Imperefct God

[Atla]

I just use the word success to differentiate a life that is enjoyed and fulfilled from a life one suffers and regrets. It's a byproduct or description, not an objective.

Everybody is different. I have no idea what would satisfy another, but I have enjoyed all my life, even the lowest points (at least five times next to death). When Dostoevsky wrote, "White Nights," he ended it with this line, "My god, one moment of ecstasy, why is that not enough for a lifetime?"

Perhaps you've never known such a moment. I have. Not only one, but many, as well as other times of joy, any one of which would have been enough for a lifetime.

Maybe that's not available to everyone. I certainly cannot know what anyone else's experience is. I know there are others who feel the same way about life as I do, and others who feel about it as you do. I have no explanation for the difference, nor do I need one.

Have you ever watched wild animals in pursuit of their lives, doing all the things their life depends on. Except for domesticated cats, most of them work all the time and certainly seem to be enjoying their lives. I think it is part of living nature for an organism to enjoy doing what it's nature requires, and I think that is true of human organisms as well. I think most human beings do not enjoy their lives because they live in defiance of the requirements of their natures, as if work, and learning, and thinking and achieving were some kind of burden instead of the means to life and enjoyment. For me it is the whole reason for living and it provides a life of endless discovery, adventure, and wonderful moments of ecstasy.

Some people seem to have this constant joy and I don't know what it is, I could never recreate it. Maybe it's because they are blocking out the parts of reality they don't like, or maybe it's because they are satisfied with little, I don't know. I can and do feel happy/content most of the time because I choose to, but that's not the same thing, it doesn't come automatically.

Humans weren't "meant" for a life of endless discovery, adventure and moments of ecstasy, instead they were "meant" to live as monkeys, so that's not it either I don't think.

[Dontaskme]

Humans weren't "meant" for a life of endless discovery, adventure and moments of ecstasy, instead they were "meant" to live as monkeys, so that's not it either I don't think.

Humans are just another form of animal - full stop.



Knowledge of self, gives the illusion of autonomous agency, which is illusory, not that life itself is illusory, agency is illusory. There's just life living itself as and through each form which takes the shape of an animal.

Animals (also called Metazoa) are multicellular, eukaryotic organisms in the biological kingdom Animalia.

Denial of our true nature is the cause of all human suffering. Human life has overevolved to become extremely stressful, in the sense of there appearing to be an artificial sense of separation, where there is the sense to eat or be eaten. The sense of I must be successful for fear of being a failure, or the sense of I must be happy in fear of being unhappy. Must live in fear of dying.

This sense of 'I' is not the normal condition of one's true nature. Nature is unconditionally free of agency.


.

[Dontaskme]

What can make a Conservative optimistic is the experience of having grown up, taken responsibility for himself, earned his own way, and not having needed to take a handout from anyone. That gives one a huge sense of empowerment, achievement, ownership and positivity. And yeah, that's pretty optimistic.

No, this is self indulgent optimism bias. It’s appeasement. We’re all politicians governing ourselves and others as and through consensus coercion.

“An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile—hoping it will eat him last.” Sir Winston

No one owns a conscious experience. The conscious experience owns you.

What you think you are achieving leads to nowhere and can all be gone in a heartbeat.

The mind is a tyrant.

[Belinda]

It is worth the price, but you are right. Whether anyone else is willing to pay the price or not is no one else's business.

Most of the misery in the world is because most people think they can get away with a successful life without paying the price, then blame everything in the world for their problems when they find out they can't cheat reality.

I is true that

NO ONE has the right to tell others that the price is worth it.

. This is a personal and subjective choice, or should be. Optimism of the sort that claims 'the price is worth it' is the psychology of Panglossian fools who are usually politically conservative and doing quite well out of it thank you very much.

Long before you were born I was reading and enjoying Voltaire, and it is his own views that mine most nearly reflect. In your narrow perspective it might seem Panglossian, but it was Voltaire's own recognition of the true nature of reality that made it possible for him to be the brilliant autodidact, polymath, and polyglot that he was. It was Voltaire who first translated Newton's Principia into French, and his mistress, the brilliant Émilie du Châtelet who actually corrected one of Newton's mistakes.

My view of reality, like Voltaire's, recognizes reality is, ruthless, demanding, unforgiving, and seemingly cruel.

Reality is ruthless. Defy reality, and it will destroy you. Refuse to work, and you will starve. Refuse to learn, and the mistakes you make in your ignorance will kill you.

Reality is demanding. You must conform to the requirements of reality all the time, because the moment you let up, it will strike you down. Stop paying attention, just for a few moments, while driving on the highway at 70 miles per hour. Don't bother paying your bills for a month. Forget your insulin injections for a day. Just forget where little Sarah is for a while at the Mall.

Reality is unforgiving. You've made a mistake, but the law forgives you, your parents and friends forgive you, you even manage to forgive yourself, but reality never forgives. It may be a forgivable mistake, but the dead animal cannot be made alive again, the pregnant girl cannot be made "unpregnant", you cannot cancel what you have done, ever! Have you been unfaithful once, then you will always have been unfaithful once. You do something stupid and loose an arm, a leg, or put out your own or someone else's eye. You may never do another thing so foolish, and you may be forgiven by others, but you will never have the arm, leg, or eye, yours or another's, restored.

Reality seems cruel. Disease, death, disaster strike without regard to anyone's position or opinions. The world is full of destruction and misery, though most of it is created by other men. But all of nature seems cruel and the entire chain of life is one of death, killing, and being killed.

But reality cannot be charged with cruelty or any other evil, because reality makes no choices. Reality provides no values, but there can be no value that does not recognize the nature of reality and conform to reality's requirements. All the evil in the world is human action in defiance of the requirements of reality, because most of humanity hates reality.

What mankind wishes for is a reality that is pliable, easy-going, forgiving, and kind. Mankind hates reality as it actually is. He hates the necessity of having to work hard all the time, hates the necessity of having to learn so much, hates never being able to act on whim, or passion, or impulse without suffering the consequences, hates knowing he cannot do wrong and get away with it, hates knowing one cannot get something for nothing.

For those few who are willing to recognize the demands of reality and choose to embrace reality for what it is and find their joy in always being the best they can be, always striving to know and understand the world as well as they can, always working and producing all they can of real value, always seeking the best in all things, willingly accepting the consequences of their wrong choices and fully enjoying the rewards of their right ones being fully responsible for everything they choose to believe, think, and do, reality is an endless source or possibility and reward. If one expects a world without any pain, without any risk or danger, without the possibility of failure or loss, without having to work all the time, they want what only lying religions and political ideologies promise and reality refuses.

You do understand, I'm sure, that the character of Pangloss was a satire of Leibniz' assertion that this is the "best of all possible worlds" (because God made it). The mistake is Leibniz attempting to attribute value to reality itself by making reality both contingent and teleological.

Voltaire certainly didn't satirize the possibility of success in this world, else he would have been satirizing his own life. He satirized the view that good was something one could have without earning it, provided by some benevolent reality or God.

As for politically conservative. Before you make any more silly mistakes like that, please see, What I Don't Believe.

"Because God made it." Is the conservative attitude . Political Conservatives aim to conserve God given rights, or what unbelieving Conservatives would call the natural rights of the powerful status quo to conserve those rights.

For those few who are willing to recognize the demands of reality and choose to embrace reality for what it is and find their joy in always being the best they can be, always striving --------------------

Unlike a man's life, reality has no fixed end point therefore reality is not "what it is" Reality is not a status quo but is infinite and seamless creation. Conservatives , naturally, claim reality is the status quo but they would say that wouldn't they. MRDA.

[RCSaunders]

Humans weren't "meant" for a life of endless discovery, adventure and moments of ecstasy, instead they were "meant" to live as monkeys, so that's not it either I don't think.

Meant by whom? I suspect you are referring to evolution. Since when was evolution teleological.

Human beings were not, "meant," to be anything. Unlike the other animals, they do not have a nature that dictates how they must live.

From my article, "The Moral Nature:"

What We Can Learn From Animals

One of the greatest mistakes of the modern world is the belief that human beings can learn how to live by observing how the animals live. It is a uniquely human mistake.

No other animal makes the mistake of attempting to model its life on how any other animal lives. Every creature has its own unique nature that determines how it must live to live successfully, and no creature, other than man, attempts to live in any other way than how its nature determines it must live.

The fishes do not attempt to fly or live out of water and the birds do not attempt to live under water. Cattle to not attempt to eat flesh and cats do not attempt to live by eating grass. Every species has a unique repertoire of behavior which perfectly fits the requirements of its nature. Furthermore, their natures provide them with the exact characteristics their nature requires. Those who must dig or climb are provided claws for digging and climbing. Those that must fly are provided wings like bats and birds and many insects. Meat eaters are provided with tools of teeth and claws for capturing and tearing the flesh of their prey. Grazers are provided with teeth for chewing and special digestive systems for processing grasses.

What we can learn from the animals is that every organism has the exact attributes it requires to live as its nature requires and that what every creature does is exactly what its nature determines it must do to live successfully as the kind of organism it is, and most importantly, every creature is unique, with unique attributes and behavior fitting its peculiar nature.

Unique Human Nature

How a human being must live is also determined by human nature. Except for human beings, every creature behaves exactly as their nature requires because its nature also determines that behavior.

The unique nature of human beings does not provide them with any specific predetermine behavior.

It is human nature that determines what human beings must do to live successfully as human beings, but human nature does not provide that behavior. Instead, human beings are provided with the ability to discover what their natures require and the ability to choose that behavior. The first requirement of human nature to live successfully is to learn what human life requires.

Like all other creatures human nature provides human beings with the exact characteristics and attributes required for them to live as the kind of beings they are. Since their nature does not provide their behavior, they are provided with the ability to consciously choose what they do (volition). Since they must discover what their nature requires they are provided with the ability to learn and gain knowledge of what those requirements are (intellect). Since they must choose their behavior they are provided with the means to use their knowledge to think and judge which behavior to choose (rationality). These three attributes, unique to human beings, are the human mind. Only human beings have minds, because only human beings need them.

Human beings are not predators, grazing animals, pack animals, herd animals, colony animals, or social animals. Human beings are rational volitional animals and are required by their nature to choose what kind of beings they are going to be and how they will live.

[RCSaunders]

Everybody is different. I have no idea what would satisfy another, but I have enjoyed all my life, even the lowest points (at least five times next to death). When Dostoevsky wrote, "White Nights," he ended it with this line, "My god, one moment of ecstasy, why is that not enough for a lifetime?"

Perhaps you've never known such a moment. I have. Not only one, but many, as well as other times of joy, any one of which would have been enough for a lifetime.

Maybe that's not available to everyone. I certainly cannot know what anyone else's experience is. I know there are others who feel the same way about life as I do, and others who feel about it as you do. I have no explanation for the difference, nor do I need one.

I agree with you RC. When I talk about my gratitude and joy, it is typically in response to someone claiming that I can't really know such a thing truthfully... either because I'm not a theist, or I'm not seeing the awful truth about life/reality, or because I don't think like they do. I guess they prefer to explain/excuse their own limitations in such a way, rather than considering there are other valid (and maybe even preferable) ways to perceive and live. Some people are primarily happy and satisfied through thick and thin. So instead of dismissing that potential/quality, I would think that people who don't see/feel that way would say, "Hey... what am I not seeing here?" What other doors of perception might be available to walk through? Why would anyone think that they see/know all the potential there is, ever???????

It doesn't make sense to me that life is just a huge horrible mess that we can only endure and survive. What makes sense to me is that many of us operate on a very surface level -- believing the limitations of our perception -- meanwhile, there is amazing capability all around to be tapped into. It makes more sense to me that life is vibrantly full of every possibility to be experienced, and we get to figure out ways to do it. If we accept the surface value, that's all we get. In my experience, there has always been more beyond every perspective I've ever had. And I think that makes perfect sense.

Well, it does make sense. There is another mistake many people make, and I'm sure you will recognize it, that there is only one right way for human beings to live. Beyond the fundamental requirements of human nature to learn, think, choose, and work, how anyone chooses to live their life is going to be different, because everyone is different and what will fulfill one human being's life will never be exactly the same, or even similar, to anyone else--which is why the endless variety of human life and experience makes others so interesting and worth knowing. It is also the reason every scheme to control how others live, from the regimentation of children in government schools to someone's idea of a "one-size-fits-all, organized society," is so harmful.

[Atla]

Humans weren't "meant" for a life of endless discovery, adventure and moments of ecstasy, instead they were "meant" to live as monkeys, so that's not it either I don't think.

Meant by whom? I suspect you are referring to evolution. Since when was evolution teleological.

Human beings were not, "meant," to be anything. Unlike the other animals, they do not have a nature that dictates how they must live.

From my article, "The Moral Nature:"

What We Can Learn From Animals

One of the greatest mistakes of the modern world is the belief that human beings can learn how to live by observing how the animals live. It is a uniquely human mistake.

No other animal makes the mistake of attempting to model its life on how any other animal lives. Every creature has its own unique nature that determines how it must live to live successfully, and no creature, other than man, attempts to live in any other way than how its nature determines it must live.

The fishes do not attempt to fly or live out of water and the birds do not attempt to live under water. Cattle to not attempt to eat flesh and cats do not attempt to live by eating grass. Every species has a unique repertoire of behavior which perfectly fits the requirements of its nature. Furthermore, their natures provide them with the exact characteristics their nature requires. Those who must dig or climb are provided claws for digging and climbing. Those that must fly are provided wings like bats and birds and many insects. Meat eaters are provided with tools of teeth and claws for capturing and tearing the flesh of their prey. Grazers are provided with teeth for chewing and special digestive systems for processing grasses.

What we can learn from the animals is that every organism has the exact attributes it requires to live as its nature requires and that what every creature does is exactly what its nature determines it must do to live successfully as the kind of organism it is, and most importantly, every creature is unique, with unique attributes and behavior fitting its peculiar nature.

Unique Human Nature

How a human being must live is also determined by human nature. Except for human beings, every creature behaves exactly as their nature requires because its nature also determines that behavior.

The unique nature of human beings does not provide them with any specific predetermine behavior.

It is human nature that determines what human beings must do to live successfully as human beings, but human nature does not provide that behavior. Instead, human beings are provided with the ability to discover what their natures require and the ability to choose that behavior. The first requirement of human nature to live successfully is to learn what human life requires.

Like all other creatures human nature provides human beings with the exact characteristics and attributes required for them to live as the kind of beings they are. Since their nature does not provide their behavior, they are provided with the ability to consciously choose what they do (volition). Since they must discover what their nature requires they are provided with the ability to learn and gain knowledge of what those requirements are (intellect). Since they must choose their behavior they are provided with the means to use their knowledge to think and judge which behavior to choose (rationality). These three attributes, unique to human beings, are the human mind. Only human beings have minds, because only human beings need them.

Human beings are not predators, grazing animals, pack animals, herd animals, colony animals, or social animals. Human beings are rational volitional animals and are required by their nature to choose what kind of beings they are going to be and how they will live.

17th century psychology?

Whatever, thanks for the lessons, but clichés and self-deception don't make me happy because I can't deceive myself, they make me miserable.

[RCSaunders]

Unlike a man's life, reality has no fixed end point ...

Does that actually mean something to you? Time has no end point, space has no end point, mass has no end point, energy has no end point. It doesn't mean anything.

Something does not have to have an, "end point," to have a specific nature which can be identified. Existence has a specific nature which can be identified and it is not contingent on any mystical fairy-land cause. It is what it is and one either discovers what it is and lives in conformance to its nature or lives in defiance of reality, like those who prefer their religious superstitions and ideologies to reality, and suffer the consequences.

[Belinda]

Unlike a man's life, reality has no fixed end point ...

Does that actually mean something to you? Time has no end point, space has no end point, mass has no end point, energy has no end point. It doesn't mean anything.

Something does not have to have an, "end point," to have a specific nature which can be identified. Existence has a specific nature which can be identified and it is not contingent on any mystical fairy-land cause. It is what it is and one either discovers what it is and lives in conformance to its nature or lives in defiance of reality, like those who prefer their religious superstitions and ideologies to reality, and suffer the consequences.

If it is infinite it is impossible to identify its defining attribute.

[Lacewing]

There is another mistake many people make, and I'm sure you will recognize it, that there is only one right way for human beings to live. Beyond the fundamental requirements of human nature to learn, think, choose, and work, how anyone chooses to live their life is going to be different, because everyone is different and what will fulfill one human being's life will never be exactly the same, or even similar, to anyone else--which is why the endless variety of human life and experience makes others so interesting and worth knowing. It is also the reason every scheme to control how others live, from the regimentation of children in government schools to someone's idea of a "one-size-fits-all, organized society," is so harmful.

Religion and theism are a big part of this too. They are woven throughout so much of culture, yet they do not apply for everyone. They create a weight of expectation and judgment for all.

I agree that regimentation squashes creativity and potential. I would also like for there to be a LOT less government in many areas (such as coming up with new mandates and arrangements that profit government and its buddies)... and I would like more government in the area of serving and protecting the diversity, choices, and personal rights of individuals.

Religion and government have become giant hinderances to our evolvement. We can notice it and complain about it, but I don't know what we can do about it... except wait for inevitable failures to dismantle or remake it. We can keep trying to make a difference in our individual ways (through voting and buying power), and (probably most importantly) be personally responsible for expanding our own clarity/awareness to add to a larger wave of human clarity/awareness.

We are currently a world of positions at war. It's difficult to break the cycle. Individually, though, we always have to find ways to thrive amidst whatever chaos we find ourselves in. We can't wait for it to be fixed. Sometimes I think of it as a game or a test: if we can't thrive with what we've got, we won't get/experience more than that.

[Greatest I am]

The unique nature of human beings does not provide them with any specific predetermine behavior.[/i][/b]

The above is wrong.

We are born being led by our selfish genes and nature to join a tribe. This takes cooperation.

That means that we naturally and always default to cooperation and not competition.

This baby experiment shows this truth.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8LIb22-5Lwg

Regards
DL

[RCSaunders]

There is another mistake many people make, and I'm sure you will recognize it, that there is only one right way for human beings to live. Beyond the fundamental requirements of human nature to learn, think, choose, and work, how anyone chooses to live their life is going to be different, because everyone is different and what will fulfill one human being's life will never be exactly the same, or even similar, to anyone else--which is why the endless variety of human life and experience makes others so interesting and worth knowing. It is also the reason every scheme to control how others live, from the regimentation of children in government schools to someone's idea of a "one-size-fits-all, organized society," is so harmful.

Religion and theism are a big part of this too. They are woven throughout so much of culture, yet they do not apply for everyone. They create a weight of expectation and judgment for all.

Not only religion, but all ideologies are part of it.

I agree that regimentation squashes creativity and potential.

I squashes all individuality, originality, and innovation. It quashes the very essence of human nature.

I would also like for there to be a LOT less government in many areas (such as coming up with new mandates and arrangements that profit government and its buddies)... and I would like more government in the area of serving and protecting the diversity, choices, and personal rights of individuals.

But government never protects true diversity and choice. It's called, government, because its whole purpose is to force people to behave in some way.

Religion and government have become giant hinderances to our evolvement.

Absolutely

We can notice it and complain about it, but I don't know what we can do about it... except wait for inevitable failures to dismantle or remake it. We can keep trying to make a difference in our individual ways (through voting and buying power), and (probably most importantly) be personally responsible for expanding our own clarity/awareness to add to a larger wave of human clarity/awareness.

Like disease and natural disasters, there will always be government so long as the great mass of mankind believes that someone or something else, like a God or government, is supposed to provide them with the kind of life they think they would like. There is no way to fix it, though it will always change as you know.

We are currently a world of positions at war. It's difficult to break the cycle. Individually, though, we always have to find ways to thrive amidst whatever chaos we find ourselves in. We can't wait for it to be fixed. Sometimes I think of it as a game or a test: if we can't thrive with what we've got, we won't get/experience more than that.

That's exactly right:

Individually, though, we always have to find ways to thrive amidst whatever chaos we find ourselves in. We can't wait for it to be fixed.

There are no, "collective solutions." The bonus of every individual making the most of their own life is that it not only makes the individual successful, it benefits everyone else they interact with.

[RCSaunders]

Unlike a man's life, reality has no fixed end point ...

Does that actually mean something to you? Time has no end point, space has no end point, mass has no end point, energy has no end point. It doesn't mean anything.

Something does not have to have an, "end point," to have a specific nature which can be identified. Existence has a specific nature which can be identified and it is not contingent on any mystical fairy-land cause. It is what it is and one either discovers what it is and lives in conformance to its nature or lives in defiance of reality, like those who prefer their religious superstitions and ideologies to reality, and suffer the consequences.

If it is infinite it is impossible to identify its defining attribute.

Nothing has just one defining attribute. You just named what you think is one of reality's defining attribute, that it is infinite. Even if that is one of them (and that really is in question), it's not the only one. For example:

Reality is all that is the way it is. It is all that exists, or existence itself. It consists of everything that exists ontologically, that is, all physical entities, living and conscious organisms, as well as all that exists epistemologically, that is, which exists only as the creation of or in human consciousness, like all knowledge, language, mathematics, logic, science, history, literature, etc.

Of course reality has attributes. That which has no attributes does not exist at all. What would it be?

[RCSaunders]

The unique nature of human beings does not provide them with any specific predetermine behavior.[/i][/b]

The above is wrong.

We are born being led by our selfish genes and nature to join a tribe. This takes cooperation.

That means that we naturally and always default to cooperation and not competition.

This baby experiment shows this truth.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8LIb22-5Lwg

Regards
DL

Well there's not much point in discussing this since you've apparently been completely taken in by this pseudo-scientific physchobabble.

[Belinda]

Does that actually mean something to you? Time has no end point, space has no end point, mass has no end point, energy has no end point. It doesn't mean anything.

Something does not have to have an, "end point," to have a specific nature which can be identified. Existence has a specific nature which can be identified and it is not contingent on any mystical fairy-land cause. It is what it is and one either discovers what it is and lives in conformance to its nature or lives in defiance of reality, like those who prefer their religious superstitions and ideologies to reality, and suffer the consequences.

If it is infinite it is impossible to identify its defining attribute.

Nothing has just one defining attribute. You just named what you think is one of reality's defining attribute, that it is infinite. Even if that is one of them (and that really is in question), it's not the only one. For example:

Reality is all that is the way it is. It is all that exists, or existence itself. It consists of everything that exists ontologically, that is, all physical entities, living and conscious organisms, as well as all that exists epistemologically, that is, which exists only as the creation of or in human consciousness, like all knowledge, language, mathematics, logic, science, history, literature, etc.

Of course reality has attributes. That which has no attributes does not exist at all. What would it be?

I like your reply! I sort of agree "Nothing has just one defining attribute. "It depends on the narrative being told. I was thinking for instance of a very specific disease of which the defining attribute is the causal organism. However the narratives the best scientists tell of things like scarlet fever, smallpox, or covid-19, are just that----narratives.

There are many stories that have been and are told about infectious diseases (witches, miasmas) and also present day conspiracy theories .

Yes, I did name reality as infinite. That is part of my preferred ontological narrative not the moon of truth itself. Part of the story I tell is that reality is much as you say it is, except that I'd also say reality is infinite and does not exist except as centres of consciousness , and absolute mind, create it.