Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sat Aug 05, 2023 6:22 pmThat's what you're not answering. They needed more than a claim that "human authority" gave it to them, because factually, it was the thing that denied it to them. So on what basis could they launch a contrary appeal?
It is amazing, if weird, to watch you perform these conversational acrobatics. First, you yourself hold the position that human rights have as their origin and sole back-up that of the God that you define. Rights, the possibility of any right, is granted by that God and, in the final instance, will exact a criminal payment if rights are not upheld. What those *rights* are, within the Christian traditions, comes to us through the Hebrew prophets who, shall we say, heard the Voice of God and made God's will plain to man through Judaism and Christianity.
I wonder if you would recognize that other god-concepts also put forward moral systems, and make the statement that these morals, and moral truths generally, descend to man from God? I am uncertain if, in your close-minded mental world, you would recognize other god-concepts (the pagan gods) as being *manifestations of god* (apperceptions of divine impulse as I might put it) or if you would say that only, and strictly, through the Judeo-Christian revelation that morals come into our world. I would ask for clarification but -- as often happens -- you will likely avoid answering.
This issue is so easy, so truly easy, to resolve. It goes like this: any statement you, the Hebrews, the Buddhists, the Jains, the Vaishnavas, or anyone else would make, or could make, about 'revelation' of Divine Commands, all of this only and strictly comes through men. There must be a seer, a hearer, a receiver, an interpreter, of whatever these ideas, demands or impulses are. No god that anyone defines *sky-writes* his will, its will, in such a way that all men can see it
objectively. Thus there is no *empirical* evidence that you or anyone can refer to. It is all subjective and
hearsay.
For those who hear your
sermonizing they respond to you in more or less the same way as I just did.
When you ask: "Where did the notion of *rights* come from?" you ask a question for which you have an answer --
the answer. Everyone who reads you know that answer.
But the basis of the answer that, for you, seems absolutely right, is from where I sit absolutely wrong. For the reason I mentioned: any seer, any prophet, any god-oriented person, has only their subjective apparatus as the vehicle through which the impulses of god (I do not know how to put this) come to that person. Then, as with the Hebrews, that seer transcribes the vision into a verbal form. Now, you might believe, as many do, that *the voice of god was heard*, and naturally you cannot conceive of any other possibility because, literally, your belief-system
hangs upon that belief.
But from where *we* stand we say, as we can only say, that no matter what may be the *ultimate truth* about this issue, the sense of *rights* comes
only and
exclusively through men and their subjective musing, plungings, and transports. Full stop Brother Immanuel.
That means, in the end, that they all come from men. Note the
genitive case (of, from).
I can say *Revelation comes from God and through men* and *Revelation comes from God and [is]
of men*. But I have certain problems if I say, without any further qualification, that *Revelation comes from God*.
Rights in European culture have a unique and complex origin. The idea of *rights* comes from
numerous sources, or came to be defined in jurisprudence and in moral philosophy in different ways.
Rights
only have validity, in our culture, and anywhere, if someone
respects the right. And it does not require a god-believer to respect a defined and established right, especially when it can be defined, and had been defined, through
other means (that is, not through theological definition).
Their societies had already ruled on their status. It had already been decided, by the majority and all those with social power, that women were not to vote and schools, busses and businesses were not to be integrated. So by what "right" did they defy "the human authority" that "grants rights," to demand a "right" that their society had never so far granted them?
The right to sit with White passengers on busses was an attained right, and it was attained through boycott. Yet too there was another element to how it was attained: moral guilt and blame. True, that there was
also the Christian belief that every soul is equal, and should not be discriminated against, but it could be argued, and was argued, that everyone (Whites and Blacks) are better off having their own seats, their own hotels and schools, and all the rest. That could have been a *moral* argument as well. Indeed some Blacks made that argument when they desired separation.
There is no moral reason, or no theological reason that I can discern, that indicates why the Supreme God, if such is said to exist and is conceived to exist, would hold as Its primary tenet that "Let women have the vote!" as if intoned from a mountain top. It is more a convention of our society, and it is also a logical extension of Liberal predicates. Women were given the vote because women worked to achieve them, and as it happened the counter-arguments were not convincing enough on men's part to keep those rights from them.
But do women have *rights* at a metaphysical level? You could attempt that argument and it might be a good
essai. But you could also make a considerable argument that
they should not.
It may be true, and I will say that it is true, that our ethical and moral sensibilities are in a crisis. I can go that far. But I struggle to be certain about what *God* wants or does not want -- unless I recur to a
cultural ethical matrix such as prophetic Judaism and Christian philosophy.