Christianity

[Gary Childress]

IC. I think you're a good person and if God loves anyone, then he should probably love you. Me, I don't think I could love God if my soul depended on it (and maybe it does). I'm too wrapped up in this world, too focused on things I'm missing or have missed out on in this life. I can't think of anything that would make me happier than to be with a woman who loves me and who I can love and, then, in the end, die a reasonably painless death (perhaps suddenly in my sleep). What more could a mortal wish for?

Not to be a mere mortal. To have something beyond the womb and the tomb to live for.

Be a realist about this, Gary. What are your prospects for those things you're grasping for, given your age, situation and stage of life? How's it all going to play out, all things being equal? Are you going to find those things, exceed your past happiness in those things, and find them infinitely satisfying as you slide past middle age into your older years? Can an adult play video games forever, and find his soul filled?

I'm not trying to discourage you, Gary, though I know that thought will. I'm trying to make you stare reality in the face, and take realistic steps to make your life better. It is not for no reason that Jesus asked us, "What shall it profit a man, if he gains the whole world and loses his own soul?"

Today, you get video games and indiscriminate sexual gratification; tomorrow, you get aging, decline, irrelevance to more and more of the world, and (you hope) eventually a painless death. Where does it all take you, Gary? Are you really so enthused about that prospect that you can't bring yourself to wish for anything better...like meaning, purpose, significant activities, doing social good, forming a stable relationship, gaining mental clarity, a death that matters and a far better life to follow?

It's up to you, of course. But is it possible you've put the bar of your expectations far, far too low?

I'm sure God loves you, IC. I'm sure you'll go to this heaven you seek. However, we believe in different things, IC. I want to fill my heart with the love of a good woman and you want to fill yours with the love of God. To each his own. I think Marcus Aurelius' quote from Phyllo sums things up adequately. As long as we aren't running around causing serious injustices, then I see no reason to worry about God's acceptance of me or not unless he is an unjust God. Why should God care if I believe in/worship him or not? What is he going to do, send me to hell? I haven't done anything seriously wrong in this world. There are much greater criminals out there, bigger fish to fry. I would assume God should be more concerned with them and not so much with a lonely, lovestruck daydreamer. I feel like you are trying to incriminate me in spite of an otherwise good track record.

As far as the prospects for finding a good woman, I don't know if it's "realistic" or not. If I don't find one, then at least the quest for it fills me with purpose and keeps me out of trouble for the most part. I play fair and stay out of trouble. That should be sufficient for any God worthy of worship. To be honest, ever since I tried out Christianity I've had nothing but grief. Grief over not being good enough for God. I regret making the mistake of introducing myself to it. It seems more like a pathology or illness. I'd rather find a more agreeable outlet for spirituality. I have other interests than relentlessly reading a 2000-year-old book looking for guidance on what to do.

[Immanuel Can]

I'm sure God loves you, IC. I'm sure you'll go to this heaven you seek. However, we believe in different things, IC. I want to fill my heart with the love of a good woman and you want to fill yours with the love of God. To each his own.

I guess we'll see which works out.

I think Marcus Aurelius' quote from Phyllo sums things up adequately. As long as we aren't running around causing serious injustices, then I see no reason to worry about God's acceptance of me or not unless he is an unjust God.

Are you a perfect man? You're the first I've met.

I feel like you are trying to incriminate me in spite of an otherwise good track record.

I cannot. I'm not the judge. What you have done or not done in your life, I cannot say...and I certainly can't speak to the wholesomeness or unwholesomeness of your inner thoughts and dispositions, either. Only God can do that, if He is so inclined. And what He says is summed up in Romans 3:23.

Grief over not being good enough for God.

Well, if you thought you were, you'd be wrong. So would anybody.

That's the point: nobody's "good enough" for God. God has to make us "good enough" for fellowship with Him, or we'll just never be there. But if you're so sure, as you said above, that God's justice could not possibly rightly sentence you, what would also make you think you were "not good enough"? You'd have to be. There would be nothing capable of judgement in you.

Which statement do you actually think is the truth -- that Gary has a perfect right to "God's acceptance" already, or that Gary is "not good enough for God"? I can't make both of those work.

[Gary Childress]

I'm sure God loves you, IC. I'm sure you'll go to this heaven you seek. However, we believe in different things, IC. I want to fill my heart with the love of a good woman and you want to fill yours with the love of God. To each his own.

I guess we'll see which works out.

I think Marcus Aurelius' quote from Phyllo sums things up adequately. As long as we aren't running around causing serious injustices, then I see no reason to worry about God's acceptance of me or not unless he is an unjust God.

Are you a perfect man? You're the first I've met.

I feel like you are trying to incriminate me in spite of an otherwise good track record.

I cannot. I'm not the judge. What you have done or not done in your life, I cannot say...and I certainly can't speak to the wholesomeness or unwholesomeness of your inner thoughts and dispositions, either. Only God can do that, if He is so inclined. And what He says is summed up in Romans 3:23.

Grief over not being good enough for God.

Well, if you thought you were, you'd be wrong. So would anybody.

That's the point: nobody's "good enough" for God. God has to make us "good enough" for fellowship with Him, or we'll just never be there. But if you're so sure, as you said above, that God's justice could not possibly rightly sentence you, what would also make you think you were "not good enough"? You'd have to be. There would be nothing capable of judgement in you.

Which statement do you actually think is the truth -- that Gary has a perfect right to "God's acceptance" already, or that Gary is "not good enough for God"? I can't make both of those work.

I'll sort it out for you, then. According to your view, I seem to be not good enough for God because I don't worship him or follow the program of the churches. I see little reason why I am not good enough. You ask if I'm perfect; certainly not, still I'm a lot better than the likes of Paul or Moses. Don't you have anything better to do than make perfectly fine people feel bad about themselves?

[Harbal]

I'm not susceptible to persuasion;

Ah. Now we've got something.

A person who is "not susceptible to persuasion" is, by Biblical definition, guilty of what is called "willful unbelief," not just ordinary "not knowing" or "not believing." That is to say, that the person COULD know, and SHOULD know, but refuses to know.

The bad news is that nobody enters the Kingdom of God in a state of willful unbelief. (Heb. 3:19, for example)

So now we can answer your question, or something like it: yes, I think that's fair. I think we should all get exactly what we choose, in that regard.

Well I wouldn't be choosing to suffer, I would be choosing not to accept a particular belief system. But you've given me an answer, which is all I asked for.

[Gary Childress]

I'm sure God loves you, IC. I'm sure you'll go to this heaven you seek. However, we believe in different things, IC. I want to fill my heart with the love of a good woman and you want to fill yours with the love of God. To each his own.

I guess we'll see which works out.

Or we may find that neither one works out any better than the other. Perhaps we'll both go to heaven or else we'll both go to oblivion. In any case, I see little reason to think that I'll go to hell just for the reason of not worshiping God. Or is heaven like some of these stupid bars they have today where there's a "VIP room" separate from the rest of the 'ordinary' customers--where the super good won't have to associate with the less good?

[Immanuel Can]

Which statement do you actually think is the truth -- that Gary has a perfect right to "God's acceptance" already, or that Gary is "not good enough for God"? I can't make both of those work.

I'll sort it out for you, then. According to your view, I seem to be not good enough for God because I don't worship him or follow the program of the churches. I see little reason why I am not good enough.

Okay, then...why did you have the feeling you were "not good enough," then, in the first place?

You ask if I'm perfect; certainly not, still I'm a lot better than the likes of Paul or Moses. Don't you have anything better to do than make perfectly fine people feel bad about themselves?

One fallen man compares himself with two others, and finds his judgment favourable to himself...can we be terribly surprised, Gary?

But it's not the standard of men by which you are judged. It's not a "comparative" exercise. Each one of us stands before God alone...and we don't get to bring a lawyer. The question is, "What is Gary's relationship to God?" And it's the only question that determines what happens in the judgment.

That's what you don't get yet: there are only two types of human beings...unrepentant sinners, and forgiven sinners. There are no non-sinners, no impeccably righteous men, who, because of their personal unimpeachable virtue, deserve -- of their own merits -- to march unimpeded into the presence of God and demand his reception of them.

But a person can try that strategy. They can come before God, and say, "Well, You have no right to condemn me on any point, because I'm really a wonderful person." And if they did, and if it were true (though it never is), the truthful answer from God would be, "What is that to Me? You and I have no relationship. Your righteousness is your own, and your interest in me is zero. Go where you wish to go, to places where I am not."

So the outcome is the same. Plead your own righteousness, and even if you win, all you get is separation from God. Because either way, the issue is not your righteous deeds, but your relationship to God.

[Gary Childress]

Which statement do you actually think is the truth -- that Gary has a perfect right to "God's acceptance" already, or that Gary is "not good enough for God"? I can't make both of those work.

I'll sort it out for you, then. According to your view, I seem to be not good enough for God because I don't worship him or follow the program of the churches. I see little reason why I am not good enough.

Okay, then...why did you have the feeling you were "not good enough," then, in the first place?

BECAUSE ACCORDING TO THE QUOTE YOU PULLED FROM HEBREWS I WON'T GO TO HEAVEN. Do you ever read your own posts???

[Immanuel Can]

I'm not susceptible to persuasion;

Ah. Now we've got something.

A person who is "not susceptible to persuasion" is, by Biblical definition, guilty of what is called "willful unbelief," not just ordinary "not knowing" or "not believing." That is to say, that the person COULD know, and SHOULD know, but refuses to know.

The bad news is that nobody enters the Kingdom of God in a state of willful unbelief. (Heb. 3:19, for example)

So now we can answer your question, or something like it: yes, I think that's fair. I think we should all get exactly what we choose, in that regard.

Well I wouldn't be choosing to suffer, I would be choosing not to accept a particular belief system. But you've given me an answer, which is all I asked for.

One can choose one's course. But the consequences of choice always follow.

Too many people make the choice without looking at the consequences. If they did, they's say, as you say, "I would never choose that." But they want the proximal advantages of rejecting God now, and give no thought for the natural consequences of that decision later. Hence, they continue to make wretched choices that give them what they want in the short term, and nothing they should ever want in the long. That's human nature. We are all short-term and selfish in the immediate, but are that way at our own expense in the long term.

[Immanuel Can]

I'll sort it out for you, then. According to your view, I seem to be not good enough for God because I don't worship him or follow the program of the churches. I see little reason why I am not good enough.

Okay, then...why did you have the feeling you were "not good enough," then, in the first place?

BECAUSE ACCORDING TO THE QUOTE YOU PULLED FROM HEBREWS I WON'T GO TO HEAVEN. Do you ever read your own posts???

But you say you don't believe that.

If you don't, then why the anxiety? Are you, to quote Hamlet, "frighted with false fire"?

[Gary Childress]

Okay, then...why did you have the feeling you were "not good enough," then, in the first place?

BECAUSE ACCORDING TO THE QUOTE YOU PULLED FROM HEBREWS I WON'T GO TO HEAVEN. Do you ever read your own posts???

But you say you don't believe that.

If you don't, then why the anxiety? Are you, to quote Hamlet, "frighted with false fire"?

I'm not anxious, I'm frustrated trying to explain the obvious to you. You act like you don't even know what you've written.

[Immanuel Can]

BECAUSE ACCORDING TO THE QUOTE YOU PULLED FROM HEBREWS I WON'T GO TO HEAVEN. Do you ever read your own posts???

But you say you don't believe that.

If you don't, then why the anxiety? Are you, to quote Hamlet, "frighted with false fire"?

I'm not anxious, I'm frustrated trying to explain the obvious to you. You act like you don't even know what you've written.

I know what I've written. And I know I believe it. But it's not about what I believe, so much as it's about what you do. If you really don't believe what I believe, there is no cause for anxiety...and yet, anxiety you have.

So what does that tell you about what you really believe?

[Gary Childress]

But you say you don't believe that.

If you don't, then why the anxiety? Are you, to quote Hamlet, "frighted with false fire"?

I'm not anxious, I'm frustrated trying to explain the obvious to you. You act like you don't even know what you've written.

I know what I've written. And I know I believe it. But it's not about what I believe, so much as it's about what you do. If you really don't believe what I believe, there is no cause for anxiety...and yet, anxiety you have.

So what does that tell you about what you really believe?

Why do you say I have anxiety?

[Gary Childress]

Long story short, IC. I'm sure we'll both go to heaven or else oblivion along with almost everyone else. If Paul can make it, we should all be pretty good. I see little reason to think otherwise. Of course, I don't know you either. Perhaps you've got some things you're not telling me about as well. Either way, I wish you the best. I don't have anything against you other than your perception that I'm not worthy of God or whatever that book of the holy babble tells you to believe.

[Immanuel Can]

I'm not anxious, I'm frustrated trying to explain the obvious to you. You act like you don't even know what you've written.

I know what I've written. And I know I believe it. But it's not about what I believe, so much as it's about what you do. If you really don't believe what I believe, there is no cause for anxiety...and yet, anxiety you have.

So what does that tell you about what you really believe?

Why do you say I have anxiety?

Don't you? It seems to me that you do. But I'll be corrected on that, if it's not true.

However, if you're not anxious, then what's your problem with people telling you what they believe, and you don't?

[Gary Childress]

I know what I've written. And I know I believe it. But it's not about what I believe, so much as it's about what you do. If you really don't believe what I believe, there is no cause for anxiety...and yet, anxiety you have.

So what does that tell you about what you really believe?

Why do you say I have anxiety?

Don't you? It seems to me that you do. But I'll be corrected on that, if it's not true.

However, if you're not anxious, then what's your problem with people telling you what they believe, and you don't?

I should ask the same of you, then. Why are you anxious? You seem to have a problem with what I believe. According to your own criteria you must be anxious. What are you anxious about?