Christianity

[Gary Childress]

...why did I have to lose 30 years (and counting) of my life to anti-psychotics and anti-depressants (which don't work except to dull the mind BTW)?

That's hard. I know. Not personally, but somebody I knew many years ago went through that. It's bloody awful. Sorry you faced it. She survived, but it was truly horrible.

But of course, if there's no God, there's no "why." To put it crassly, as they say, "Sh.. happens." Imagine you're in an indifferent universe, one created by the merely material processes of the Big Bang plus time plus chance; to what will you apply for the answer, "Why?"

That dooms you to remain forever unanswered. But If God is just, there might be an answer yet to come, and I trust it will.

And it might not even actually be your "fault," as it turns out. There's a real danger in people who think every adversity that comes along must mean God is angry. "Justice" Isn't that simple to read; it's complex, because there's many of us here, and many factors in play; all of them have to be taken into account before we can pronounce with any finality on what "justice" requires. Free will means that people don't just hurt themselves; they can hurt others, too. And sin affects all of creation, not just the bad people. Anybody who thinks the relationship between deserving and suffering is simple and readable hasn't lived long...or hasn't grown up. But that's not us, right?

In the case of my friend, she was molested as a child, but never told, so far as I've been able to find. But the doctors diagnosed her as "manic-depressive" and "bipolar." And she went through hells of malpractice, as they dumped everything onto her to "cure" her "disease." And under all that, she was a truly amazing person.

So it might be that the mismedication you experienced was a product of unethical doctors, and the depression a result of somebody's mistreatment of you. And their justice, like yours, might be still-to-come.

It's not the fault of doctors. They've treated me with the best meds they have in the best way they know how. I'm the victim of a perpetrator-less evil. That's all I have to work with--unless I hold God accountable. Before the advent of those meds, I would have been locked up in a hotel with bars on the windows because being out on the streets on my own would just as readily have ended me up in disaster. I don't live. I exist. That's about it. As I say, spending eternity with Yahweh is not going to bring me or anyone else who's had their life screwed back to wholeness.

[Gary Childress]

The only thing I have left to do in life is to convince everyone who worships Yahweh that they're wasting their time as far as I can tell. But to each his own. Maybe you're right and maybe you'll spend eternity in the divine presence. Just leave me out of it. I want no part of Yahweh.

[Immanuel Can]

The obvious problem for you, here, of course, is that the answer you expect us to arrive at - that this is outrageously unjust

Is that the conclusion you do come to? Fine.

How do you prove you're right, and the people in Northern Pakistan are wrong?

It's really quite fascinating how much of a sophist you are.

Thank you. I appreciate you apprising my arguments as "sophisticated."

The point is that you presented this example because you believe that the Northern Pakistan people behave unjustly in this respect, and that we would all agree with you, because we come from the same Judeo-Christian perspective as you

Not at all, Harry.

Why would I take it for granted that you are a "Judeo-Christian" kind of moralizer? I suppose I could think that because you were raised in a "Judeo-Christian" society, but I have a feeling you're smart enough to pull yourself mentally out of that headspace...if that's what you think you should do. And given your antipathy to the Jewish and Christian God, why would I suppose you had any duty to plug for "Judeo-Christian" morality?

No, you can say whatever you want: I will not prejudge. All I need from you is a reason, totally within the confines of your own worldview, why the people in Northern Pakistan are wrong, and you are right.

[Immanuel Can]

The only thing I have left to do in life is to convince everyone who worships Yahweh that they're wasting their time as far as I can tell.

Now, why would you want to do that?

After all, if you believe that God is an illusion, why not leave people to their happy illusions, since there's no such thing as objective right and wrong anyway? That seems kind of gratutously hostile to other human beings, doesn't it?

Maybe you're right and maybe you'll spend eternity in the divine presence.

If you are going to do that, you will know you are. If you don't know that you are, you're not.

I John 5:13 -- "These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life."

Just leave me out of it. I want no part of Yahweh.

And sometimes people tell me, "Nobody would freely choose Hell" !

Yet that is exactly what that declaration models. It shows that not only do some people choose a lost eternity, they rush to it with open arms, sometimes. It's quite breathtaking that they do...and unnecessary that they do.

But they do.

[Gary Childress]

The only thing I have left to do in life is to convince everyone who worships Yahweh that they're wasting their time as far as I can tell.

Now, why would you want to do that?

After all, if you believe that God is an illusion, why not leave people to their happy illusions, since there's no such thing as objective right and wrong anyway? That seems kind of gratutously hostile to other human beings, doesn't it?

Maybe you're right and maybe you'll spend eternity in the divine presence.

If you are going to do that, you will know you are. If you don't know that you are, you're not.

I John 5:13 -- "These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life."

Just leave me out of it. I want no part of Yahweh.

And sometimes people tell me, "Nobody would freely choose Hell" !

Yet that is exactly what that declaration models. It shows that not only do some people choose a lost eternity, they rush to it with open arms, sometimes. It's quite breathtaking that they do...and unnecessary that they do.

But they do.

I figured you wouldn't understand.

[Immanuel Can]

It's not the fault of doctors. They've treated me with the best meds they have in the best way they know how.

I'm glad to here it. That was not my friend's case. Their incompetence cost her dearly.

I'm the victim of a perpetrator-less evil.

I doubt it. But we can see, when God tallies the accounts.

As I say, spending eternity with Yahweh is not going to bring me or anyone else who's had their life screwed back to wholeness.

Actually, that's exactly what it will do.

Eternity is a long time, Gary. Life is short. We lose that perspective, because this life is all we know right now. But our limitations of knowledge are not the limits of truth or reality. And the purpose of the new birth is to remake the mind, and the total person, and permanently.

Think it over: that may be just want you really want.

[Immanuel Can]

The only thing I have left to do in life is to convince everyone who worships Yahweh that they're wasting their time as far as I can tell.

Now, why would you want to do that?

After all, if you believe that God is an illusion, why not leave people to their happy illusions, since there's no such thing as objective right and wrong anyway? That seems kind of gratutously hostile to other human beings, doesn't it?

Maybe you're right and maybe you'll spend eternity in the divine presence.

If you are going to do that, you will know you are. If you don't know that you are, you're not.

I John 5:13 -- "These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life."

Just leave me out of it. I want no part of Yahweh.

And sometimes people tell me, "Nobody would freely choose Hell" !

Yet that is exactly what that declaration models. It shows that not only do some people choose a lost eternity, they rush to it with open arms, sometimes. It's quite breathtaking that they do...and unnecessary that they do.

But they do.

I figured you wouldn't understand.

You're right: I don't "understand" the self-destructive impulse by which people think they can "get back at" God by disbelieving in Him, or worse, by lashing out against Him. And I don't "understand" the big rush to Hell.

But Jesus told us to expect both. So I do.

[iambiguous]

Yo, IC!

Seriously, what say you:

Note to Immanuel Can:

Does henry's intellectual contraption argument above comport with your own spiritual contraption argument regarding Christianity?

Hilarously slanted asking, Biggie. I can't answer that question in the bigoted form in which it's raised.

Henry has a "contraption" arugment, you say? So I'm supposed to just swallow an insult to his view, in order to get to answering? And Christianity is a "spiritual contraption argument", you say? So I'm supposed to accept an insult to my own belief system too?

So you don't really want a serious answer? You want to slide a bigoted statement past me, and have me respond? And, no doubt, accuse me of being "afraid" when I decline?

No such luck. I'll answer your question very forthrightly. But first, let's see you rephrase it like a reasonable and polite human being would do...

Absolutely shameless!!!

But, okay, let's just accept that no one here in his or her right mind would sustain an exchange with you other than as...entertainment?

Seriously though, what's "bigoted" about the points I raise? Either henry's point above is a reflection of Jesus Christ's own assessment of "a natural right to life, liberty, and property" or it isn't. And, if it is, you can either quote Christ from the Bible confirming it or you can't.

And henry either will burn in Hell for eternity if he doesn't accept Christ as his own personal savior or he won't.

Henry has a "contraption" arugment, you say? So I'm supposed to just swallow an insult to his view, in order to get to answering? And Christianity is a "spiritual contraption argument", you say? So I'm supposed to accept an insult to my own belief system too?

Come on, no matter what the issue is, if someone here doesn't share henry's own political prejudices they become "morons".

Just ask him.

And they become morons because they refuse to agree with his own definition regarding the meaning of words like "natural right" "life", "liberty", and "property".

Just ask him.

The only difference with henry is that he derives the meaning of these words from the Deist God who created him in order that he "follow the dictates of reason and nature" along the One True Path. His.

Just ask him.

Also, that he takes this "right makes might" mantra really, really seriously. All the way to Ruby Ridge in fact. Again, no "moderation, negotiation and compromise" crap for him and his own arrogant, autocratic, authoritarian ilk.

[Gary Childress]

Now, why would you want to do that?

After all, if you believe that God is an illusion, why not leave people to their happy illusions, since there's no such thing as objective right and wrong anyway? That seems kind of gratutously hostile to other human beings, doesn't it?


If you are going to do that, you will know you are. If you don't know that you are, you're not.

I John 5:13 -- "These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life."


And sometimes people tell me, "Nobody would freely choose Hell" !

Yet that is exactly what that declaration models. It shows that not only do some people choose a lost eternity, they rush to it with open arms, sometimes. It's quite breathtaking that they do...and unnecessary that they do.

But they do.

I figured you wouldn't understand.

You're right: I don't "understand" the self-destructive impulse by which people think they can "get back at" God by disbelieving in Him, or worse, by lashing out against Him. And I don't "understand" the big rush to Hell.

But Jesus told us to expect both. So I do.

I guess you didn't read this part of one of my posts. No worry. It's not your fault. You're only human like the rest of us.

Hopefully, my fate will be oblivion.

[Gary Childress]

You're right: I don't "understand" the self-destructive impulse by which people think they can "get back at" God by disbelieving in Him, or worse, by lashing out against Him. And I don't "understand" the big rush to Hell.

But Jesus told us to expect both. So I do.

Yeah. That's why I don't want to be around Yahweh. If he needs to threaten us then he's no God worth worship in my book. I'll worship a kind God, not Yahweh.

[Alexis Jacobi]

But Jesus told us to expect both. So I do.

Actually, a priest-class, those who proceeded from the Hebrew priest-class (against which the figure of Jesus was said to have taken a radical stand), organized the Gospel story. It must be viewed as a sort of religious novel and to have been both written and rewritten. So the fact is that *we* do not really have any verifiable evidence of what Jesus of Nazareth said or is said to have said.

As most know there are a number of apocryphal Gospels that offer different pictures, with different quotes, and different ideas put forth. The Gospels we have now are documents molded through processes of editing by a priest-class.

[henry quirk]

I wish, when I have someone in the penalty box, their quoted crap would be as invisible as their posts.

Anyway, Mannie, just tell the lil pissant yes, unless Henry repents, accepts Christ as the way, he'll burn in hell forever & ever.

I promise you: it will not bother me if you do.

I've said so myself, multiple times, in-thread, and I'll say it again: If Christianity is true, then I, Henry Quirk, will burn in eternal fire, forever & ever.

So, you're off the hook. My feelings and our friendship is secure. Now, as my friend, please, tell the lil pissant sumthin' definitive (and, as you can, avoid quotin' his sorry ass).

[Alexis Jacobi]

But Jesus told us to expect both. So I do.

Actually, a priest-class, those who proceeded from the Hebrew priest-class (against which the figure of Jesus was said to have taken a radical stand), organized the Gospel story. It must be viewed as a sort of religious novel and to have been both written and rewritten. So the fact is that *we* do not really have any verifiable evidence of what Jesus of Nazareth said or is said to have said.

As most know there are a number of apocryphal Gospels that offer different pictures, with different quotes, and different ideas put forth. The Gospels we have now are documents molded through processes of editing by a priest-class.

You're right: I don't "understand" the self-destructive impulse by which people think they can "get back at" God by disbelieving in Him, or worse, by lashing out against Him. And I don't "understand" the big rush to Hell.

Terribly interpretive. Terribly tendentious as well. These are some loaded sentences! They require unpacking.

The rejection of the picture of god you hold to could very well be a sign of need to grow and to build, not as self-destruction. Very little of this do you understand because you can't. In this sense you are forbidden to even consider other notions, other possibilities.

One does not *get back at god* as if disbelief is an act of vengeance. One disbelieves often with real sincerity. Disbelief can be a statement of honest perception, honest understanding. Genuine and necessary.

You seem to say that disbelieving in an Eternal Hell is, somehow, lashing out at god? No, it is not being able to reconcile a merciless idea with a merciful god. (Etc.) This is what we have been discussing.

No one seeks to 'rush to hell'. This is where tendentious interpretation shows itself most strongly. People are confronted by a person like you, who believes in the way that you do (irrationally, because you must, because no other alternative is available), a person who is completely and hermetically sealed against any contrary ideas, and who must destroy other conceptual models -- and you completely turn them off.

They might say "If Immanuel Can is the product (fruit) of Christianity and its god -- I must seek in another area. Or I must relinquish all belief".

And one can relinquish all belief (as many here have) and live decent lives as many here do.

[Immanuel Can]

Yo, IC!

Seriously, what say you:

Hilarously slanted asking, Biggie. I can't answer that question in the bigoted form in which it's raised.

Henry has a "contraption" arugment, you say? So I'm supposed to just swallow an insult to his view, in order to get to answering? And Christianity is a "spiritual contraption argument", you say? So I'm supposed to accept an insult to my own belief system too?

So you don't really want a serious answer? You want to slide a bigoted statement past me, and have me respond? And, no doubt, accuse me of being "afraid" when I decline?

No such luck. I'll answer your question very forthrightly. But first, let's see you rephrase it like a reasonable and polite human being would do...

Seriously though, what's "bigoted" about the points I raise?

You call your opponents' views mere "contraptions". But there's no reason they have to grant you your prejudicial characterizations.

So now, reword your question and make it polite...or don't. And get an answer, or don't...according to what you, yourself, choose to do.

[Immanuel Can]

I guess you didn't read this part of one of my posts. No worry. It's not your fault. You're only human like the rest of us.

Hopefully, my fate will be oblivion.

Two problems: firstly, "hope" is not a word that fits with "oblivion." Secondly, there isn't actually any hope of that.