Wonkers and Israel

[Consul]

There is no symmetry of guilt between Hamas and the Israelis, because there is a big difference between the deliberate terrorist mass-murdering of innocent people and the unintentional killing of innocent people as regrettable yet unavoidable "collateral damage" in the context of justified counterterrorist military action. If Hamas hadn't attacked the Israelis, the innocent Palestinians unintentionally killed by the Israeli army would still be alive; so Hamas are ultimately responsible for their death.

I think you meant to say 'avoidable'. It's Hamas that is stopping people from leaving Gaza.

Yes, but I meant to say "unavoidable by the Israeli army given the demographic situation in (the) Gaza (Strip), which is (mis)used by Hamas for their tactical advantage".

[Alexis Jacobi]

I’m “doubling-down” on a previous statement:

Again, and seen from one angle, all Israelis are citizen combatants. They did in fact conquer and occupy Palestinian lands. They did herd hundreds of thousands into refugees camps. You (or anyone) can do impressive triple backward rhetorical flips and offer breathtaking explanatory discourses on the *right* of Jews to that land but none of this actually changes the core reality.

[Sculptor]

Gerald Kaufman basically said it all when it all happened 13 years ago.

SInce then Israel has moved more to the right, and the oppression and abuse of Palestine has accelerated.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FRzL2CUnA7o

[Averroes]

Hamas’ primary interest in the Gaza civilians is to use them for anti-Israel, anti-Jewish propaganda.

Did you know that the religious Orthodox Jews are themselves anti-Israel? In case you might not know, there is an interesting interview of Jewish Rabbi Yisroel Dovid Weiss that I found to be very informative about the situation in Palestine. Here is the link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U2H-F0HVKDY

In that interview he said:

In 1947, 1948, the chief rabbi was Rabbi Dushinsky. This is in the records of the United Nations. In 1947, a declaration before the United Nations, he said, "We furthermore wish to express our definite opposition to a Jewish state in any part of Palestine."
This is the very religious, representing the religious Jewish community, says we don't want a Jewish state and these people are imposters, the one that are doing it.

That interview is very interesting and informative which I recommend to anyone who wants the historical perspective of a practicing Orthodox Jew. For those who don’t have the time to go through the video, I have tried to summarise it in a couple of excerpts of the Rabbi’s words below.


Rabbi Weiss addressed many pertinent issues after a brief introduction of what he represents:

What I'm representing with God's help is the opinion of the very religious Jews around the world including in our courts in Jerusalem, including well throughout Europe and throughout the world basically.

An important issue that Rabbi Weiss addressed was explaining the difference between Judaism and Zionism.

Zionism was created by mostly non-religious Jews. It was a nationalist movement of people who estranged themselves from God, [and] from the Torah. They were non-religious. So you see what the falseness of it. And all the Zionists, they put on a facade of Judaism, they incorporated religion in order that the world should say: “it's a religious thing we have to support them.” The evangelists, the Christians, and the millions support them. Jews who don't know the Torah well, unfortunately, the more non-religious. And they have this emotional playing that we're returning; 2,000 years we're in exile. That's the difference between Judaism and Zionism.
Now so in other words, in short and very concisely, Judaism is subservience to God, Zionism is nationalism, and it's expressly forbidden for us.

The most interesting part is when Rabbi Weiss explains how the Zionist Jewish imposters (his words) started and are continually engaged in genocide and crimes against humanity against the Palestinian people to establish and maintain the pariah and terrorist state of Israel on Palestinian lands:

(…) But Palestine was an inhabited land. The majority were Muslims… So in order for them to create that state, they had to expel, at least in the best case, the Palestinian people. It's against [and] it flies in the face of what our Torah is about because in the Torah it says, "Thou shall not kill, thou shall not steal" (...)

And on top of that, we have to remember that in this 2,000 years of exile that we've suffered so much because we are Jews. The Jews were burnt at the stake. They were tried. They tried to forcefully convert Jews by the Crusades, by the Inquisition. And they were expelled from Spain, from Italy, where did the Jews go?

The Muslim lands took in the Jews. They embraced us in every Muslim land. Iran, wherever you'd like, Palestine was under the Ottoman Empire. They took us in and we flourished in their lands. There was no human rights to protect us, and yet we flourished. It wasn't necessary human rights.

So now for the Zionists to come along and accuse the Muslims of an ingrained hate to Jews or the Palestinian people of an ingrained hate to Jews, how dare they, how repugnant! And to go and turn that on its head and say, “these people wronged us”, all of this is the most criminal part of this…

We have a picture here [showing pictures], even you can see how we used to live together and we babysat each other's children. We lived in total peace.

That is why the very religious [Jews] around the world, we stand in total support. We hurt, we cry with the Palestinians, we are humiliated because the Zionists took our religion, and they're using it as a tool to occupy, to intimidate, to silence other people because if you speak up against them, you're called anti-Semitic. So we the religious communities stay in that opposition.

_______________

I find it to be very interesting that the Rabbi said that many non-religious Jews and Evangelical Christians support the criminal terrorist state of Israel. Having discussed with you before, I don't recall you as a non-religious Jew. However, you seem to be a supporter of the terrorist and pariah state of Israel, may I ask : are you an Evangelical Protestant Christian?

_________________

[Iwannaplato]

Hamas’ primary interest in the Gaza civilians is to use them for anti-Israel, anti-Jewish propaganda.

Did you know that the religious Orthodox Jews are themselves anti-Israel? In case you might not know, there is an interesting interview of Jewish Rabbi Yisroel Dovid Weiss that I found to be very informative about the situation in Palestine. Here is the link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U2H-F0HVKDY

In that interview he said:

In 1947, 1948, the chief rabbi was Rabbi Dushinsky. This is in the records of the United Nations. In 1947, a declaration before the United Nations, he said, "We furthermore wish to express our definite opposition to a Jewish state in any part of Palestine."
This is the very religious, representing the religious Jewish community, says we don't want a Jewish state and these people are imposters, the one that are doing it.

That interview is very interesting and informative which I recommend to anyone who wants the historical perspective of a practicing Orthodox Jew. For those who don’t have the time to go through the video, I have tried to summarise it in a couple of excerpts of the Rabbi’s words below.


Rabbi Weiss addressed many pertinent issues after a brief introduction of what he represents:

What I'm representing with God's help is the opinion of the very religious Jews around the world including in our courts in Jerusalem, including well throughout Europe and throughout the world basically.

An important issue that Rabbi Weiss addressed was explaining the difference between Judaism and Zionism.

Zionism was created by mostly non-religious Jews. It was a nationalist movement of people who estranged themselves from God, [and] from the Torah. They were non-religious. So you see what the falseness of it. And all the Zionists, they put on a facade of Judaism, they incorporated religion in order that the world should say: “it's a religious thing we have to support them.” The evangelists, the Christians, and the millions support them. Jews who don't know the Torah well, unfortunately, the more non-religious. And they have this emotional playing that we're returning; 2,000 years we're in exile. That's the difference between Judaism and Zionism.
Now so in other words, in short and very concisely, Judaism is subservience to God, Zionism is nationalism, and it's expressly forbidden for us.

The most interesting part is when Rabbi Weiss explains how the Zionist Jewish imposters (his words) started and are continually engaged in genocide and crimes against humanity against the Palestinian people to establish and maintain the pariah and terrorist state of Israel on Palestinian lands:

(…) But Palestine was an inhabited land. The majority were Muslims… So in order for them to create that state, they had to expel, at least in the best case, the Palestinian people. It's against [and] it flies in the face of what our Torah is about because in the Torah it says, "Thou shall not kill, thou shall not steal" (...)

And on top of that, we have to remember that in this 2,000 years of exile that we've suffered so much because we are Jews. The Jews were burnt at the stake. They were tried. They tried to forcefully convert Jews by the Crusades, by the Inquisition. And they were expelled from Spain, from Italy, where did the Jews go?

The Muslim lands took in the Jews. They embraced us in every Muslim land. Iran, wherever you'd like, Palestine was under the Ottoman Empire. They took us in and we flourished in their lands. There was no human rights to protect us, and yet we flourished. It wasn't necessary human rights.

So now for the Zionists to come along and accuse the Muslims of an ingrained hate to Jews or the Palestinian people of an ingrained hate to Jews, how dare they, how repugnant! And to go and turn that on its head and say, “these people wronged us”, all of this is the most criminal part of this…

We have a picture here [showing pictures], even you can see how we used to live together and we babysat each other's children. We lived in total peace.

That is why the very religious [Jews] around the world, we stand in total support. We hurt, we cry with the Palestinians, we are humiliated because the Zionists took our religion, and they're using it as a tool to occupy, to intimidate, to silence other people because if you speak up against them, you're called anti-Semitic. So we the religious communities stay in that opposition.

_______________

I find it to be very interesting that the Rabbi said that many non-religious Jews and Evangelical Christians support the criminal terrorist state of Israel. Having discussed with you before, I don't recall you as a non-religious Jew. However, you seem to be a supporter of the terrorist and pariah state of Israel, may I ask : are you an Evangelical Protestant Christian?

_________________

You do realize that nothing you said here addressed what you quoted from his post. Everything in your post here could be correct and what he asserted could also be correct.

[Age]

Are you sure? The root of terrorism is inappropriateness, and it must be known to commit, to pack a debilitating punch.

Are you sure that 'to them' they believe that they are NOT behaving appropriately?

That is the meaning of the sentence you quoted but didn't compose.

So, the biggest source of "terrorism" over the last 60 or so years, up to when this is being written, obviously coming from what is called the "united states of america" you are here saying was known to be 'inappropriate' to the people who caused the wars and thus created the terrorism, right?

Are you aware that what I hear from the very vast majority of the people, in "america", who caused those wars and who committed those terrorist acts/fought in those wars is that what they did was 'appropriate' and NOT 'inappropriate' AT ALL?

[Age]

This recent event, these unfolding events, encompass within them a microcosm of so many of the issues and conflicts besetting the world. The pressure is on to define oneself — morally — in relation to each thorny social question.

So, are 'you', "alexis jacobi", going to START to 'define' and/or 'defend' "yourself" here, morally?

If no, then WHY expect ANY one "else" to do it?

And are 'you' even going to define what ANY of these, supposed and so-called, 'thorny social questions' are here, exactly?

Also, WHY do 'you' CLAIM that there is some so-called 'pressure' here? From who and from where is this alleged 'pressure' coming, EXACTLY?

[Averroes]

You do realize that nothing you said here addressed what you quoted from his post.

I think you missed the part in the quote where he talked about "anti-Israel" and "anti-Jewish" propaganda. My post directly addresses this issue. It might be difficult for you to understand because it requires one to think carefully about what was said. But this is a philosophy forum and it is expected that participants use their intellect and not have everything spoon-fed to them.

Everything in your post here could be correct and what he asserted could also be correct.

Is this what you think?

[Age]

Professor Norman Finkelstein just described the Israeli operation in Gaza as "somewhere between a crime against humanity and genicide under international law", and said Israel's goal appears to be "to ethnically cleanse the northern sector of Gaza and declare it Israeli's new security zone".
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ql9FfYTKt1Q

Terrorist cleansing is not ethnic cleansing.

So, when "palatines" were just so-called 'terrorist cleansing' over the past week or so, this was just 'terrorist cleansing' and NOT 'ethnic cleansing', right?

Clearing Hamas out the tunnels and destroying the tunnels could compromise what remains of the structural integrity of the buildings on top of the tunnels, which would endanger the civilian surface dwellers, which is why they have to clear out.

Clearing the citizens out of the lands that they STOLE is also just as 'appropriate' right?

If no, then WHY NOT?

No one except Israel seems too concerned with getting them out, so Israel is protecting the civilians by setting up safe zones, so says the news.

No one except "gaza" seems too concerned with getting them out, so "gaza" is protecting the civilians by setting up safe zones, so say some.

Also, WHY are 'you', "walker", here so "one-sided".

Hamas’ primary interest in the Gaza civilians is to use them for anti-Israel, anti-Jewish propaganda.

"israel's" primary interest in the "gaza" civilians is to move them into smaller and smaller and smaller parcels of land.

Also, and by the way "walker", have 'you' EVER STOPPED TO CONSIDER WHY the human beings who are STUCK in "gaza" have BECOME so-called "anti-israel" and "anit-jewish"?

If you have, then WHAT DID 'you' CONCLUDE?

Using the civilians as human shields is one way to do this,

Talk ABOUT 'propaganda'?

Also, why are family members and civilians in "israel" USED as "human shields" by the people from the government of "israel", who make the RULES of STEALING the lands and of the SHRINKING size of lands with an IMPRISONED group of human beings, and 'this behavior' NOT get a MENTION by 'you' NOR by LOTS of media in very particular parts of earth?

which is why Hamas embedded themselves in the population, with offices in hospital basements, that sort of thing.

Are the "israel" government buildings and offices all placed in one particular place, or have they be so-called 'embedded in the population'.

Also, do 'you', adult human beings, even NOTICE 'your' CHOICE of VERY PARTICULAR WORDS that 'you' USE when 'you' have a VERY "one-sided" view and perspective of 'things'?

This CHOICE', also known as PROPAGANDA is COMPLETELY NOTICED when 'it' comes FROM the "other" side, but VERY RARELY, if EVER, when 'it' comes FROM one's OWN "side".

The problem for Hamas is, if the civilians leave for their safety they can’t be human shields, which makes them less effective propaganda tools because in the news, if it bleeds it leads.

WHY do the civilians even HAVE TO LEAVE? Who, EXACTLY, is THREATENING to KILL those civilians? And, WHY are they being THREATENED that they WILL BE KILLED if they do NOT LEAVE their OWN properties and houses?

Also, WHERE have they even got to go to? A SMALLER and SMALLER area of CONTINUALLY STOLEN piece of land? Or, do they HAVE TO SOMEHOW GET THROUGH ANOTHER BORDER and ENTER and STAY in ANOTHER country?

Applying logic to the murderous and ruthless terrorists that want to destroy Israel and the Jews, plan B for Hamas, in regards to the civilians, would be to wait until all the civilians are corralled into a Safe Zone,

LOL
LOL
LOL

'safe zone'?

Talk about be MANIPULATED TO BELIEVE UTTER DECEPTION and LIES "walker".

Also, what are 'you' basing 'your' so-called 'applying logic' ON, EXACTLY?

then kill the Gaza civilians in ways that would leave some body parts for the propagandists to photograph and distribute, and of course say that Israel did it.

Are 'you' here 'trying to' suggest that people from "israel" have NOT KILLED some human beings who were and are FORCED to live in a SHRUNKEN parcel of their OWN lands?

Also, WHY from 'your' perspective there are ONLY "propagandists" on the "OTHER side"?

This could be accomplished by the Hamas terrorists who are still embedded in the population, and who would be sent to safe zones along with the civilians … in the same way that terrorists embed themselves in the civilians who are illegally crossing the southern border of the US to enter the safe zone of America, safe being a relative and transitory condition.

Also, ALL of the people from so-called "hamas" might tie up citizens of "gaza" and put them in the so-called "unsafe zone", while ALL of the people from "hamas" move to the so-called "safe zone", and then inform the people from so-called "israel" that 'we', pretending "civilians", have ALL moved into the "safe zone" so now feel absolutely free to KILL ALL of those human beings, pretending to be "hamas" people, in the "unsafe zone".

Have you CONSIDERED 'this' AS WELL "walker"?

If no, then WHY NOT?

'This', like 'your claims' above, might ALSO HAPPEN and OCCUR.

[Alexis Jacobi]

This recent event, these unfolding events, encompass within them a microcosm of so many of the issues and conflicts besetting the world. The pressure is on to define oneself — morally — in relation to each thorny social question.

So, are 'you', "alexis jacobi", going to START to 'define' and/or 'defend' "yourself" here, morally?

If no, then WHY expect ANY one "else" to do it?

And are 'you' even going to define what ANY of these, supposed and so-called, 'thorny social questions' are here, exactly?

Also, WHY do 'you' CLAIM that there is some so-called 'pressure' here? From who and from where is this alleged 'pressure' coming, EXACTLY?

You are edging your way to a good topic. When I spoke of a *microcosm* and thorny social questions -- what did that make you think of?

[Age]

You could maybe replace the tuning fork with a giant Nepalese singing bowl, but it would still need the bedrock.

With all due respects, Walker, all your recent posts have been ridiculous and it does not cast a favorable light on your arguments (such as they are).

Let’s ask this question: What will the actual result be in 3 months, in 6 months, after this *unprecedented* invasion of Gaza?

What if a wider conflict develops? (A regional conflict).

Here's a question for you, with all due respects.

Did you see the video of that Hamas Freedom Fighter who found one of his enemy on the ground with a wound, semi-conscious and bleeding out?

It's the video where the Freedom Fighter took a garden hoe, positioned himself a hoe's length from the wounded man's head, and then began chopping on his throat with hoe with long, powerful blows to chop the man's head off.

Even 'you' here "walker" NAMED 'that one' an 'enemy'.

What do you think the "freedom fighters of america" DO to 'their enemy'? Show them LOVE and buy them dinner?

'you', adult human beings, HURT and/or KILL "EACH OTHER", which 'you', personally, NAME and LABEL "another human being", 'the enemy'. Were 'you' NOT YET AWARE of this IRREFUTABLE Fact "walker"?

Is 'your' "one-sided" view and perspective of 'things' BLOCKING and/or PREVENTING 'you' from SEEING and HEARING some 'things' here.

The camera turned for a moment and you could see the face of Hamas, and it had a big smile.

Have 'you' NEVER seen the face of an "american freedom fighter" during or after the KILLING and MURDER of 'the enemy' or when talking about/bragging about the MURDER and KILLING of the so-called 'enemy'?

If NOT, then just maybe 'you' have a VERY "one-sided" VIEW and PERSPECTIVE of 'things' here.

Looked kind of excited, his dreams were coming true.

Have 'you' NEVER NOTICED the look on the faces of "american people" after they found out that "osama bin laden" had been KILLED by a so-called "american freedom fighter" or "american soldier"?

In case 'you' did NOT NOTICE then 'you' just have to IMAGINE the LOOK on the faces of the "american people" after finding out that the dream of KILLING and MURDERING 'that enemy' had FINALLY come true.

He may have even been giggling, then he went back to the chopping.

Did NOT ANY so-called "american person" cheer nor giggle somewhat when they found out that the human being known as "osama bin laden" had been KILLED and EXTINGUISHED from Life?

The victim's hands involuntarily twitched with each chop to his throat.

What do 'you' think or imagine the hands of the bodies of 'the enemy' of the "american people" do with each KILLING of 'those bodies'?

Did you see that one, for perspective upon the situation?

NO. WHY did 'you' NOT provide a link here?

[Age]

No, I did not see that one, and you really should include links.

Vaaazz.
(the link) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jPb45NFfI80

You really should open your eyes and mind to know the truth, as I educate you only as a courtesy to make the point, and because words that I use further remove us from the atrocity that a video would make more real.

Does this mean that you will NOT link to some video, which you CLAIM exists?

[Age]

No, I did not see that one, and you really should include links.

Vaaazz.
(the link) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jPb45NFfI80

You really should open your eyes and mind to know the truth, as I educate you only as a courtesy to make the point, and because words that I use further remove us from the atrocity that a video would make more real.

He's a sociopath. It's like trying to explain colour to someone who has been blind from birth, or music to someone who's been completely deaf from birth. He probably justifies the gassing of Jews too, if he even believe it happened. I mean, it could all have been 'deep faked'...

Here we have GREAT examples of just how CONSTANT these people were in being "one-sided", BLIND, and DEAF, back then, when this was being written.

[Age]

I asked you to post the video you referred to. You didn't.

For me to post it, I would have to find it again. I'm not doing that for you, just because you demand it.

So, what about the video I saw of God EXPLAINING HOW and WHY 'you', adult human beings. are DOING Wrong here. If 'you' just EDUCATED "yourselves", then 'you' would ALREADY KNOW the Truth, as EXPLAINED in 'that video'.

You can do it yourself, if you're interested in educating yourself to the truth ... which is clearly bullshit since no evidence is sufficient to prove what happened ... and here you demand evidence to prove what will happen in the future, which will also be denied.

In other words, you're more interested in The Art and Methods of Noise ... respectfully speaking.

I could less respectfully tell you what I think of that, which is where my attention is itching to go, but that wouldn't be appropriate in my humble opinion.

So I'll leave you to the mercies of VT.

[Age]

For me to post it, I would have to find it again. I'm not doing that for you, just because you demand it.

To ask is different from 'to demand'. I can imagine the scene based on your description and I do not doubt that it happened.

With that said, what is it that you want? What do you want me to realize or see?

if you're interested in educating yourself to the truth

I am very interested in what you have to say about the real and proper route to the truth, to quote you. You believe that you have it. I ask that you clearly explain it. Is that unreasonable?

I could less respectfully tell you what I think of that, which is where my attention is itching to go, but that wouldn't be appropriate in my humble opinion.

Actually it would be helpful, and it would be *truthful* wouldn't it? And truth, you say, is what really interests you.

Get over false-humility. Tell me exactly what you think of what I say here and what you think of me as a person for saying it.

"walker" has ALREADY ADMITTED that what the people of "palestine" have been DOING is APPROPRIATE.