Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Mar 31, 2020 6:36 pm
What should a good God have done to prevent the person who created this particular virus from doing what he did?
Why do you keep falling back on the idea that humans created viruses? What evidence do you have that supports that assertion?
I don't, Gary. I'm only pointing out that COVID-19 was created by human beings. Viruses in general were not. But as I said, I'm happy to go on to discuss viruses in general, but shouldn't we do something with COVID-19 first?
I think it can be very helpful to be more specific about what we're expecting of God.
Why do you think COVID-19 was created by human beings? What evidence do you have of this?
Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Mar 31, 2020 7:25 pm
I didn't raise the charge. Gary did. I'm just asking what he meant.
I'm asking you about your statement "what we're expecting of God". Do you expect anything of God -- if so, what?
I know what you're asking. But this is Gary's party, and I'm going to let him lead.
The floor is his.
There isn't a floor. Why would you ask such a thing of Gary, and yet be unwilling to answer such a question put to yourself? How are his expectations any different than yours? You can tell us yours... and he can tell us his... and then we can see the difference.
Gary Childress wrote: ↑Tue Mar 31, 2020 8:16 pm
Why do you think COVID-19 was created by human beings? What evidence do you have of this?
Well, there are two stories of how COVID-19 started. So I don't know which one to believe, but it doesn't much matter. One is that somebody in a lab created it. Okay. Whatever. The other is that somebody in Wuhan, China consumed an animal -- perhaps a bat -- and the virus mutated and spread from that decision. Okay, Whatever.
Either way, at the origin of the COVID-19 virus particularly, we have a human being, who made a choice. Maybe he/she knew what he/she was doing, and maybe not. But he/she performed some action that issued in this particular virus being released on the world.
Gary Childress wrote: ↑Tue Mar 31, 2020 8:16 pm
Why do you think COVID-19 was created by human beings? What evidence do you have of this?
Well, there are two stories of how COVID-19 started. So I don't know which one to believe, but it doesn't much matter. One is that somebody in a lab created it. Okay. Whatever. The other is that somebody in Wuhan, China consumed an animal -- perhaps a bat -- and the virus mutated and spread from that decision. Okay, Whatever.
Either way, at the origin of the COVID-19 virus particularly, we have a human being, who made a choice. Maybe he/she knew what he/she was doing, and maybe not. But he/she performed some action that issued in this particular virus being released on the world.
Or do you have a third theory, Gary?
That's like saying a person made a choice to move to Houston to live and therefore the hurricane that hit was the "fault" of that human.
Gary Childress wrote: ↑Tue Mar 31, 2020 8:16 pm
Why do you think COVID-19 was created by human beings? What evidence do you have of this?
Well, there are two stories of how COVID-19 started. So I don't know which one to believe, but it doesn't much matter. One is that somebody in a lab created it. Okay. Whatever. The other is that somebody in Wuhan, China consumed an animal -- perhaps a bat -- and the virus mutated and spread from that decision. Okay, Whatever.
Either way, at the origin of the COVID-19 virus particularly, we have a human being, who made a choice. Maybe he/she knew what he/she was doing, and maybe not. But he/she performed some action that issued in this particular virus being released on the world.
Or do you have a third theory, Gary?
That's like saying a person made a choice to move to Houston to live and therefore the hurricane that hit was the "fault" of that human.
No, no, Gary...I'm not assigning blame. Just agency.
I don't know if you want to call it the "fault" of, say, the guy who ate the bat or the man in the lab. All I want to point out is that at the inception of this particular problem, a human being did something. Maybe he's entirely innocent of what he did; it matters not at all to the outcome, I think you'll agree.
That makes it different from a hurricane. Nobody "starts" a hurricane (though environmentalists seem to want to tell us they can). But somebody started this.
The important point is only to see that somebody did something -- an action.
Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Mar 31, 2020 8:24 pm
Well, there are two stories of how COVID-19 started. So I don't know which one to believe, but it doesn't much matter. One is that somebody in a lab created it. Okay. Whatever. The other is that somebody in Wuhan, China consumed an animal -- perhaps a bat -- and the virus mutated and spread from that decision. Okay, Whatever.
Either way, at the origin of the COVID-19 virus particularly, we have a human being, who made a choice. Maybe he/she knew what he/she was doing, and maybe not. But he/she performed some action that issued in this particular virus being released on the world.
Or do you have a third theory, Gary?
That's like saying a person made a choice to move to Houston to live and therefore the hurricane that hit was the "fault" of that human.
No, no, Gary...I'm not assigning blame. Just agency.
I don't know if you want to call it the "fault" of, say, the guy who ate the bat or the man in the lab. All I want to point out is that at the inception of this particular problem, a human being did something. Maybe he's entirely innocent of what he did; it matters not at all to the outcome, I think you'll agree.
That makes it different from a hurricane. Nobody "starts" a hurricane (though environmentalists seem to want to tell us they can). But somebody started this.
The important point is only to see that somebody did something.
No. You said humans "created" the virus. Do you believe God created the universe and knew what would happen when he created the first virus that mutated into another and then another until one became COVID-19? Or do you believe God didn't know? Or that God didn't create everything in the universe?
Gary Childress wrote: ↑Tue Mar 31, 2020 8:35 pm
No. You said humans "created" the virus.
In a manner of speaking, they did. For apart from that action taken by a human being, we would not have the virus, and the circumstances you deplore would never have happened. (I assume you don't mind bats having an internal organism benign to them, right? So it's not the mere existence of the virus that is perplexing you, but rather the fact that God did not prevent it from getting into humans, right?)
Do you believe God created the universe and knew what would happen when he created the first virus that mutated into another and then another until one became COVID-19?
Yes, certainly. But now we're onto the broader question of viruses in general. Are you done with COVID-19 specifically? Are you departing from the OP?
Gary Childress wrote: ↑Tue Mar 31, 2020 8:35 pm
No. You said humans "created" the virus.
In a manner of speaking, they did. For apart from that action taken by a human being, we would not have the virus, and the circumstances you deplore would never have happened. (I assume you don't mind bats having an internal organism benign to them, right? So it's not the mere existence of the virus that is perplexing you, but rather the fact that God did not prevent it from getting into humans, right?)
Do you believe God created the universe and knew what would happen when he created the first virus that mutated into another and then another until one became COVID-19?
Yes, certainly. But now we're onto the broader question of viruses in general. Are you done with COVID-19 specifically? Are you departing from the OP?
You have the right...I just want to know.
You didn't answer my questions. Did God know when he created the first virus that one would eventually mutate into COVID-19 or did he not know or did he not create the species viruses.
Gary Childress wrote: ↑Tue Mar 31, 2020 8:35 pm
No. You said humans "created" the virus.
In a manner of speaking, they did. For apart from that action taken by a human being, we would not have the virus, and the circumstances you deplore would never have happened. (I assume you don't mind bats having an internal organism benign to them, right? So it's not the mere existence of the virus that is perplexing you, but rather the fact that God did not prevent it from getting into humans, right?)
Do you believe God created the universe and knew what would happen when he created the first virus that mutated into another and then another until one became COVID-19?
Yes, certainly. But now we're onto the broader question of viruses in general. Are you done with COVID-19 specifically? Are you departing from the OP?
You have the right...I just want to know.
You didn't answer my questions. Did God know when he created the first virus that one would eventually mutate into COVID-19 or did he not know or did he not create the species viruses.
Sorry, Gary...I meant to do so.
Do you see the words, "Yes, certainly"? I intended them to refer to the question immediately above, as in "Yes, certainly, God knew."
Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Mar 31, 2020 8:47 pm
In a manner of speaking, they did. For apart from that action taken by a human being, we would not have the virus, and the circumstances you deplore would never have happened. (I assume you don't mind bats having an internal organism benign to them, right? So it's not the mere existence of the virus that is perplexing you, but rather the fact that God did not prevent it from getting into humans, right?)
Yes, certainly. But now we're onto the broader question of viruses in general. Are you done with COVID-19 specifically? Are you departing from the OP?
You have the right...I just want to know.
You didn't answer my questions. Did God know when he created the first virus that one would eventually mutate into COVID-19 or did he not know or did he not create the species viruses.
Sorry, Gary...I meant to do so.
Do you see the words, "Yes, certainly"? I intended them to refer to the question immediately above, as in "Yes, certainly, God knew."
OK. So God created viruses knowing full well what effect they would have on humans and that, eventually, one would mutate into one that would suffocate people in their own blood. Nice.
Gary Childress wrote: ↑Tue Mar 31, 2020 8:59 pm
OK. So God created viruses knowing full well what effect they would have on humans and that, eventually, one would mutate into one that would suffocate people in their own blood. Nice.
So now we go back to my original question. Let's agree that COVID-19 is a great evil.
What is it you think God should have done instead?
Gary Childress wrote: ↑Tue Mar 31, 2020 8:59 pm
OK. So God created viruses knowing full well what effect they would have on humans and that, eventually, one would mutate into one that would suffocate people in their own blood. Nice.
So now we go back to my original question. Let's agree that COVID-19 is a great evil.
What is it you think God should have done instead?
Not created any viruses to begin with or else not given them the capacity to cause that kind of misery.
Gary Childress wrote: ↑Tue Mar 31, 2020 6:09 am
After reading about some of the horror stories going on in New York and other places in the world from COVID-19 right now--people drowning in their own blood-filled lungs, medical personnel getting sick while trying to help others--it really makes me wonder what kind of "god" presides over such horror? Is there really a God at all? And if there were, would it not be a God of evil? I was once an atheist because I thought the world was too messed up to be run by a God. Later I was willing to switch to agnosticism because I thought maybe the world is not such an evil place after all. But now I see so much suffering and horror that It really makes me want to go back to being an atheist or else it makes me think God must be evil. I can't believe in a God who allows so much suffering.
What is God?
If he is the creator then he created the virus.
If he is omniscient then he knows all the effects and suffering the virus causes.
If he is omnipotent then he has the power to stop the virus and the suffering.
What else is God?
Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Mar 31, 2020 9:00 pm
What is it you think God should have done instead?
Not created any viruses to begin with or else not given them the capacity to cause that kind of misery.
Alright. So your suggestion is that God should not have created any viruses. Let's roll with that.
Just viruses? Or would a good God prevent bacteria, hurricanes, cancer...you know, other types of bad things as well.
In other words, would you be content to say to God, "Oh Lord, I thank Thee that in thy mercy, though Thou didst create hurricanes, cancer and bacteria, Thou did not, at the very least, create any awful things called 'viruses'."
Or would you expect more, of a genuinely good God?
