Freedom and Guns

[henry quirk]

Since human nature is the way it is, guns are essential for defense if freedom is the goal.

Owning a gun is not a passport to freedom.

No one with a gun is free, owning a gun means the complete opposite, it means one is living in tension, fearing intention. That's not freedom.

All I know is havin' a shotgun saved my butt. I'm alive today becuz of that Stoeger. I say that makes me a lot more free than I woulda been without that shotgun.

Havin' that Stoeger then, havin' it now, means I can self-direct, self-rely, and be self-responsible. It means I'm not easy prey for anyone with a mind to take that which isn't his.

You may not see that as freedom but I do.

[Nick_A]

Owning a gun is not a passport to freedom.

No one with a gun is free, owning a gun means the complete opposite, it means one is living in tension, fearing intention. That's not freedom.

Freedom requires efforts to sustain it against those which oppose it. By definition it creates tension. Without tension there is no life.

If you have to sustain freedom then it’s not true freedom, it’s a tension brought about by the fear of opposition.

Life is not being in opposition to anything, life is all allowing to be exactly as it is in every moment, unconditionally so.

Freedom is a made up concept of life, freedom only has meaning in association with it’s complimentary opposite within the artificial dream of separation.

In reality, absolute life is not in opposition with itself, it is completely and absolutely unconditional in every moment because there is nothing opposing it.

“Is life so dear, or peaceful so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course others may take, but as for me, give me liberty or give me death!” Patrick Henry.

You seem to want the peace of wonderful thoughts and the chains which provide it. Others are willing to die for freedom in the struggle to sustain it. We have chosen what gives us meaning and purpose and what makes defense possible including guns.

[Nick_A]

“Democracy extends the sphere of individual freedom, socialism restricts it. Democracy attaches all possible value to each man; socialism makes each man a mere agent, a mere number. Democracy and socialism have nothing in common but one word: equality. But notice the difference: while democracy seeks equality in liberty, socialism seeks equality in restraint and servitude.”
― Alexis de Tocqueville

How a person appreciates "equality" will determine if they are in favor of guns to protect individual freedom. Those in favor of statist slavery will demand sacrificing guns for "equality" while those valuing personal freedom demand their guns for protection against the slavery of "equality"

Which version of equality is taught in universities? Why do you think it is so effective?

[henry quirk]

Which version of equality is taught in universities? Why do you think it is so effective?

Slaver studies is all the rage on campus. Cuz they never, ever, actually call it slaver studies.

[Dontaskme]

You seem to want the peace of wonderful thoughts and the chains which provide it.

I do not want anything I have no control over whatsoever. Life is a dangerous pursuit for any living being. This is obvious, and is why humans make weapons in the vain attempt to protect itself from the danger. If life wasn't dangerous then no weapons of self-defense would ever be needed. So it seems humans believe it is ok to continue living on the knife edge of creation, and will endorse that way of life and be completely happy supporting it, even imposing it on the unborn in the deluded belief that they too are just expected to be obliged to go along with the fight for this so called freedom game that we think can be won. So it seems we are always on the defense because we fight to be free, and call that a win... to me that is not freedom at all, it's just pure self indulgent fantasy. No one wins the fight for freedom, because it's a relative terminology, there is no freedom without something to be free OF... to be free from something will never be won, for obvious reasons, in so far as, for every winner there is a loser...we are never free while others are losing.

Others are willing to die for freedom in the struggle to sustain it. We have chosen what gives us meaning and purpose and what makes defense possible including guns.

To die for freedom is a pointless pursuit is all I'm trying to say. We have invented purpose and meaning where there is none in reality, we crave meaning because we cannot accept a reality with no meaning. Even though wild animals effortlessly surrender to their bloody battles of survival without ever demanding their lives have purpose and meaning.

The very idea of ''freedom'' is a relative thing, in that the concept itself can only mean a freedom FROM some undesirable state. A state that will never go away, no matter how much we believe we are free FROM it... so how can one claim to be free from a state that will never go away. . is my point.

For me, why would one ''want'' to sustain the constant struggle for life where one is willing to die just so someone else can live only for that someone else to die as well fighting for the same pointless and futile cause.... to me, to sustain the real truth that life is a bloody mindless battle field, is a futile struggle, especially already knowing no one wins this game of life, there really isn't anything worth fighting for here as no one wins...in my humble opinion.

.

[Skepdick]

Owning a gun is not a passport to freedom.

No one with a gun is free, owning a gun means the complete opposite, it means one is living in tension, fearing intention. That's not freedom.

Philosophy is not a passport to freedom.

No one philosophising is free, philosophising means the complete opposite, it means one is living in tension, fearing their own ignorance. That's not freedom.

Seatbelts are not passports to freedom.

No one wearing a seatbelt is free, using a seatbelt means the complete opposite, it means one is living in tension, fearing accidents. Tnat's not freedom.


Trite platitude is worth less than toilet paper.

[Dontaskme]

Owning a gun is not a passport to freedom.

No one with a gun is free, owning a gun means the complete opposite, it means one is living in tension, fearing intention. That's not freedom.

Philosophy i s not a passport to freedom.

No one philosophising is free, philosophising means the complete opposite, it means one is living in tension, fearing their own ignorance. That's not freedom.

No thing, not a thing, nothing is free...go figure.

[Skepdick]

No thing, not a thing, nothing is free...go figure.

Not not. Not not not not. Not.

Not not not not not not.

Not. Not not.

[Nick_A]

You seem to want the peace of wonderful thoughts and the chains which provide it.

I do not want anything I have no control over whatsoever. Life is a dangerous pursuit for any living being. This is obvious, and is why humans make weapons in the vain attempt to protect itself from the danger. If life wasn't dangerous then no weapons of self-defense would ever be needed. So it seems humans believe it is ok to continue living on the knife edge of creation, and will endorse that way of life and be completely happy supporting it, even imposing it on the unborn in the deluded belief that they too are just expected to be obliged to go along with the fight for this so called freedom game that we think can be won. So it seems we are always on the defense because we fight to be free, and call that a win... to me that is not freedom at all, it's just pure self indulgent fantasy. No one wins the fight for freedom, because it's a relative terminology, there is no freedom without something to be free OF... to be free from something will never be won, for obvious reasons, in so far as, for every winner there is a loser...we are never free while others are losing.

Freedom on this thread refers to the freedom of the self to become what it can as opposed to slavery which allows others like governments to create the self for you. Your self determines the quality of your life.

“The true value of a human being can be found in the degree to which he has attained liberation from the self.” ~ Albert Einstein

Others are willing to die for freedom in the struggle to sustain it. We have chosen what gives us meaning and purpose and what makes defense possible including guns.

To die for freedom is a pointless pursuit is all I'm trying to say. We have invented purpose and meaning where there is none in reality, we crave meaning because we cannot accept a reality with no meaning. Even though wild animals effortlessly surrender to their bloody battles of survival without ever demanding their lives have purpose and meaning.

The very idea of ''freedom'' is a relative thing, in that the concept itself can only mean a freedom FROM some undesirable state. A state that will never go away, no matter how much we believe we are free FROM it... so how can one claim to be free from a state that will never go away. . is my point.

For me, why would one ''want'' to sustain the constant struggle for life where one is willing to die just so someone else can live only for that someone else to die as well fighting for the same pointless and futile cause.... to me, to sustain the real truth that life is a bloody mindless battle field, is a futile struggle, especially already knowing no one wins this game of life, there really isn't anything worth fighting for here as no one wins...in my humble opinion.

Jesus died for freedom from the self for the sake of returning to his origin. Some will understand while others will not. But to explain it will just let the deeper meaning become lost in the weeds. Gurdjieff wrote:

Liberation leads to liberation.

These are the first words of truth—not truth in quotation marks but truth in the real meaning of the word; truth which is not merely theoretical, not simply a word, but truth that can be realized in practice. The meaning behind these words may be explained as follows:

By liberation is meant the liberation which is the aim of all schools, all religions, at all times.

This liberation can indeed be very great. All men desire it and strive after it. But it cannot be attained without the first liberation, a lesser liberation. The great liberation is liberation from influences outside us. The lesser liberation is liberation from influences within us.........................

Real freedom is about freedom from the imagination which keeps us as we are and creates our self. Real freedom is not just freedom to do what we want but being able to know what to do in order to be free. If we do live in the darkness of Plato's cave we imagine what we are. This first step is the lesser freedom: the freedom to consciously become what the universe intended us to be.

Guns are essential for social freedom or social interaction in Plato's cave. But for inner freedom to pursue human meaning and purpose, human consciousness rather than reactive imagination is essential. If one denies human meaning and purpose just means they are content with imagination. Humanity as it is first requires the external space which encourages inner freedom rather than indoctrination so Man can become as was intended by universal consciousness. But a secular society is built on indoctrination so all genuine efforts for inner freedom must be done in private gatherings in which a person has experienced the power of imagination and how it deprives a person of life.

What would a person be like who has acquired both the lesser freedom and the greater freedom? Such a person could be a philosopher king.

[Dontaskme]

Real freedom is about freedom from the imagination which keeps us as we are and creates our self. Real freedom is not just freedom to do what we want but being able to know what to do in order to be free. If we do live in the darkness of Plato's cave we imagine what we are. This first step is the lesser freedom: the freedom to consciously become what the universe intended us to be.

Guns are essential for social freedom or social interaction in Plato's cave. But for inner freedom to pursue human meaning and purpose, human consciousness rather than reactive imagination is essential. If one denies human meaning and purpose just means they are content with imagination. Humanity as it is first requires the external space which encourages inner freedom rather than indoctrination so Man can become as was intended by universal consciousness. But a secular society is built on indoctrination so all genuine efforts for inner freedom must be done in private gatherings in which a person has experienced the power of imagination and how it deprives a person of life.

What would a person be like who has acquired both the lesser freedom and the greater freedom? Such a person could be a philosopher king.

Thanks for your response Nick...but to be honest after reading it, I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.

[Age]

Nick_A wrote: ↑Mon Feb 28, 2022 3:25 am
Since human nature is the way it is, guns are essential for defense if freedom is the goal.

This is BEYOND a JOKE, and a PRIME EXAMPLE of how 'you', human beings, will say just about ANY 'thing' in order to back up and support what is ALREADY BELIEVED to be true, by "yourselves".

EITHER "side" could just say, "human nature is the way it is", as though 'that' WILL back up and support THEIR CLAIM, is BEYOND a JOKE.

If you did NOT INFORM us of what 'human nature' is above, then will you this time?

If no, then WHY NOT?

Human nature refers to the reality that the being of Man is dual natured. It is capable of both the most horrible atrocities as well as the most profound compassion. Freedom requires defense against the most horrible atrocities dedicated to the loss of freedom. Guns provide the defense.

So, considering the Fact that 'you', "nick_a", are capable of the MOST HORRIBLE ATROCITIES KNOWN to human beings, do 'you' think it REALLY WISE for 'us' to allow 'you' to own guns and/or weapons?

'We' are, after all, MORE FREE when there are NOT very dangerous human beings running around with guns and/or weapons.

Countries gathering and holding more and more weapons, like nuclear missiles, for example, by very dangerous human beings, is NOT something I would call conducive to Peace and FREEDOM, as demonstrated by the very current 'world conditions' happening in and around the country called "ukraine", (when this is being written).

[Age]

Since human nature is the way it is, guns are essential for defense if freedom is the goal.

Owning a gun is not a passport to freedom.

No one with a gun is free, owning a gun means the complete opposite, it means one is living in tension, fearing intention. That's not freedom.

Freedom requires efforts to sustain it against those which oppose it.

But OWNING A GUN is a SIGN of OPPOSING FREEDOM.

Guns are created to KILL, which is a CLEAR SIGN of CONTROL OVER "others" and NOT FREEDOM, AT ALL.

By definition it creates tension. Without tension there is no life.

LOL
LOL
LOL

ANOTHER PRIME EXAMPLE of one who will say just about ANY thing, in order to 'try to' "justify" their currently held BELIEFS.

[Walker]

But OWNING A GUN is a SIGN of OPPOSING FREEDOM.

Guns are created to KILL, which is a CLEAR SIGN of CONTROL OVER "others" and NOT FREEDOM, AT ALL.

Without his Peacemaker, a runt like Buster Scruggs, exercising his God-given right to freedom of speech and dealing with the aggressive consequences heaped upon him as attempted punishment by the egocentric and aggressively-conditioned, would not have lasted as long as he did in the Wild West.

[Age]

Since human nature is the way it is, guns are essential for defense if freedom is the goal.

Owning a gun is not a passport to freedom.

No one with a gun is free, owning a gun means the complete opposite, it means one is living in tension, fearing intention. That's not freedom.

All I know is havin' a shotgun saved my butt.

How EXACTLY did having a shotgun save "your life" or "your butt"?

I'm alive today becuz of that Stoeger.

How, what happened, EXACTLY?

I say that makes me a lot more free than I woulda been without that shotgun.

How, EXACTLY?

From my perspective you appear to be a VERY AFRAID and SCARED human being, which, to some, is the VERY OPPOSITE of being FREE.

Havin' that Stoeger then, havin' it now, means I can self-direct, self-rely, and be self-responsible.

Sounds like a GREAT EXAMPLE to SHOW of how some people would 'try' "justifying" and/or "rationalizing" their Wrong 'thinking' and 'behaving', back in the OLD DAYS when this was being written.

These people would, literally, use the "justification", "I will own a gun to protect myself from those with a gun".

The ABSURDITY and RIDICULOUS of this speaks VERY CLEARLY for itself.

Also, if you can NOT 'direct' "yourself", NOT 'rely' on "your" OWN 'self', and NOT be 'responsible' WITHOUT a gun, literally, MEANS you are NOT 'self-directed', NOT 'self-reliant', and NOT 'self-responsible'. 'you' are, literally, 'directed' by a gun, 'reliant' on a gun, and ONLY 'responsible' with and because of a gun.

It means I'm not easy prey for anyone with a mind to take that which isn't his.

You keep going on and on about this "stuff", which you keep IMAGINING, thinking, and/or BELIEVING you "own", and that SOMEONE WANTS to TAKE this "stuff" from you. Again a True SIGN of one who is VERY AFRAID, SCARED, and thus NOT FREE AT ALL.

You ALSO seem to be, CONVENIENTLY, CONTINUALLY FORGETTING ALL about the "stuff", which you have TAKEN and STOLEN "yourself".

You may not see that as freedom but I do.

Okay.

You are so much of a so-called "NOT EASY PREY" that you even THREATEN "others" that you WOULD even KILL 'them' if they just touched your toothpick.

But, to some, this "behavior" actually appears to be BIGGER SIGN of just how AFRAID, SCARED, and thus NOT FREE AT ALL 'you' REALLY ARE. HAVING TO OWN a gun is just more evidence of this FEAR 'you' are SHOWING and REVEALING here.

This FEAR is ANOTHER SIGN of being A SLAVE, and thus, AGAIN, NOT FREE AT ALL, REALLY.

[Age]

Freedom requires efforts to sustain it against those which oppose it. By definition it creates tension. Without tension there is no life.

If you have to sustain freedom then it’s not true freedom, it’s a tension brought about by the fear of opposition.

Life is not being in opposition to anything, life is all allowing to be exactly as it is in every moment, unconditionally so.

Freedom is a made up concept of life, freedom only has meaning in association with it’s complimentary opposite within the artificial dream of separation.

In reality, absolute life is not in opposition with itself, it is completely and absolutely unconditional in every moment because there is nothing opposing it.

“Is life so dear, or peaceful so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course others may take, but as for me, give me liberty or give me death!” Patrick Henry.

You seem to want the peace of wonderful thoughts and the chains which provide it. Others are willing to die for freedom in the struggle to sustain it. We have chosen what gives us meaning and purpose and what makes defense possible including guns.

ALL of these EXCUSES and ATTEMPTS at "justifying" owning guns, is to 'protect' you FROM 'what', EXACTLY, REALLY?

Just saying; " To die for 'freedom' ", or " To fight for 'freedom' ", says and explains NOTHING AT ALL REALLY.

And, BOTH "sides" use these SAME EXCUSES and "reasons".

But, what is ACTUALLY True is one owns a gun or a weapon to 'protect' "them" 'self' from one with a gun or a weapon.

As can be CLEARLY SEEN, and PROVED True, throughout human history.

AGAIN, the ABSURDITY of obtaining the "bigger" gun, or of stockpiling the "most" (dangerous) weapons, to "protect" one's self from one's self, speaks for itself. The Fact that some human beings think or believe that 'we', human beings, are obtaining MORE and/or BIGGER weapons to "defend" "ourselves" from human beings with weapons, and thus, literally, from "ourselves", speaks VOLUMES of just how STUPID some human beings REALLY WERE, back in the days when this was being written.

And, LOL thinking that HAVING and USING guns and weapons would SCARE "themselves" into FREEDOM, goes BEYOND ABSURDITY and STUPIDITY.

BEING AFRAID is NOT FREEDOM, and ONLY the SCARED own guns, for "defense".