Authority and Autonomy

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Age
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Re: Authority and Autonomy

Post by Age »

Wizard22 wrote: Sat Jul 29, 2023 8:10 am
Peter Kropotkin wrote: Fri Jul 28, 2023 3:47 pmand in the 200 plus years since the Enlightenment, we still haven't
worked out this autonomy bit yet...

so what does autonomy look like in this day and age of
"big brother"

Kropotkin
To have one's own Law is to contradict society's Laws,
Are you the Judge, Jury, and Executioner?
And, 'society's law' can contradict 'one's own law', but this in NO WAY means that 'society's law' is even CLOSE to being Right, NOR that 'one's own law' is the Wrong law.

'you', individual people, will NEVER be the Judge/Jury. ONLY 'I' AM, and ALWAYS.

But 'you' people, in the days when this is being written, are still some way off from LEARNING, UNDERSTANDING, and KNOWING 'Who 'I' AM', EXACTLY.
Wizard22
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Re: Authority and Autonomy

Post by Wizard22 »

Age wrote: Sat Jul 29, 2023 12:31 pmAnd, 'society's law' can contradict 'one's own law', but this in NO WAY means that 'society's law' is even CLOSE to being Right, NOR that 'one's own law' is the Wrong law.

'you', individual people, will NEVER be the Judge/Jury. ONLY 'I' AM, and ALWAYS.

But 'you' people, in the days when this is being written, are still some way off from LEARNING, UNDERSTANDING, and KNOWING 'Who 'I' AM', EXACTLY.
There's that Autism we've discussed, hiding, protecting, covering for, unbridled Egotism.

Nobody cares who you are, Age, until you can perform, until you can convince, until you can persuade and reason and philosophize.

Men are defined by their Victories, far before their Failures. Where are your victories, Age? Where is your Philosophy??
Iwannaplato
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Re: Authority and Autonomy

Post by Iwannaplato »

Wizard22 wrote: Sat Jul 29, 2023 11:22 am Because Liberal-Left-Democrats are not Conservative-Right-Republicans...?

These are two separate modes of Governmental Authority. Democracy is an appeal to the mob and mob-mentality. Republicanism is fundamentally different than this. You should know, plato, The Republic. Republicanism is based on notions of Justice, Righteousness, and prevention of Tyranny. The United States was founded as a 'Constitutional Republic'.
You are still missing the point. You've asking us how to assign blame. It seemed as if you were skeptical this could be done. You seemed critical of assigning blame. That when people do this they aren't taking responsibility.

So, to answer your question of how one assigns blame, I suggest you look at yourself and how you assign blame. IOW this doesn't seem hard for you to do.

Perhaps I have misunderstood, but it seemed like the point of this thread was that blaming others is damaging one's own autonomy, not easy to do - given how complicated causes and effects are to work out - and a bad habit. In that context, it seemed, you were asking us, a bit incredulously how one could possibly assign blame.

But here you are assigning blame. Your reaction to my pointing this out is to justify the blame you assign. I didn't tell you your blame was wrong. The topic isn't whether the Left is bad or their actions let to X. There's no need in this context to justify. My point is that however you justified this was your way of asigning blame. IOW see it can be done, even when there are complex causes. And thus through your own ability to assign blame with great confidence you may have your answer to how other people can assign blame and as confidently as you do, even in situations that are very complex.
Last edited by Iwannaplato on Sat Jul 29, 2023 1:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Age
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Re: Authority and Autonomy

Post by Age »

Wizard22 wrote: Sat Jul 29, 2023 10:58 am
Age wrote: Sat Jul 29, 2023 10:38 amI observe the EXACT SAME 'thing', so I have NO idea WHY you SAY that I am 'out of touch' here.
Because you said: "But it is NOT 'hard' to so-call 'blame' "oneself"."
And 'that' IS Right?

It is NOT hard AT ALL to so-call 'blame' "oneself". But 'this' still does NOT take way from the Fact that 'you', adult human beings, in the days when this is being written, mostly NEVER 'blame' "yourselves" FOR the Wrong that 'you' ALL DO.

Just because some 'thing' is NOT 'hard' to do does NOT mean that 'thing' gets done.
Wizard22 wrote: Sat Jul 29, 2023 10:58 am So you just contradicted yourself. Apparently it *IS HARD* to blame oneself, which is why most people either cannot or will not do it.
Here we have ANOTHER GREAT example of 'CONFIRMATION BIAS'.

you BELIEVE that the reason WHY most people can NOT or will NOT 'blame' "themselves" BECAUSE 'doing so' IS HARD. AND, it IS HARD for most people to 'blame' "themselves" SO 'they' can NOT or will NOT 'blame' "themseves".

The CIRCULAR REASONING here is AS OBVIOUS as the SELECTIVE REASONING IS.
Wizard22 wrote: Sat Jul 29, 2023 10:58 am So who are you talking about...yourself? I think it takes a particular type of mentality and constitution to "blame oneself". Because people are subjectively inclined for self-preservation. This means...lying about causing negative outcomes. It means shame, guilt, hiding culpability, deception, etc.

A person needs an objective mindset, in order to suppress subjective bias with regard to Causality and Blame of oneself, with further regard to 'negative' outcomes and consequences.
AND, HOW TO GAIN and OBTAIN a Truly OBJECTIVE VIEWPOINT, ALWAYS, IS Truly SIMPLE, and EASY, AS WELL.
Wizard22 wrote: Sat Jul 29, 2023 10:58 am Most people blame others for their failures. So this is the default, in humanity, and presumably in Nature, if Mammals were even capable of it and had the IQ-level to do so.
So, to "wizard22", if MOST people do 'some thing', then 'this' MEANS that doing 'that thing' IS the so-called 'default position' of humans and/or 'human nature'. And, "wizard22" goes SO FAR here as to even CLAIM that what MOST people do MEANS that 'that' IS the 'default position' OF even 'Nature', Itself.

Have you NEVER considered that what MOST of 'you', adult human beings, DO could just be BECAUSE what 'you' do has just come to be a LEARNED behavior?

Which, by the way, could be the EXACT OPPOSITE OF 'human nature' or the EXACT OPPOSITE OF 'Nature', Itself? Or, is 'this' an IMPOSSIBILITY TO 'you', "wizard22"?
Wizard22 wrote: Sat Jul 29, 2023 10:58 am Of course Mammals would immediately blame Otherness for their own failings. It's a psychological self-defense mechanism of the Ego.
'These human beings', back in the days when this was being written, OBVIOUSLY HAD SO MUCH MORE TO LEARN, and UNDERSTAND.
Age
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Re: Authority and Autonomy

Post by Age »

Wizard22 wrote: Sat Jul 29, 2023 12:43 pm
Age wrote: Sat Jul 29, 2023 12:31 pmAnd, 'society's law' can contradict 'one's own law', but this in NO WAY means that 'society's law' is even CLOSE to being Right, NOR that 'one's own law' is the Wrong law.

'you', individual people, will NEVER be the Judge/Jury. ONLY 'I' AM, and ALWAYS.

But 'you' people, in the days when this is being written, are still some way off from LEARNING, UNDERSTANDING, and KNOWING 'Who 'I' AM', EXACTLY.
There's that Autism we've discussed, hiding, protecting, covering for, unbridled Egotism.
What do 'you' mean by 'we' have discussed? 'you' are the ONLY one EXPRESSING 'your' OWN ASSUMPTIONS and BELIEFS here.

AND, LOL, what do 'you' even IMAGINE 'I' AM 'hiding', 'protecting', and 'covering' for, so-called 'unbridled Egotism', (with capital 'e')?
Wizard22 wrote: Sat Jul 29, 2023 10:58 am Nobody cares who you are, Age,
LOL Even 'this' 'you' could NOT get Right AND Correct.

ONCE AGAIN, 'you' have completely AND utterly MISSED and MISUNDERSTOOD what 'I' was SAYING and POINTING OUT here. But 'this' IS NOTHING UNUSUAL CONSIDERING the BELIEFS and ASSUMPTIONS that 'you' ARE MAKING and HOLDING ONTO here.
Wizard22 wrote: Sat Jul 29, 2023 10:58 am until you can perform, until you can convince, until you can persuade and reason and philosophize.
BUT 'I' do NOT 'convince', do 'persuasion', NOR 'philosophize' (from 'your' perspective of 'philosophize').
Wizard22 wrote: Sat Jul 29, 2023 10:58 am Men are defined by their Victories, far before their Failures.
'Men', just like 'women', ARE defined BY the WORDS USED to DEFINE 'them'.
Wizard22 wrote: Sat Jul 29, 2023 10:58 am Where are your victories, Age?
But what 'you' class as 'victories', to 'us', IS ABSURDISM, in THE EXTREME.
Wizard22 wrote: Sat Jul 29, 2023 10:58 am Where is your Philosophy??
WHY?
Age
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Re: Authority and Autonomy

Post by Age »

Iwannaplato wrote: Sat Jul 29, 2023 12:56 pm
Wizard22 wrote: Sat Jul 29, 2023 11:22 am Because Liberal-Left-Democrats are not Conservative-Right-Republicans...?

These are two separate modes of Governmental Authority. Democracy is an appeal to the mob and mob-mentality. Republicanism is fundamentally different than this. You should know, plato, The Republic. Republicanism is based on notions of Justice, Righteousness, and prevention of Tyranny. The United States was founded as a 'Constitutional Republic'.
You are still missing the point. You've asking us how to assign blame. It seemed as if you were skeptical this could be done. You seemed critical of assigning blame. That when people do this they aren't taking responsibility.

So, to answer your question of how one assigns blame, I suggest you look at yourself and how you assign blame. IOW this doesn't seem hard for you to do.

Perhaps I have misunderstood, but it seemed like the point of this thread was that blaming others is damaging one's own autonomy, not easy to do - given how complicated causes and effects are to work out - and a bad habit. In that context, it seemed, you were asking us, a bit incredulously how one could possibly assign blame.

But here you are assigning blame.
"wizard22" could be THE MASTER OF 'assigning BLAME', ON "others" and/or OTHER 'things'. One just has to LOOK AT and READ the words under the label "wizard22" here, in this forum.
Iwannaplato wrote: Sat Jul 29, 2023 12:56 pm Your reaction to my pointing this out is to justify the blame you assign. I didn't tell you your blame was wrong. The topic isn't whether the Left is bad or their actions let to X. There's no need in this context to justify. My point is that however you justified this was your way of asigning blame. IOW see it can be done, even when there are complex causes. And thus through your own ability to assign blame with great confidence you may have your answer to how other people can assign blame and as confidently as you do, even in situations that are very complex.
Iwannaplato
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Re: Authority and Autonomy

Post by Iwannaplato »

Wizard22 wrote: Fri Jul 28, 2023 11:05 am How can any person possibly differentiate between what is "actually caused" by oneself, by another, or by something else (like "Nature")?
In response to...
Skepdick wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 11:15 am When did blame ever achieve anything other than start witch-hunts?

Quit playing the blame-game and start playing the "here's a better way" game.
You said....
Wizard22 wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 11:57 am Because if you can't Blame a person, then nothing can be done to correct the error.
So, I'm still trying to understand what you're after in this thread.
It seems like you blame people and groups.
It seems [above] that you see blame as necessary.
But in this thread you seem to be saying that it is not possible to assign blame (with any accuracy, perhaps).

So, what is you position?
Are you the exception? Do you mean, in this thread, how could people other than you possibly assign blame?
Wizard22
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Re: Authority and Autonomy

Post by Wizard22 »

Iwannaplato wrote: Sat Jul 29, 2023 12:56 pmYou are still missing the point. You've asking us how to assign blame. It seemed as if you were skeptical this could be done. You seemed critical of assigning blame. That when people do this they aren't taking responsibility.

So, to answer your question of how one assigns blame, I suggest you look at yourself and how you assign blame. IOW this doesn't seem hard for you to do.

Perhaps I have misunderstood, but it seemed like the point of this thread was that blaming others is damaging one's own autonomy, not easy to do - given how complicated causes and effects are to work out - and a bad habit. In that context, it seemed, you were asking us, a bit incredulously how one could possibly assign blame.
Blame does damage one's Autonomy when a person cannot attribute Causes to its Sources. This is the root of Injustice, to blame a person or persons for crimes they did not commit.

Iwannaplato wrote: Sat Jul 29, 2023 12:56 pmBut here you are assigning blame. Your reaction to my pointing this out is to justify the blame you assign. I didn't tell you your blame was wrong. The topic isn't whether the Left is bad or their actions let to X. There's no need in this context to justify. My point is that however you justified this was your way of asigning blame. IOW see it can be done, even when there are complex causes. And thus through your own ability to assign blame with great confidence you may have your answer to how other people can assign blame and as confidently as you do, even in situations that are very complex.
You pulled an example of me assigning Blame/Cause to complex systems: Democracy, Government, Western Liberalism. I can go into those in detail, if you want to go down that path. Let's use Transexuality and the current issue of castrating boys, teenagers, or young men. Let's assume ages 12-24. Who's to blame? If this is a social and societal issue, which Libertines would disagree that it is, then my position is simply that we can start with all those who are either Neutral to the proposition, and especially those who are "Woke" and encourage the LGBTQMAP+. And speaking in generalities, we could cast a wide net here...why not?

Blaming a Society is different than Blaming a Person, or is it?

Can children consent? Can teenagers? Then why would children or teenagers be candidates for transitioning surgeries, aka. Castration? How is it even possible, that now, 2023AD, after so many Centuries, is Genital Mutilation back in the realm of reasonable dialogue? Why now? Why all-of-a-sudden, as if people have not been paying attention?


Or we can use any example, mundane, positive, arbitrary: Who's to Blame for a car wreck? How are car wrecks Caused?

At which different points is any human individual, or society, not a 'Causal' force? People deny their own authority and accountability, quickly, when 'Blame' points the finger at them. Or consider the matters of Guilt and Shame. Are these not examples of a person blaming-oneself? Can people be wrong? Can people lie? Can people take the blame for other people's crimes and failings?
Wizard22
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Re: Authority and Autonomy

Post by Wizard22 »

Age wrote: Sat Jul 29, 2023 1:13 pmAnd 'that' IS Right?

It is NOT hard AT ALL to so-call 'blame' "oneself". But 'this' still does NOT take way from the Fact that 'you', adult human beings, in the days when this is being written, mostly NEVER 'blame' "yourselves" FOR the Wrong that 'you' ALL DO.

Just because some 'thing' is NOT 'hard' to do does NOT mean that 'thing' gets done.
You've not really proved your point.

Humanity's natural default when it comes to blame, is to disassociate Blame when it accounts for something bad/wrong/evil, and associate Credit when it accounts for something good/right/beneficial.

I think this concept is beyond your level to discuss, Age.
Age
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Re: Authority and Autonomy

Post by Age »

Wizard22 wrote: Sun Jul 30, 2023 8:46 am
Age wrote: Sat Jul 29, 2023 1:13 pmAnd 'that' IS Right?

It is NOT hard AT ALL to so-call 'blame' "oneself". But 'this' still does NOT take way from the Fact that 'you', adult human beings, in the days when this is being written, mostly NEVER 'blame' "yourselves" FOR the Wrong that 'you' ALL DO.

Just because some 'thing' is NOT 'hard' to do does NOT mean that 'thing' gets done.
You've not really proved your point.
What is there TO PROVE, TO 'you'?

OBVIOUSLY, just because some 'thing' is NOT 'hard' to do, 'this' does NOT mean that 'that thing' will be done.

For example, it is EXTREMELY VERY EASY to just REMAIN OPEN, and thus BE WISE. BUT, 'this' in NO WAY MEANS that ANY of 'you', adults, WILL DO 'this'.

So, what is 'it' that 'you' NEED or WANT PROVE of here, EXACTLY?
Wizard22 wrote: Sun Jul 30, 2023 8:46 am Humanity's natural default when it comes to blame, is to disassociate Blame when it accounts for something bad/wrong/evil, and associate Credit when it accounts for something good/right/beneficial.
LOL
LOL
LOL

And 'what' are 'you' BASING 'this' BELIEF of 'yours' OFF or ON, EXACTLY?

Or, in other words, what PROOF do 'you' have FOR 'this CLAIM' of 'yours' here?

Also, what is the ACTUAL DIFFERENCE between 'blame' AND 'Blame' here?
Wizard22 wrote: Sun Jul 30, 2023 8:46 am I think this concept is beyond your level to discuss, Age.
'you' ARE ABSOLUTELY FREE TO THINK absolutely ANY 'thing' that 'you' like and want to here.

BUT, JUST MAYBE I AM WAY AHEAD OF 'you' here REGARDING 'this' CONCEPT and BELIEF of 'yours' here.
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Re: Authority and Autonomy

Post by Iwannaplato »

Wizard22 wrote: Sun Jul 30, 2023 8:40 am Blame does damage one's Autonomy when a person cannot attribute Causes to its Sources. This is the root of Injustice, to blame a person or persons for crimes they did not commit.
Well, everyone justifies their blame, except for very honest people who can say something like 'I hate you right now, because X happened, but I have idea if that's fair.' Or the political equivalent. But otherwise pretty much everyone, like you, has blame, actively blames and then justifies that blame. So, how does one know one is blaming fairly, not being confirmation-biased, not blaming for near unconscious reasons and looking for justifcation anywhere one can find it, not blaming for reasons other than the one one justifies the blame with, not blaming just one agent when there are others and so on?

IOW if one reads the OP one gets the impression there is a problem with blaming. But now it seems like blame is ok as long as you have good justification.

You pulled an example of me assigning Blame/Cause to complex systems: Democracy, Government, Western Liberalism. I can go into those in detail, if you want to go down that path. Let's use Transexuality and the current issue of castrating boys, teenagers, or young men. Let's assume ages 12-24. Who's to blame? If this is a social and societal issue, which Libertines would disagree that it is, then my position is simply that we can start with all those who are either Neutral to the proposition, and especially those who are "Woke" and encourage the LGBTQMAP+. And speaking in generalities, we could cast a wide net here...why not?

Blaming a Society is different than Blaming a Person, or is it?
Blaming society is very general, blaming a faction in society less so, though certainly broader than blaming a person. But I have certainly gotten the impression you blame individual people on the Left, including saying they have no souls or morals.
Or we can use any example, mundane, positive, arbitrary: Who's to Blame for a car wreck? How are car wrecks Caused?
Sure, car wrecks are good examples, especially if one wants to point out that blame can be spread out. Perhaps one driver was more at fault or so clearly did something wrong so on that level. But then I had a friend how went from engineer to emergency room doctor and he was outraged by how unsafe cars were made. Then we could blame a society that has facilitated the use of cars and not other forms of transportation. Then I'd need to get into the specifics of the case but police, drivers parents, the way the road laid out and maintained could all be brought to bear as potential causes. And not that any of these causes becomes the only cause, but it sure can be a mix.
At which different points is any human individual, or society, not a 'Causal' force? People deny their own authority and accountability, quickly, when 'Blame' points the finger at them.
Well, again, those that do. Others fall for blame when they shouldn't. You've already acknowledged this, but I think it's good to keep that idea fresh.
Or consider the matters of Guilt and Shame. Are these not examples of a person blaming-oneself?
Yes. Though they are not working through the issue. Regret is when one has worked through. Guilt is this weird mixed half dead state. I am bad because I did X. You haven't resolved it. You haven't really forgiven yourself and noted that you've learned and you probably haven't forgiven the other person for noticed what an ass you were.
Can people be wrong? Can people lie? Can people take the blame for other people's crimes and failings?
3 yesses.
Last edited by Iwannaplato on Sun Jul 30, 2023 10:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
Age
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Re: Authority and Autonomy

Post by Age »

Wizard22 wrote: Sun Jul 30, 2023 8:40 am
Iwannaplato wrote: Sat Jul 29, 2023 12:56 pmYou are still missing the point. You've asking us how to assign blame. It seemed as if you were skeptical this could be done. You seemed critical of assigning blame. That when people do this they aren't taking responsibility.

So, to answer your question of how one assigns blame, I suggest you look at yourself and how you assign blame. IOW this doesn't seem hard for you to do.

Perhaps I have misunderstood, but it seemed like the point of this thread was that blaming others is damaging one's own autonomy, not easy to do - given how complicated causes and effects are to work out - and a bad habit. In that context, it seemed, you were asking us, a bit incredulously how one could possibly assign blame.
Blame does damage one's Autonomy when a person cannot attribute Causes to its Sources.
There is SO MUCH TO UNPACK and UNRAVEL here.

1. WHY do you USE capital letters at the beginning of SOME words?

2. HOW does 'blame' supposedly damage one's so-called 'Autonomy'?

3. What is the 'its' word REFERRING TO, EXACTLY?

4. The so-called 'Sources' of 'what', EXACTLY?

5. The 'cause', or so-called 'Causes' of ALL 'things' IS FUNDAMENTALLY the EXACT SAME 'thing/s'.

6. WHY ONLY WHEN a person can NOT attribute so-called 'Causes' to SOME so-called 'Sources' THEN 'blame', supposedly, does damage one's so-called 'Autonomy'?
Wizard22 wrote: Sun Jul 30, 2023 8:40 am This is the root of Injustice, to blame a person or persons for crimes they did not commit.
Are 'you' even AWARE that 'you' CONSTANTLY, and CONSISTENTLY, CONFLATE 'issues' here.

There IS 'blame' TO a person/s who HAS ACTUALLY COMMITTED a crime, AND THEN, there IS 'blame' TO a 'person/s' who HAS NOT ACTUALLY COMMITTED a crime. BUT, what IS the 'This' word here REFERRING TO, EXACTLY?

And, HOW COULD 'BLAMING' someone for DOING SOME 'thing' that 'they' ACTUALLY DID DO, BE, allegedly, 'The root of injustice'?
Wizard22 wrote: Sun Jul 30, 2023 8:40 am
Iwannaplato wrote: Sat Jul 29, 2023 12:56 pmBut here you are assigning blame. Your reaction to my pointing this out is to justify the blame you assign. I didn't tell you your blame was wrong. The topic isn't whether the Left is bad or their actions let to X. There's no need in this context to justify. My point is that however you justified this was your way of asigning blame. IOW see it can be done, even when there are complex causes. And thus through your own ability to assign blame with great confidence you may have your answer to how other people can assign blame and as confidently as you do, even in situations that are very complex.
You pulled an example of me assigning Blame/Cause to complex systems: Democracy, Government, Western Liberalism. I can go into those in detail, if you want to go down that path. Let's use Transexuality and the current issue of castrating boys, teenagers, or young men. Let's assume ages 12-24. Who's to blame?
WHO IS TO BLAME FOR 'what', EXACTLY?

The CUTTING OFF OF certain organs?
The WANTING TO CUT OFF certain organs?
THE REASON WHY SOME WANT TO CUT OFF certain organs?

The QUESTION, 'Who's to blame?' by itself, IS SO OBVIOUSLY ABSURD, WHY can 'you' NOT YET EVEN SEE 'this' BLATANTLY OBVIOUS FACT?
Wizard22 wrote: Sun Jul 30, 2023 8:40 am If this is a social and societal issue, which Libertines would disagree that it is, then my position is simply that we can start with all those who are either Neutral to the proposition, and especially those who are "Woke" and encourage the LGBTQMAP+. And speaking in generalities, we could cast a wide net here...why not?
DID 'you' ANSWER the CLARIFYING QUESTION ABOVE here?

If no, then WHY NOT?

Blaming a Society is different than Blaming a Person, or is it?
Wizard22 wrote: Sun Jul 30, 2023 8:40 am Can children consent?
TO 'what', EXACTLY?

'you' REALLY DO ASK the MOST ABSURD and LUDICROUS QUESTIONS "wizard22".

'you' ASK like 'you' EXPECT TO KNOW what 'you' ARE THINKING WITHIN 'that body'.

YET, as I HAVE ALREADY PROVED, and WILL PROVE FURTHER True, even 'you' do NOT YET KNOW what 'you' ARE TALKING ABOUT and REFERRING TO here.
Wizard22 wrote: Sun Jul 30, 2023 8:40 am Can teenagers?
WHAT?
Wizard22 wrote: Sun Jul 30, 2023 8:40 am Then why would children or teenagers be candidates for transitioning surgeries, aka. Castration? How is it even possible, that now, 2023AD, after so many Centuries, is Genital Mutilation back in the realm of reasonable dialogue? Why now? Why all-of-a-sudden, as if people have not been paying attention?
What ABOUT the 'piercings' OF 'the body'?

Can children consent?

Can teenagers?
Wizard22 wrote: Sun Jul 30, 2023 8:40 am Or we can use any example, mundane, positive, arbitrary: Who's to Blame for a car wreck? How are car wrecks Caused?
There ARE BILLION DIFFERENT SCENARIOS, FOR EVERY so-called 'car wreck'. So, WHO IS TO so-call 'Blame' FOR 'what', EXACTLY, "wizard22"?

AGAIN, 'your' TYPE OF QUESTIONING IS ABSOLUTELY ABSURD and RIDICULOUS.
Wizard22 wrote: Sun Jul 30, 2023 8:40 am
At which different points is any human individual, or society, not a 'Causal' force?
IN the SITUATIONS WHERE NO human played a part IN CAUSING 'THE SITUATION' to OCCUR, nor HAPPEN. Like, for example, EVERY POINT WHEN human beings had NO 'causal' NOR even 'Causal' force.
Wizard22 wrote: Sun Jul 30, 2023 8:40 am People deny their own authority and accountability, quickly, when 'Blame' points the finger at them.
ONCE AGAIN, and 'this' IS FOR 'those' who are NOT DEAF and BLIND here, 'this' HAPPENS and OCCURS BECAUSE of the CONNOTATION that comes WITH the word 'blame'.

ALSO, while one IS 'blaming' "another", and there WAS ABSOLUTELY NO 'fear' of being JUDGED, RIDICULED, HUMILIATED, NOR PUNISHED, NOR ANY 'past experience' of 'these things' HAD HAPPENED and OCCURRED, then absolutely NO one would even DENY their OWN 'authority NOR accountability'.

'you', people, ONLY DENY the 'things' that 'you' DO, FOR the 'fear' of the UNWANTED REPERCUSSIONS and RETRIBUTIONS.

LOL There WILL NOT BE, TO 'you', and there IS NOT, TO 'us', ANY DENYING AT ALL of 'that' what one HAS ACTUALLY DONE WHEN, and IF, the so-called 'finger IS POINTED'.

ALSO, HOW could so-called 'Blame' EVEN 'point THE finger, at ANY one'.

ONLY 'you', human beings, 'point YOUR fingers', AT "others", IN the name of 'blame' and/or 'blaming'.
Wizard22 wrote: Sun Jul 30, 2023 8:40 am Or consider the matters of Guilt and Shame. Are these not examples of a person blaming-oneself?
AGAIN, the CONNOTATIONS that COME WITH the word 'blame' MIGHT BE A VERY GOOD REASON TO JUST STOP 'laying blame' ON "each other", which OBVIOUSLY INCLUDES "your" OWN 'selves'.

Unless, OF COURSE, ANY one of 'you' thinks or BELIEVES that it IS a GOOD IDEA to KEEP 'laying blame' ON "yourselves".
Wizard22 wrote: Sun Jul 30, 2023 8:40 am Can people be wrong?
AGAIN, 'you' ASK the MOST SILLY and STUPID QUESTIONS "wizard22".

Can people be wrong IN REGARDS TO 'what', EXACTLY?
Wizard22 wrote: Sun Jul 30, 2023 8:40 am Can people lie?
Have 'you' KNOWN OF an adult human being who has NOT 'lied'?

If yes, then WHO, EXACTLY?
Wizard22 wrote: Sun Jul 30, 2023 8:40 am Can people take the blame for other people's crimes and failings?
'They' COULD. BUT, 'they' would be VERY FOOLISH and STUPID TO.

Although in SAYING 'this', 'the world' WOULD ALREADY BE a MUCH BETTER PLACE if adults TOOK 'the blame' FOR EVERY 'thing' that children DO.
Wizard22
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Re: Authority and Autonomy

Post by Wizard22 »

Iwannaplato wrote: Sun Jul 30, 2023 9:58 amWell, everyone justifies their blame, except for very honest people who can say something like 'I hate you right now, because X happened, but I have idea if that's fair.' Or the political equivalent. But otherwise pretty much everyone, like you, has blame, actively blames and then justifies that blame. So, how does one know one is blaming fairly, not being confirmation-biased, not blaming for near unconscious reasons and looking for justifcation anywhere one can find it, not blaming for reasons other than the one one justifies the blame with, not blaming just one agent when there are others and so on?

IOW if one reads the OP one gets the impression there is a problem with blaming. But now it seems like blame is ok as long as you have good justification.
So Justice then implies an 'accurate' sense or system of Blaming—of correctly/rightly/justly attributing Causes to Sources.

I believe Self-Consciousness and Self-Awareness are required, a rare trait in humanity or life in general. A person needs to "see himself the outside", outside one's own perspective, or from the perspective of others. Empathy is required. Otherwise a person is simply stuck in their own Biases, prejudice, and with contempt. An attack on your opinion, is then an attack on your person directly. This is why most appeal to Emotional arguments and use logical fallacies: Irrationality. This happens because people, most people, are viscerally attached to their opinions and beliefs. "To be wrong", is a personal attack. This is why most people have little tolerance for being considered 'wrong', and cannot detach their personal emotion and investment from their own beliefs/opinions.

It means that many 'strong' beliefs are not reasonable and rational, but unreasonable and irrational.

It means that most beliefs are believed-in, because of the imagined or actual, perceived Benefits of those beliefs, an expectation of Reward for holding certain beliefs.

Iwannaplato wrote: Sun Jul 30, 2023 9:58 amBlaming society is very general, blaming a faction in society less so, though certainly broader than blaming a person. But I have certainly gotten the impression you blame individual people on the Left, including saying they have no souls or morals.
When it comes to particularly atrocious or grievous crimes, yes, I believe some acts in life are Evil. Those who Cause children/boys to castrate themselves, or Ellen Page and other women to castrate her breasts...that's Evil. We may as well bring back Torture, if Western society and civilization has fallen this far. Evil has returned. I think the targeting of children is particularly heinous and crosses the line.

IOW, some Injustices must be violently rebuked.

Iwannaplato wrote: Sun Jul 30, 2023 9:58 amSure, car wrecks are good examples, especially if one wants to point out that blame can be spread out. Perhaps one driver was more at fault or so clearly did something wrong so on that level. But then I had a friend how went from engineer to emergency room doctor and he was outraged by how unsafe cars were made. Then we could blame a society that has facilitated the use of cars and not other forms of transportation. Then I'd need to get into the specifics of the case but police, drivers parents, the way the road laid out and maintained could all be brought to bear as potential causes. And not that any of these causes becomes the only cause, but it sure can be a mix.
At which different points is any human individual, or society, not a 'Causal' force? People deny their own authority and accountability, quickly, when 'Blame' points the finger at them.
Well, again, those that do. Others fall for blame when they shouldn't. You've already acknowledged this, but I think it's good to keep that idea fresh.
Or consider the matters of Guilt and Shame. Are these not examples of a person blaming-oneself?
Yes. Though they are not working through the issue. Regret is when one has worked through. Guilt is this weird mixed half dead state. I am bad because I did X. You haven't resolved it. You haven't really forgiven yourself and noted that you've learned and you probably haven't forgiven the other person for noticed what an ass you were.
Can people be wrong? Can people lie? Can people take the blame for other people's crimes and failings?
3 yesses.
Causality is a creative process in its first imagining. Whenever any person, ever, considers sources for any cause, they have to make estimations, guess about and predict it. If somebody is throwing rocks or shooting arrows at you, you trace them back to their direction and guess its origin from there. This is a very complex mental process. Society sees it fit for 'experts' to source-out the causes in general. In Science, this is "Physics". In Society, this is Law and Judgment. Psychology studies behavioral causes and disruptions of mental health. But Philosophy, I believe, undermines all of these, and goes to any or every possible Source. Philosophy and Religion attempt to examine "First Cause", Origin, and Creation.

So the sourcing requires more thought, rationality, and reasoning, than the other studies and sciences.
Wizard22
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Re: Authority and Autonomy

Post by Wizard22 »

Age wrote: Sun Jul 30, 2023 10:23 am
Wizard22 wrote: Sun Jul 30, 2023 8:40 amBlame does damage one's Autonomy when a person cannot attribute Causes to its Sources.
There is SO MUCH TO UNPACK and UNRAVEL here.

1. WHY do you USE capital letters at the beginning of SOME words?
FOR the SAME reason YOU capitalize SOME words AND not OTHERS.

Age wrote: Sun Jul 30, 2023 10:23 am2. HOW does 'blame' supposedly damage one's so-called 'Autonomy'?
Because you damage your Authority when you demonstrate to others, the rest of society, that your Judgment is flawed and cannot be trusted.

Society loses confidence in your core Human-ability.

Age wrote: Sun Jul 30, 2023 10:23 am3. What is the 'its' word REFERRING TO, EXACTLY?
Anything

Age wrote: Sun Jul 30, 2023 10:23 am4. The so-called 'Sources' of 'what', EXACTLY?
Everything

Age wrote: Sun Jul 30, 2023 10:23 am5. The 'cause', or so-called 'Causes' of ALL 'things' IS FUNDAMENTALLY the EXACT SAME 'thing/s'.
No, it's not

Age wrote: Sun Jul 30, 2023 10:23 am6. WHY ONLY WHEN a person can NOT attribute so-called 'Causes' to SOME so-called 'Sources' THEN 'blame', supposedly, does damage one's so-called 'Autonomy'?
Because identifying Causality, correctly, is paramount in human observation and Judgment.

It's about making Choices in life.
Iwannaplato
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Re: Authority and Autonomy

Post by Iwannaplato »

Wizard22 wrote: Sun Jul 30, 2023 12:39 pm So Justice then implies an 'accurate' sense or system of Blaming—of correctly/rightly/justly attributing Causes to Sources.
Yes, if you take human emotions out of it you could look at it as preventing future unwanted events. So, the rapist is stopped from raping. This avoids discussions of free will/determinism and ultimate causes and the like.
I believe Self-Consciousness and Self-Awareness are required, a rare trait in humanity or life in general.
Or skill at introspection and reflection + self-awareness.
A person needs to "see himself the outside", outside one's own perspective, or from the perspective of others. Empathy is required.
Sure.
Otherwise a person is simply stuck in their own Biases, prejudice, and with contempt. An attack on your opinion, is then an attack on your person directly. This is why most appeal to Emotional arguments and use logical fallacies: Irrationality. This happens because people, most people, are viscerally attached to their opinions and beliefs. "To be wrong", is a personal attack. This is why most people have little tolerance for being considered 'wrong', and cannot detach their personal emotion and investment from their own beliefs/opinions.
And they can even use good arguments that actually had little to do with their attitude/act/belief.
It means that many 'strong' beliefs are not reasonable and rational, but unreasonable and irrational.
I'd avoid using irrational for beliefs - though many other do not avoid that - because I think rationality and its opposite are about processes not the conclusions.
It means that most beliefs are believed-in, because of the imagined or actual, perceived Benefits of those beliefs, an expectation of Reward for holding certain beliefs.
Sounds possible.
When it comes to particularly atrocious or grievous crimes, yes, I believe some acts in life are Evil. Those who Cause children/boys to castrate themselves, or Ellen Page and other women to castrate her breasts...that's Evil. We may as well bring back Torture, if Western society and civilization has fallen this far. Evil has returned. I think the targeting of children is particularly heinous and crosses the line.

IOW, some Injustices must be violently rebuked.
OK
But Philosophy, I believe, undermines all of these, and goes to any or every possible Source. Philosophy and Religion attempt to examine "First Cause", Origin, and Creation.
That certainly happens in philosophy but all the things you listed under psychology, Law, Justice, Physics...those are all topics in philosophy. Philosophy as a subject area does not have some unified position like: You cannot blame him you must determine if it was the Big Bang or God who set in motion a chain of dominoes. There is no such general philosophy position. Some philosopher may have that kind of position. I don't think Religion does this either, though some religions will tend more in that direction than you may like. I mean, many religions are clearly not against blaming and punishing individuals for their acts.
So the sourcing requires more thought, rationality, and reasoning, than the other studies and sciences.
Sure. And even after all of that, we're still fallible and maybe even fundamentally confused in some way. Not that that stops me from blaming.
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