Christianity

[attofishpi]

Just out of interest, how would you define the God of Judaism and the God of Christianity? How would the definition differ I wonder?

Hope you do not mind that I answer you here. It could derail the other thread.

I think that to answer you we'd have to talk about the nature of conceptions as distinct from, say, real things. How Jews define God is in many ways pretty distinct from how Christians define God and these differences -- different conceptions -- have been more acute and sometimes less acute depending on the historical moment.

The God of Judaism, I guess I'd have to say, still supports all the notions of what God wants and requires and for this reason, within traditional Judaism, Jews still must and do observe all the rules of halacha that they can and take it all very seriously. Their God has not ever, shall I say, abandoned them or traded them in for others who were given the mantle, as it were, to direct God's projects. So traditional Jews remain within that old form and, according to their logic, exist under God's blessing. This notion and this conception has everything to do with a Jewish concept of Jewish history. It is an exclusive project not an inclusive one.

The Christian God, or the God-concept if you go along with me, is different in numerous senses. One is that God Himself wiggled out from under the notion that the Jewish God was exclusive to the Jewish tribe. In this version God Himself left Judaism 'desolate' as a result of the naughty deeds that took place lo the many years during those dar days in Jerusalem. The Jewish concept of God *flew the coop* as it were and wandered off in a substantial huff. He traded in his former maleficent protégées for others who, He seemed to assert, understood him better (or perhaps *what He had become*) and He expanded his terrestrial domain.

I am being somewhat but not altogether facetious here, uncertain as I am how much of a sense of humor God does have. I could get into some trouble you know . . .

Yes, interesting that I had a little synchronicity today since I watched a rabbi (i think) talking about God with relation to Judaism, and I did find it a tad confronting. He really insisted that God was pretty much for the Jews and Israel - NOT a God for humankind in general.

However, you are stating expectations of God as per faiths, but not actually defining God. What IS God?

From my experiences of God the closest glove that fits in a nutshell is Panentheism. Indeed, although I am a Christian I so far see no contradiction to any monotheistic religion to the notion of Panentheism.

[Immanuel Can]

Indeed, although I am a Christian I so far see no contradiction to any monotheistic religion to the notion of Panentheism.

Well, aside from the fact that Panentheism contradicts the Biblical concepts of Creation, anthropology, history, the nature of God, sin, salvation, time and space, Christ, morality, meaning and eschatology, they're exactly the same.

[attofishpi]

Indeed, although I am a Christian I so far see no contradiction to any monotheistic religion to the notion of Panentheism.

Well, aside from the fact that Panentheism contradicts the Biblical concepts of Creation, anthropology, history, the nature of God, sin, salvation, time and space, Christ, morality, meaning and eschatology, they're exactly the same.

What did Christ state that contradicts Panentheism?

By creation I take it you mean this:-
3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

Let's face it - that is a contradiction to man's intelligence.

[Alexis Jacobi]

What IS God?

Well, according to Uwot God is -- I don't know how he does this -- an old boot. (But that is Uwot, something of an oddball as philosophers go).

What I feel I can say, or could say which is more to the point, is that whatever God is in the sense of really is, He both makes it plain and conceals it simultaneously. It is both knowable and also unknowable.

To bend Robert Frost to my (questionable) purpose:

I have kept hidden in the instep arch
Of an old cedar at the waterside
A broken drinking goblet like the Grail
Under a spell so the wrong ones can't find it,
So can't get saved, as Saint Mark says
they mustn't.

You are asking What IS God? but not (I guess) taking into consideration that our former and historical concept of God has shown some indications of not coinciding with the newer concepts of what God is, what God does, and what God wants. Concepts are always in flux, so it seems.

I am uncertain how to define God. Today is Tuesday and it could be different by Friday, I don't know. So my ambiguous answer is only valid for today and until 12 midnight! Today I quote Isaiah.

Sorry, that's all I know!

For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater:

So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

[Immanuel Can]

What did Christ state that contradicts Panentheism?

Start with his discourses in Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. We'll go from there.

By creation I take it you mean this:-
3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

That's the least of it. Panentheism dissolves the distinction between God and Creation, for a start: it supposes that Creation is "in-god," rather than being distinct. Instead, it is, at most, semi-distinct; but ultimately, it doesn't even imply a separation that goes that far.

[attofishpi]

What IS God?

Well, according to Uwot God is -- I don't know how he does this -- an old boot. (But that is Uwot, something of an oddball as philosophers go).

Yeah but uwot's getting old and thinks of an old boot when he should be thinking of the knee of a lovely ladies boot:-

(btw I think uwot might be insane)

[attofishpi]

What did Christ state that contradicts Panentheism?

Start with his discourses in Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. We'll go from there.

Sure - provide a quote that rules out the nature of God being Panetheistic according to Christ.

By creation I take it you mean this:-
3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

(A CONTRADICTION TO MAN"S INTELLIGENCE)

That's the least of it. Panentheism dissolves the distinction between God and Creation, for a start: it supposes that Creation is "in-god," rather than being distinct. Instead, it is, at most, semi-distinct; but ultimately, it doesn't even imply a separation that goes that far.

So what?

[Alexis Jacobi]

That's the least of it. Panentheism dissolves the distinction between God and Creation, for a start: it supposes that Creation is "in-god," rather than being distinct. Instead, it is, at most, semi-distinct; but ultimately, it doesn't even imply a separation that goes that far.

But pantheism preceded monotheism, didn't it? Or has the process ever worked in reverse?

The more that a person grasps what the gods -- the Homeric gods I mean -- were conceived and in that sense what they *are*, the easier it is to understand what the word dasein refers to. (In any case that is my understanding of the issue).

There is a movement to 'recover' or 'rediscover' those gods that were driven underground and to allow them life again. I am not saying this because I am necessarily an advocate of this but just to point out that many people recognized this need and did substantial work to see it happen.

Christianity isn this sense has always been so very possessive, domineering and controlling according to one angle-of-view. And one of the reasons people react against this (through their ressentiment and vengefulness) is simply because of that fact.

All of this points to a huge, on-going problem. And the more that this problem is brought out into the open, the easier it is to understand the conflicts in our modern day and age.

[Immanuel Can]

What did Christ state that contradicts Panentheism?

Start with his discourses in Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. We'll go from there.

Sure - provide a quote that rules out the nature of God being Panetheistic according to Christ.

There are too many to limit it to just one. But you could begin with something like John 3:16, since it's so well known. See if you can make that one Panentheist-friendly.

By creation I take it you mean this:-
3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

(A CONTRADICTION TO MAN"S INTELLIGENCE)

That's the least of it. Panentheism dissolves the distinction between God and Creation, for a start: it supposes that Creation is "in-god," rather than being distinct. Instead, it is, at most, semi-distinct; but ultimately, it doesn't even imply a separation that goes that far.

So what?

So Panentheism isn't Christianity. It isn't Judaism either, as Spinoza famously found out.

[Immanuel Can]

That's the least of it. Panentheism dissolves the distinction between God and Creation, for a start: it supposes that Creation is "in-god," rather than being distinct. Instead, it is, at most, semi-distinct; but ultimately, it doesn't even imply a separation that goes that far.

But pantheism preceded monotheism, didn't it? Or has the process ever worked in reverse?

Panentheism is the newcomer. Monotheism is actually very ancient, dating back to the very start of human civilization and recorded history. And while the concept may be a little older, "Panentheism" was a word first used in 1821.

[attofishpi]

Start with his discourses in Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. We'll go from there.

Sure - provide a quote that rules out the nature of God being Panetheistic according to Christ.

There are too many to limit it to just one. But you could begin with something like John 3:16, since it's so well known. See if you can make that one Panentheist-friendly.

Oh I insist - provide at least one here in this thread for our discussion.

That's the least of it. Panentheism dissolves the distinction between God and Creation, for a start: it supposes that Creation is "in-god," rather than being distinct. Instead, it is, at most, semi-distinct; but ultimately, it doesn't even imply a separation that goes that far.

So what?

So Panentheism isn't Christianity. It isn't Judaism either, as Spinoza famously found out.

Says you - someone that clearly only conceives of God from what is written in a book. You truly have no idea about God from experience.

For a start, you seem to be of the common misconception that God CREATED the UNIVERSE - where in the bible is that stated?

[Immanuel Can]

Sure - provide a quote that rules out the nature of God being Panetheistic according to Christ.

There are too many to limit it to just one. But you could begin with something like John 3:16, since it's so well known. See if you can make that one Panentheist-friendly.

Oh I insist - provide at least one here in this thread for our discussion.

Um...I just did.

Did you not see it? John 3:16. Start there.

So what?

So Panentheism isn't Christianity. It isn't Judaism either, as Spinoza famously found out.

Says you

No, says the Jewish community to Spinoza, and says any knowledgeable Christian to the Panentheist.

You can find out for yourself, though. Just study it out.

[attofishpi]

There are too many to limit it to just one. But you could begin with something like John 3:16, since it's so well known. See if you can make that one Panentheist-friendly.

Oh I insist - provide at least one here in this thread for our discussion.

Um...I just did.

Did you not see it? John 3:16. Start there.

So Panentheism isn't Christianity. It isn't Judaism either, as Spinoza famously found out.

Says you

No, says the Jewish community to Spinoza, and says any knowledgeable Christian to the Panentheist.

You can find out for yourself, though. Just study it out.

Why do you keep chopping off what I state? LOL - back to that eh? Can't deal with your lack of understanding re God and the bible shortcomings?

I had a look at John 3:16 - nothing contrary to Panentheism there - what else ya got?

Also, where in the bible does it state God created the universe?

[Immanuel Can]

Why do you keep chopping off what I state?

Because if I don't, then the messages get double the length of the previous ones. So I tend to cut out the stuff that isn't directly on point.

I had a look at John 3:16 - nothing contrary to Panentheism there - what else ya got?

What's your Pantheist reading of that verse?

John 3:16 has God separate from the world, which it says is not eternal but "perishing," and His Son coming to be the object of "belief," conditional to "eternal life." How does any of that fit into a Panentheistic account?

Also, where in the bible does it state God created the universe?

It's the very first verse in the entire Bible. Genesis 1:1.

Am I asking you for too much? Is this somehow harder than you can understand? Honest question. I just find it rather surprising that, if you know Panentheism and you know Christianity, you aren't seeing this right away...

[attofishpi]

Why do you keep chopping off what I state?

Because if I don't, then the messages get double the length of the previous ones. So I tend to cut out the stuff that isn't directly on point.

I had a look at John 3:16 - nothing contrary to Panentheism there - what else ya got?

What's your Pantheist reading of that verse?

John 3:16 has God separate from the world, which it says is not eternal but "perishing," and His Son coming to be the object of "belief," conditional to "eternal life." How does any of that fit into a Panentheistic account?

Pleaassee quote it - my bible is getting tattered and I keep finding many versions - perhaps if you quote your version then I might understand what you are alluding to.

Also, where in the bible does it state God created the universe?

It's the very first verse in the entire Bible. Genesis 1:1.

No it's not.
1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

Me thinks you are assuming (rather a lot) - the above states ONLY that God created Earth, and from my experience of heaven, it is here ON Earth.

Am I asking you for too much? Is this somehow harder than you can understand? Honest question. I just find it rather surprising that, if you know Panentheism and you know Christianity, you aren't seeing this right away...

You sound a little agitated. You have done nothing to prove that I am not a Christian or that me stating I am a Christian Panentheist is somehow a contradiction.