts: 27612
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2013 4:42 pm

Re: Is morality objective or subjective?

Post by Immanuel Can »

Lacewing wrote: Fri Dec 01, 2023 8:56 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Dec 01, 2023 7:38 pm
Lacewing wrote: Fri Dec 01, 2023 5:28 pm Love doesn't require contracts.
How's that working out for women these days?
Love is not the same as sex. Are you talking about sex?
So...you're saying you think that sex requires contracts, but love doesn't? :shock: Or do you just mean that neither sex nor love require commitment?
User avatar
Harbal
Posts: 10729
Joined: Thu Jun 20, 2013 10:03 pm
Location: Yorkshire
Contact:

Re: Is morality objective or subjective?

Post by Harbal »

Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Dec 01, 2023 9:00 pm
Harbal wrote: Fri Dec 01, 2023 8:21 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Dec 01, 2023 7:26 pm And how has that worked out? How would you characterize the state of interpersonal relations in the present age? Free? New? Better?
Things seem better to me.
Wow. Okay. :shock: That's something I wouldn't find obvious, to put it mildly.
Not that I'm saying single parent families are a good thing, but better, I think, than two parents who hate the sight of each other.
Actually, what the studies show is that children are better off in almost ANY intact biological family, provided there is not actual violence or addiction present. Even an unhappy one is better for children than all the alternatives in the non-intact family spectrum.
Well I haven't done any studies, and I have no reason to take any notice of yours.
Immanuel Can wrote: Fri Dec 01, 2023 9:00 pmIs everybody happier? Healthier? Is society more stable? Are families more unified? Are children doing well? How would you put it?
Harbal wrote:I don't know the answer to that any more than you do.
I do, actually.
Yes, I knew you would say you do.
Post Reply