God and COVID-19

[Immanuel Can]

So what should a good God do about the people who create these things?

I seriously doubt humans created this virus and besides viruses have been around for as long as people have, long before biological warfare and gene manipulation. You have to do some pretty fancy dancing to apologize for God in this case.

Well, let's see. No apologies, but perhaps some discursive exploration of how we can think about these things.

So let's walk with COVID-19 for a bit, since it's the present case, then look at viruses more generally, if you want. And I promise not to ignore any of the cases you've suggested, either. Just bring them up when you feel satisfied we've come to all we can come to on COVID-19.

What should a good God have done to prevent the person who created this particular virus from doing what he did?

[philosopher]

So you believe in a God that doesn't intervene? Why not just dispense with the God belief altogether? Of what use is it to posit the existence of an entity that doesn't do anything, let alone worship it if it's to no end.

Good question, which I can answer, but I don't want to for personal reasons.

But I'd like to emphasize that I do not claim to have evidence for God's existence in the first place.
I simply don't know if God exists, unlike other religious people who claim to "know" (firmly believe) in the existence of God.

Science is important, more important than going to church.

[Gary Childress]

After reading about some of the horror stories going on in New York and other places in the world from COVID-19 right now--people drowning in their own blood-filled lungs, medical personnel getting sick while trying to help others--it really makes me wonder what kind of "god" presides over such horror? Is there really a God at all? And if there were, would it not be a God of evil? I was once an atheist because I thought the world was too messed up to be run by a God. Later I was willing to switch to agnosticism because I thought maybe the world is not such an evil place after all. But now I see so much suffering and horror that It really makes me want to go back to being an atheist or else it makes me think God must be evil. I can't believe in a God who allows so much suffering.

Some conceptions of god have him bein' vengeful, more than willin' to rain down hell on the wicked (collateral damage notwithstanding).

Some conceptions of god have him lettin' things play out, lettin' folks do, so that he may levy judgement on each for his vileness and his virtue in this life, in the afterlife.

My god is not vengeful, or judgemental: he's just gone, like an artist finished with one work and now busy with another.

We're on our own, which isn't so bad, if you think about it.

I can think of more hospitable worlds to be "on our own" in.

[Gary Childress]

So what should a good God do about the people who create these things?

I seriously doubt humans created this virus and besides viruses have been around for as long as people have, long before biological warfare and gene manipulation. You have to do some pretty fancy dancing to apologize for God in this case.

Well, let's see. No apologies, but perhaps some discursive exploration of how we can think about these things.

So let's walk with COVID-19 for a bit, since it's the present case, then look at viruses more generally, if you want. And I promise not to ignore any of the cases you've suggested, either. Just bring them up when you feel satisfied we've come to all we can come to on COVID-19.

What should a good God have done to prevent the person who created this particular virus from doing what he did?

Why do you keep falling back on the idea that humans created viruses? What evidence do you have that supports that assertion?

[Gary Childress]

So you believe in a God that doesn't intervene? Why not just dispense with the God belief altogether? Of what use is it to posit the existence of an entity that doesn't do anything, let alone worship it if it's to no end.

Good question, which I can answer, but I don't want to for private reasons.

But I'd like to emphasize that I do not claim to have evidence for God's existence in the first place.
I simply don't know if God exists, unlike other religious people who claim to "know" (firmly believe) in the existence of God.

Science is important, more important than going to church.

It sounds like you are agnostic, as am I.

[henry quirk]

After reading about some of the horror stories going on in New York and other places in the world from COVID-19 right now--people drowning in their own blood-filled lungs, medical personnel getting sick while trying to help others--it really makes me wonder what kind of "god" presides over such horror? Is there really a God at all? And if there were, would it not be a God of evil? I was once an atheist because I thought the world was too messed up to be run by a God. Later I was willing to switch to agnosticism because I thought maybe the world is not such an evil place after all. But now I see so much suffering and horror that It really makes me want to go back to being an atheist or else it makes me think God must be evil. I can't believe in a God who allows so much suffering.

Some conceptions of god have him bein' vengeful, more than willin' to rain down hell on the wicked (collateral damage notwithstanding).

Some conceptions of god have him lettin' things play out, lettin' folks do, so that he may levy judgement on each for his vileness and his virtue in this life, in the afterlife.

My god is not vengeful, or judgemental: he's just gone, like an artist finished with one work and now busy with another.

We're on our own, which isn't so bad, if you think about it.

I can think of more hospitable worlds to be "on our own" in.

So can I. But I'm here, so I make the best of it.

[Gary Childress]

Some conceptions of god have him bein' vengeful, more than willin' to rain down hell on the wicked (collateral damage notwithstanding).

Some conceptions of god have him lettin' things play out, lettin' folks do, so that he may levy judgement on each for his vileness and his virtue in this life, in the afterlife.

My god is not vengeful, or judgemental: he's just gone, like an artist finished with one work and now busy with another.

We're on our own, which isn't so bad, if you think about it.

I can think of more hospitable worlds to be "on our own" in.

So can I. But I'm here, so I make the best of it.

It's hard for me to "make the best of it" when people are dying so horribly. I prefer to complain to the landlord about the faulty wiring that I can't fix myself.

[Immanuel Can]

What should a good God have done to prevent the person who created this particular virus from doing what he did?

Why do you keep falling back on the idea that humans created viruses? What evidence do you have that supports that assertion?

I don't, Gary. I'm only pointing out that COVID-19 was created by human beings. Viruses in general were not. But as I said, I'm happy to go on to discuss viruses in general, but shouldn't we do something with COVID-19 first?

I think it can be very helpful to be more specific about what we're expecting of God.

[Lacewing]

I think it can be very helpful to be more specific about what we're expecting of God.

What do you expect of God?

[henry quirk]

So you believe in a God that doesn't intervene?

Yep.


Why not just dispense with the God belief altogether?

For me: god is an explanation for certain things (like free will, personhood, etc.). Dumpin' god is dumpin' explanation.


Of what use is it to posit the existence of an entity that doesn't do anything, let alone worship it if it's to no end.

My god requires no worship, hears no prayers, so I don't pray or worship. His use to me is, again, as explanation.


May as well worship a head of cabbage for all the difference it would make.

Indeed. So, instead, stand up, straighten your spine, live your life.

-----

It's hard for me to "make the best of it" when people are dying so horribly.

Meh. People die horribly all the time, everyday, from all manner of wacked out shit that has nuthin' to do with Fu Manflu.


I prefer to complain to the landlord about the faulty wiring that I can't fix myself.

Well, if my god is real, and if you were able to talk to him, he might say sumthin' like this...

Gary, I made you free and capable, if the world is not to your liking, go and change it, or not: your choice.

I coulda made paradise and populated it with perfect puppets who only think right and do right, but I didn't and don't want puppets or pets. I want people, free men and women, persons.

You might ask him but why do you want persons?

And he might say why do gardeners grow roses, or novelists write books, or parents raise children, or painters paint, or sculptors sculpt, or poets compose, or fishermen fish then throw back the catch, or atoms fuse or fission, or the winds blow? It's about creation, guy, and nuthin' but.

[henry quirk]

COVID-19 was created by human beings

Really? I thought it was just a lil virus that jumped species cuz commies eat garbage animals.

You sayin' wu-flu was manufactured?

[Immanuel Can]

I think it can be very helpful to be more specific about what we're expecting of God.

What do you expect of God?

I didn't raise the charge. Gary did. I'm just asking what he meant.

[Immanuel Can]

COVID-19 was created by human beings

Really? I thought it was just a lil virus that jumped species cuz commies eat garbage animals.

You sayin' wu-flu was manufactured?

No.

I'm saying its existence, and the present plague which Gary so deplores, is attributable to human action. It would never have existed if (depending on which story one believes) a man had not created it in a lab, or a Chinese person had not eaten something in a wet market in China. Whichever it was, it was somebody's decision that precipitated the present crisis...whether he knew it or not.

[Lacewing]

I think it can be very helpful to be more specific about what we're expecting of God.

What do you expect of God?

I didn't raise the charge. Gary did. I'm just asking what he meant.

I'm asking you about your statement "what we're expecting of God". Do you expect anything of God -- if so, what?

[Lacewing]

My god requires no worship, hears no prayers, so I don't pray or worship. His use to me is, again, as explanation.

Explanation of what?

And why that idea for explanations, rather than other ideas?