the proper balance between idealism and pragmatism

[henry quirk]

Was it Hobbes or was it Rousseau who claimed just that? I cannot remember.

hell if I know

I did not expect you to know. I hoped you might do some googling for me.

I'm not a subtle creature, B: hintings go right over my head

a quick search: Hobbes & Locke both write about freedom bein' man's natural state

Locke goes on to talk about government's only legit role as preserver of that freedom

Locke was cool

[Belinda]

hell if I know

I did not expect you to know. I hoped you might do some googling for me.

I'm not a subtle creature, B: hintings go right over my head

a quick search: Hobbes & Locke both write about freedom bein' man's natural state

Locke goes on to talk about government's only legit role as preserver of that freedom

Locke was cool

This discussion is becoming too difficult for my present state of laziness.

[RCSaunders]

Then why is Henry home schooling if his children ...

I don't care to speak for Henry. He's perfectly capable of speaking for himself.

OK. Speak for yourself then.

Did your children receive any education between 6 and 18?

Why?

I have no intention of satisfying your inordinate curiosity about my personal life. If you care to talk about issues or principles, fine.

[RCSaunders]

Like it or not we have to be governed by rule of law ...

What? Unless some government makes you do the right thing, you wouldn't?

[RCSaunders]

bein' free is man's natural state, to self-direct & be self-responsible

Was it Hobbes or was it Rousseau who claimed just that? I cannot remember.

Rousseau, Nietzsche, and Max Stirner all taught variations of naturalistic egoism. G.B. Shaw's, "Man and Superman," is an interpretation of that philosophy.

I do not think Henry means the same thing by, "man's natural state," as they did, however.

Hobbes' view of man's natural state was, "solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short."

[commonsense]

Like it or not we have to be governed by rule of law ...

What? Unless some government makes you do the right thing, you wouldn't?

Some certainly wouldn’t.

[commonsense]

Not shared if every individual wants to produce wealth for only himself or only himself and his family.

Every individual wants to produce wealth for only himself and only his family!

That still sounds like every individual wants the same thing.

Yes, the goal is alike with others, but it’s not a group goal. It’s more a competitive goal. In the sense that one person may achieve his goal of wealth for himself and his family, while others may fail, it is non-unique.

[henry quirk]

I did not expect you to know. I hoped you might do some googling for me.

I'm not a subtle creature, B: hintings go right over my head

a quick search: Hobbes & Locke both write about freedom bein' man's natural state

Locke goes on to talk about government's only legit role as preserver of that freedom

Locke was cool

This discussion is becoming too difficult for my present state of laziness.

hey, that's my line!

[henry quirk]

bein' free is man's natural state, to self-direct & be self-responsible

Was it Hobbes or was it Rousseau who claimed just that? I cannot remember.

Rousseau, Nietzsche, and Max Stirner all taught variations of naturalistic egoism. G.B. Shaw's, "Man and Superman," is an interpretation of that philosophy.

I do not think Henry means the same thing by, "man's natural state," as they did, however.

Hobbes' view of man's natural state was, "solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short."

yeah, I dimly recall that line

no, bein' free isn't easy, and -- yeah -- there's an solitary aspect, but it doesn't follow that bein' free leads to a poor, nasty, brutish, and short existence

[Impenitent]

hell if I know

I did not expect you to know. I hoped you might do some googling for me.

I'm not a subtle creature, B: hintings go right over my head

a quick search: Hobbes & Locke both write about freedom bein' man's natural state

Locke goes on to talk about government's only legit role as preserver of that freedom

Locke was cool

Erik Weisz was always picking on him

-Imp

[henry quirk]

Like it or not we have to be governed by rule of law ...

What? Unless some government makes you do the right thing, you wouldn't?

Some certainly wouldn’t.

those same folks, right now, surrounded by government & law do, crappy things

what good has government & law been in curtailin' 'em?

sometimes government & law even assists those garbage people in their misdeeds

self-responsible, self-directing, moral men have no need of government (they may have a use for proxies, though); and no use for law

criminals & the immoral (the ones who get all the attention but who are a minority) aren't particularly blunted by government or law (proxies, of the right kind, can help, though, in keepin' garbage people in line)

[henry quirk]

I did not expect you to know. I hoped you might do some googling for me.

I'm not a subtle creature, B: hintings go right over my head

a quick search: Hobbes & Locke both write about freedom bein' man's natural state

Locke goes on to talk about government's only legit role as preserver of that freedom

Locke was cool

Erik Weisz was always picking on him

-Imp

clever, very clever...

[RCSaunders]

Was it Hobbes or was it Rousseau who claimed just that? I cannot remember.

Rousseau, Nietzsche, and Max Stirner all taught variations of naturalistic egoism. G.B. Shaw's, "Man and Superman," is an interpretation of that philosophy.

I do not think Henry means the same thing by, "man's natural state," as they did, however.

Hobbes' view of man's natural state was, "solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short."

yeah, I dimly recall that line

no, bein' free isn't easy, and -- yeah -- there's an solitary aspect, but it doesn't follow that bein' free leads to a poor, nasty, brutish, and short existence

I quite agree. I wasn't defending any of those views, only pointing out what they were for Belinda.

[RCSaunders]

What? Unless some government makes you do the right thing, you wouldn't?

Some certainly wouldn’t.

those same folks, right now, surrounded by government & law do, crappy things

what good has government & law been in curtailin' 'em?

sometimes government & law even assists those garbage people in their misdeeds

self-responsible, self-directing, moral men have no need of government (they may have a use for proxies, though); and no use for law

criminals & the immoral (the ones who get all the attention but who are a minority) aren't particularly blunted by government or law (proxies, of the right kind, can help, though, in keepin' garbage people in line)

Sadly, recent news is filled with more innocents being shot or harmed by the police than are being protected by them. I know it's anecdotal, but it does illustrate your point, Henry.

[henry quirk]

Rousseau, Nietzsche, and Max Stirner all taught variations of naturalistic egoism. G.B. Shaw's, "Man and Superman," is an interpretation of that philosophy.

I do not think Henry means the same thing by, "man's natural state," as they did, however.

Hobbes' view of man's natural state was, "solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short."

yeah, I dimly recall that line

no, bein' free isn't easy, and -- yeah -- there's an solitary aspect, but it doesn't follow that bein' free leads to a poor, nasty, brutish, and short existence

I quite agree. I wasn't defending any of those views, only pointing out what they were for Belinda.

yeah, I know

I was just tryin' to be more like the rest of you with the lecturin' and pontificatin'...