Christianity

[seeds]

...I have said (I have proposed it as possible) that at the moment of death any given soul, and let's say one with a heavy burden or a debt that must be paid, or a sentence (punishment, consequence) that must be served, could experience in a virtual sort of way entire sequences of events in a dream-realm, that nontheless would be to that individual just as real as this life is, any number of different episodes that would bring that person to a realm of higher understanding. And that, to me, is through learning about the consequences of what we do (and do not do)....

You made some excellent points in your overall post, Alexis, and I do understand what you are saying, however, I have a somewhat dramatically different take on our situation.

Please forgive me for constantly speaking in metaphors, but I personally think that the higher and eternal context of reality we will find ourselves in after we have crossed the threshold of death, will be so profoundly more important and advanced relative to our present situation,...

...that it will render everything we thought, said, or done while on earth with about as much relevance as that of our kicking and thrashing in the amniotic water of our mother's womb.

In other words, just as we bore no guilt for our actions in our human mother's womb, likewise we will bear no guilt (or suffer any post-death consequences or punishments) for our actions in the womb of our ultimate parent (God).
_______

[Immanuel Can]

I told you I would prefer oblivion. Why wouldn't YHWH grant me that?

I can't tell you, Gary; I don't know, for sure. What we are told is that souls are not destructible in that way. I don't know exactly why, but possibly we are something much more important than we generally realize.

[Gary Childress]

I don't want to be around Yahweh.

There it is, again.

The fervent wish for Hell. You wouldn't think anybody could have it; but apparently, they can.

I have it because I have no other choice but to turn away from Yahweh. From what I have seen, YHWH is an unforgiving, vengeful, and unjust God. I can't worship a God like that. I need to look for alternatives. I prefer a God who is kind and understanding toward us mere mortals. I can't worship what appears to me to be a monster. I tried it and I couldn't keep it going. I don't have an ounce of 'bow down to Yahweh' in me. It's just not there. And if I would be judged harshly by YHWH after all I've been through in life, then I'd rather not be anywhere near that guy. I'll take oblivion as the only acceptable alternative--if he will even grant me that much.

[Gary Childress]

But thank you for all the very insightful discussions we've had, IC. It's been a decent way of passing time in the absence of anything more worthwhile to do. I wish I could have better-informed discussions with you, however, my brain has eroded considerably in its ability to read, remember and comprehend more difficult or lengthy passages. Such is life on meds. It is what it is and there doesn't seem to be a whole lot that our current level of knowledge can achieve to rectify the situation.

[Immanuel Can]

I don't want to be around Yahweh.

There it is, again.

The fervent wish for Hell. You wouldn't think anybody could have it; but apparently, they can.

I have it because I have no other choice but to turn away from Yahweh.

There's always a choice. That's the one plea we can never make.

I prefer a God who is kind and understanding toward us mere mortals.

But He is. That's what salvation is all about, Gary. As Peter puts it,

"The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not willing for any to perish, but for all to come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come..." (2 Peter 3:9-10)

We can look at the fact that God has not judged the Earth yet, and say, "It means He is unjust: He winks at sin, and He's not going to judge, ever." Or we can look at that fact, and say, "How gracious He is, to hold back the judgment of evil until the greatest number of people can be forgiven and saved."

How we choose to look at it says everything about our attitude to God. It also says everything about what we can expect to get.

[Immanuel Can]

Such is life on meds. It is what it is and there doesn't seem to be a whole lot that our current level of knowledge can achieve to rectify the situation.

Yeah, it's a grim reality. Meds just dull things, slow them down, and artificially change moods...but they don't change circumstances, teach lessons, or fix anything. They reduce the pain, but also the personality, the intelligence, and the feeling of being alive.

Sounds like you need a new solution.

[iambiguous]

Hilarously slanted asking, Biggie. I can't answer that question in the bigoted form in which it's raised.

Henry has a "contraption" arugment, you say? So I'm supposed to just swallow an insult to his view, in order to get to answering? And Christianity is a "spiritual contraption argument", you say? So I'm supposed to accept an insult to my own belief system too?

So you don't really want a serious answer? You want to slide a bigoted statement past me, and have me respond? And, no doubt, accuse me of being "afraid" when I decline?

No such luck. I'll answer your question very forthrightly. But first, let's see you rephrase it like a reasonable and polite human being would do...

Seriously though, what's "bigoted" about the points I raise?

You call your opponents' views mere "contraptions". But there's no reason they have to grant you your prejudicial characterizations.

So now, reword your question and make it polite...or don't. And get an answer, or don't...according to what you, yourself, choose to do.

Okay, "for entertainment" it is then.

[Gary Childress]

There it is, again.

The fervent wish for Hell. You wouldn't think anybody could have it; but apparently, they can.

I have it because I have no other choice but to turn away from Yahweh.

There's always a choice. That's the one plea we can never make.

I prefer a God who is kind and understanding toward us mere mortals.

But He is. That's what salvation is all about, Gary. As Peter puts it,

"The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not willing for any to perish, but for all to come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come..." (2 Peter 3:9-10)

We can look at the fact that God has not judged the Earth yet, and say, "It means He is unjust: He winks at sin, and He's not going to judge, ever." Or we can look at that fact, and say, "How gracious He is, to hold back the judgment of evil until the greatest number of people can be forgiven and saved."

How we choose to look at it says everything about our attitude to God. It also says everything about what we can expect to get.

If God is kind and understanding, then he will be kind and understanding when I say I am angry at him.

[iambiguous]

I wish, when I have someone in the penalty box, their quoted crap would be as invisible as their posts.

Anyway, Mannie, just tell the lil pissant yes, unless Henry repents, accepts Christ as the way, he'll burn in hell forever & ever.

I promise you: it will not bother me if you do.

The penalty box!!!

IC, remind him that there is no penalty box more ominous than the one that revolves around spending all of eternity in Hell.

Now, you either take that seriously or you don't. And, if you do, you might consider putting aside the fact that while, politically, you and henry are both two peas in a pod, he is still going to burn in agony until...the end of time?

The fact that you are bosom buddies politically and that henry doesn't mind if you warn him he will burn in Hell for all of eternity if he refuses to accept Jesus Christ as his personal savior, doesn't make the fact of it any less relevant.

Right?

I mean, how seriously can others take your belief that the Christian God does in fact reside in Heaven with an attitude like that?

[Immanuel Can]

If God is kind and understanding, then he will be kind and understanding when I say I am angry at him.

He will be.

In fact, the Bible shows that such famous people like Moses, Abraham, Isaiah, David, Thomas and a host of others were, at times, really unsure of what God was up to, and asked Him some pretty challenging questions about His justice or His love. Habakkuk, for example, asked, "How can you look with favour on the wicked?" Job asked, "Why am I suffering, when I have not done anything wrong?" while David asked, "How could you forsake me?" These are not light or unfelt questions. These are not academic issues. These are real men, looking for real answers, and asking tough questions.

But they asked in order to be answered. They didn't ask because they had no faith in God, but because they did have faith. They couldn't reconcile their belief in a good God with what was happening to them at the moment, and so they asked God to explain, to justify His ways, to do differently for them.

So it's all about attitude, in the end. God's certainly not afraid of tough questions: He's averse to catering to disbelief, to cynicism and to insults, though. God bows to our need, but He never stoops to beg our approval.

But here's the encouraging thing. God the Almighty is open to questioning conversations. But to get one, you have to open up the conversation yourself. And it's necessary to decide what attitude you want to come with...will it be pure cynicism or at least a modicum of readiness to be convinced?

[Immanuel Can]

IC, remind him...

I take questions...no loaded ones...and comments...but no vile, prejudicial or stupid ones...and no orders.

What have you got, that fits that profile?

[iambiguous]

The penalty box!!!

IC, remind him that there is no penalty box more ominous than the one that revolves around spending all of eternity in Hell.

Now, you either take that seriously or you don't. And, if you do, you might consider putting aside the fact that while, politically, you and henry are both two peas in a pod, he is still going to burn in agony until...the end of time?

The fact that you are bosom buddies politically and that henry doesn't mind if you warn him he will burn in Hell for all of eternity if he refuses to accept Jesus Christ as his personal savior, doesn't make the fact of it any less relevant.

Right?

I mean, how seriously can others take your belief that the Christian God does in fact reside in Heaven with an attitude like that?

I take questions...no loaded ones...and comments...but no vile, prejudicial or stupid ones...and no orders.

What have you got, that fits that profile?

Let's start at the top. The first Commandment:

Exodus 20:1-3 “And God spoke all these words, saying, ‘I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery. You shall have no other gods before me.'”

Okay, you tell me [and henry]: does the Deist God count?

Or, on Judgment Day, will God grant henry immortality and salvation because He happens to share his own views about things like bazookas. He happens to define "natural right" "life" "liberty" and "property" just as the Deist God created henry to define them.

[Immanuel Can]

Let's start at the top. The first Commandment:

Exodus 20:1-3 “And God spoke all these words, saying, ‘I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery. You shall have no other gods before me.'”

Okay, you tell me [and henry]: does the Deist God count?

You have the commandment. How do you read it?

Isn't it very obvious that the commandment allows that there is but one God? So it rules out making up alternate gods, or adding gods, to the God of Israel.

Now, somebody who takes that commandment can discuss the nature and character of that God, or His expectations, and even His identity. What's clear, if we take that commandment seriously, is that no one is permitted to be either an Atheist or a Polytheist. Nor is such a one going to believe in a God that is not the God of that particular commandment...assuming he takes it as a "commandment."

As to whether or not the God of the Bible, and hence of that commandment, is Henry's God, you'll have to ask Henry. It's not my job to declare that for him; he is of age and capability to speak to that.

[henry quirk]

That's a conversation for me and Henry...for whom I have a lot of respect.

Wow, Henry must be a cool guy.

[henry quirk]

As to whether or not the God of the Bible, and hence of that commandment, is Henry's God, you'll have to ask Henry.

Henry sez no, it appears not.

Henry wonders since I don't actually worship God, but merely recognize Him, am I in violation of the 1st commandment?

Henry sez The Big Book of Deism is silent on the matter.

Henry asks what do you think, biggy, am I goin' to hell?

Henry opines if I'm goin' then for sure so are you, biggy...bet you'll get there first, fat boy.

Henry mocks jiggle in terror, biggy, jiggle in terror!