Do Not Blame Muslims!

[Logik]

I am speaking based on objective facts.I have provided you the factual evidences and the supporting reasons.
Note, it is in the Quran, Muslims who die for their religion in killing of infidels non-Muslims will receive a 10 fold reward in comparison other good deeds.
You have to read the Quran thoroughly to understand what I am insisting on.

So what?

Based on the evidence you have inferred what you have inferred. And you have concluded what you have concluded.
That doesn't mean you are right, or that your proposed way forward will have the effect you intend/desire. It is just a hypothesis.

If you remove Islamic terrorism and the total number of terrorist attacks remains unchanged that would be deciding evidence that you hypothesis is wrong. Reality doesn't give a shit about your "objective facts". Only about the accuracy of your predictions.

Similarly: if your efforts to remove Islamic terrorism backfires and results in an increased number of terrorist attacks then you should probably stop doing what you are doing!

You are expending far too much energy on rational thought, and not enough on rational action. Feedback from reality is essential. Fail fast!

[Atla]

I am speaking based on objective facts.I have provided you the factual evidences and the supporting reasons.
Note, it is in the Quran, Muslims who die for their religion in killing of infidels non-Muslims will receive a 10 fold reward in comparison other good deeds.
You have to read the Quran thoroughly to understand what I am insisting on.

So what?

Based on the evidence you have inferred what you have inferred. And you have concluded what you have concluded.
That doesn't mean you are right, or that your proposed way forward will have the effect you intend/desire. It is just a hypothesis.

If you remove Islamic terrorism and the total number of terrorist attacks remains unchanged that would be deciding evidence that you hypothesis is wrong. Reality doesn't give a shit about your "objective facts". Only about the accuracy of your predictions.

Similarly: if your efforts to remove Islamic terrorism backfires and results in an increased number of terrorist attacks then you should probably stop doing what you are doing!

You are expending far too much energy on rational thought, and not enough on rational action. Feedback from reality is essential. Fail fast!

Timeseeker is back?

[Veritas Aequitas]

I am speaking based on objective facts.I have provided you the factual evidences and the supporting reasons.
Note, it is in the Quran, Muslims who die for their religion in killing of infidels non-Muslims will receive a 10 fold reward in comparison other good deeds.
You have to read the Quran thoroughly to understand what I am insisting on.

So what?

Based on the evidence you have inferred what you have inferred. And you have concluded what you have concluded.
That doesn't mean you are right, or that your proposed way forward will have the effect you intend/desire. It is just a hypothesis.

If you remove Islamic terrorism and the total number of terrorist attacks remains unchanged that would be deciding evidence that you hypothesis is wrong. Reality doesn't give a shit about your "objective facts". Only about the accuracy of your predictions.

Similarly: if your efforts to remove Islamic terrorism backfires and results in an increased number of terrorist attacks then you should probably stop doing what you are doing!

You are expending far too much energy on rational thought, and not enough on rational action. Feedback from reality is essential. Fail fast!

Timeseeker is back?

OIC, no wonder the similarities.
Thanks.

Timekeeper, what's going on in your country with the immoral land expatriation without compensation?

[Veritas Aequitas]

So what?

Based on the evidence you have inferred what you have inferred. And you have concluded what you have concluded.
That doesn't mean you are right, or that your proposed way forward will have the effect you intend/desire. It is just a hypothesis.

If you remove Islamic terrorism and the total number of terrorist attacks remains unchanged that would be deciding evidence that you hypothesis is wrong. Reality doesn't give a shit about your "objective facts". Only about the accuracy of your predictions.

Similarly: if your efforts to remove Islamic terrorism backfires and results in an increased number of terrorist attacks then you should probably stop doing what you are doing!

You are expending far too much energy on rational thought, and not enough on rational action. Feedback from reality is essential. Fail fast!

Timeseeker is back?

OIC, no wonder the similarities.
Thanks.

Timekeeper, what's going on in your country with the immoral land expatriation without compensation?

Timekeeper aka Logik aka Skepdick.

[HereToDiscuss]

Problem is you are not educating your brain/mind.

And your problem is hasty generalization.

If you remove Islam and terrorist attacks remain unchanged the evidence will speaks for itself.

The rest is you trying to rationalize your position.

I am speaking based on objective facts.
I have provided you the factual evidences and the supporting reasons.
Note, it is in the Quran, Muslims who die for their religion in killing of infidels non-Muslims will receive a 10 fold reward in comparison other good deeds.
You have to read the Quran thoroughly to understand what I am insisting on.

There is no verse in the Quran that says Muslim who die for their religion in killing of infidels will receive 10 times more reward compared to other Muslims who didn't do such a thing though. If there is, please show us.

[Veritas Aequitas]

And your problem is hasty generalization.

If you remove Islam and terrorist attacks remain unchanged the evidence will speaks for itself.

The rest is you trying to rationalize your position.

I am speaking based on objective facts.
I have provided you the factual evidences and the supporting reasons.
Note, it is in the Quran, Muslims who die for their religion in killing of infidels non-Muslims will receive a 10 fold reward in comparison other good deeds.
You have to read the Quran thoroughly to understand what I am insisting on.

There is no verse in the Quran that says Muslim who die for their religion in killing of infidels will receive 10 times more reward compared to other Muslims who didn't do such a thing though. If there is, please show us.

Yes, there are no single verse in the Quran that assert the said point but one has to link the various relevant verses to arrive at the above conclusion.
I have to get to the Quran and produce the combination of verses to support the above later.

[HereToDiscuss]

Please just do not randomly select a bunch of verses and paste them together though: Context and the wording is important. When it comes to the Quran, that is usually overlooked by Muslims -who just select the most far fetched explanation or just follow the traditional one- and non-Muslims.

[Veritas Aequitas]

Please just do not randomly select a bunch of verses and paste them together though: Context and the wording is important. When it comes to the Quran, that is usually overlooked by Muslims -who just select the most far fetched explanation or just follow the traditional one- and non-Muslims.

I arrived at that conclusion based on the context of the ethos of the whole Quran. Problem is I did not compile them for ready presentation. So I will have to search for them, if you are familiar with the Quran, you will understand this is not easy.

Here are the verses in context - this is a rough one, not precise until I dig through the whole Quran, but I believe these are sufficient for a start.

• 2:245. Who [Muslim] is it that will lend unto Allah a goodly [ḥasanan; HSN; ] loan, so that He [Allah] may give it increase manifold? Allah straiteneth and enlargeth. Unto Him ye [Muslim] will return. [on Judgment Day] [goodly loan refer property or life].
  
  6:160. Whoso [Muslims] bringeth a good deed [HSN; bil-ḥasanati] will receive tenfold the like thereof, while whoso [infidels] bringeth an ill deed [SWA: sayi-ati] will be awarded [punished] but the like thereof; and they will not be wronged. [reward and punishment fairly merited/meted]
  
  5:33. The only reward [punishment] of those [infidels] who make war [HRB: yuḥāribūna] upon Allah and His messenger and strive [S3Y: wayasʿawna ] after corruption [FSD: fasādan; mischiefs, wronged, disbelief] in the land - will be that they [infidels] will be killed or crucified, or have their [infidels'] hands and feet on alternate sides cut off, or will be expelled out of the land. Such will be their [infidels] degradation [KhZY: khiz'yun] in the world, and in the Hereafter theirs [infidels] will be an awful doom;
  
  Note: In the above, [FSD: fasādan;] include disbelieving Allah and Muhammad as per Ibn Kathir
  
  (The recompense of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger and do mischief in the land is only that they shall be killed or crucified or their hands and their feet be cut off on the opposite sides, or be exiled from the land.) `Wage war' mentioned here means, oppose and contradict, and it includes disbelief, blocking roads and spreading fear in the fairways. Mischief in the land refers to various types of evil.
  http://www.qtafsir.com/index.php?option ... &Itemid=60

In 5:33 [FSD: fasādan;] include disbelieving Allah and Muhammad, i.e. those who disbelieve and they are to be killed or crucified.
Thus those Muslims who deal with [FSD: fasādan;] i.e. kill disbelievers [5:33] are doing a good deed [HSN; bil-ḥasanati] and thus will receive tenfold the rewards. 6:160

The above is the rough compilation of verses but sufficient to support my point. To be more conclusive, I can bring the whole 6236 verses to support the point. But this will take time.

Btw, note;
if you are to counter the above which is accepted by many Muslims, WHO ARE YOU and what divine authority do you have to insist they are wrong?
If you insist they are wrong and you are right, then you are making your own judgement to override Allah's authority.

[Eodnhoj7]

Please just do not randomly select a bunch of verses and paste them together though: Context and the wording is important. When it comes to the Quran, that is usually overlooked by Muslims -who just select the most far fetched explanation or just follow the traditional one- and non-Muslims.

I arrived at that conclusion based on the context of the ethos of the whole Quran. Problem is I did not compile them for ready presentation. So I will have to search for them, if you are familiar with the Quran, you will understand this is not easy.

Here are the verses in context - this is a rough one, not precise until I dig through the whole Quran, but I believe these are sufficient for a start.

• 2:245. Who [Muslim] is it that will lend unto Allah a goodly [ḥasanan; HSN; ] loan, so that He [Allah] may give it increase manifold? Allah straiteneth and enlargeth. Unto Him ye [Muslim] will return. [on Judgment Day] [goodly loan refer property or life].
  
  6:160. Whoso [Muslims] bringeth a good deed [HSN; bil-ḥasanati] will receive tenfold the like thereof, while whoso [infidels] bringeth an ill deed [SWA: sayi-ati] will be awarded [punished] but the like thereof; and they will not be wronged. [reward and punishment fairly merited/meted]
  
  5:33. The only reward [punishment] of those [infidels] who make war [HRB: yuḥāribūna] upon Allah and His messenger and strive [S3Y: wayasʿawna ] after corruption [FSD: fasādan; mischiefs, wronged, disbelief] in the land - will be that they [infidels] will be killed or crucified, or have their [infidels'] hands and feet on alternate sides cut off, or will be expelled out of the land. Such will be their [infidels] degradation [KhZY: khiz'yun] in the world, and in the Hereafter theirs [infidels] will be an awful doom;
  
  Note: In the above, [FSD: fasādan;] include disbelieving Allah and Muhammad as per Ibn Kathir
  
  (The recompense of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger and do mischief in the land is only that they shall be killed or crucified or their hands and their feet be cut off on the opposite sides, or be exiled from the land.) `Wage war' mentioned here means, oppose and contradict, and it includes disbelief, blocking roads and spreading fear in the fairways. Mischief in the land refers to various types of evil.
  http://www.qtafsir.com/index.php?option ... &Itemid=60

In 5:33 [FSD: fasādan;] include disbelieving Allah and Muhammad, i.e. those who disbelieve and they are to be killed or crucified.
Thus those Muslims who deal with [FSD: fasādan;] i.e. kill disbelievers [5:33] are doing a good deed [HSN; bil-ḥasanati] and thus will receive tenfold the rewards. 6:160

The above is the rough compilation of verses but sufficient to support my point. To be more conclusive, I can bring the whole 6236 verses to support the point. But this will take time.

Btw, note;
if you are to counter the above which is accepted by many Muslims, WHO ARE YOU and what divine authority do you have to insist they are wrong?
If you insist they are wrong and you are right, then you are making your own judgement to override Allah's authority.

You do know atheistic communism killed a record number of people in one century alone...

So war and suffering is not really limited to traditional religion.

[Veritas Aequitas]

You do know atheistic communism killed a record number of people in one century alone...

So war and suffering is not really limited to traditional religion.

This is veering off tangent to 'whataboutery'.
Just because atheistic communism killed people, does it mean we should not deal with the killings by the ideology of Islam.
You are so stupid in this point and something is very wrong with you.
I believe if you are charged with serial killing in court, your defense to the jury and judge would be 'what about atheistic communism killing a record number of people'?

Besides this section is about Philosophy of Religion, not Philosophy of Politics.
Do know how to keep to topic?

[HereToDiscuss]

I arrived at that conclusion based on the context of the ethos of the whole Quran. Problem is I did not compile them for ready presentation. So I will have to search for them, if you are familiar with the Quran, you will understand this is not easy.
Here are the verses in context - this is a rough one, not precise until I dig through the whole Quran, but I believe these are sufficient for a start.

Well, those aren't verses in context though. I do not know what you understood when i said "in context", but it surely wasn't what i actually meant. Those verses have verses behind and in front of them. Anyways:

• 2:245. Who [Muslim] is it that will lend unto Allah a goodly [ḥasanan; HSN; ] loan, so that He [Allah] may give it increase manifold? Allah straiteneth and enlargeth. Unto Him ye [Muslim] will return. [on Judgment Day] [goodly loan refer property or life].

While this is a bit of a weird wording -Quran is weirdly worded in general, so whatever-, it is more about giving money to the poor etc. than killing infidels. Since there definitely are verses that encrouage giving money in such a way, i would say that it isn't related to infidels at all.
You're probably trying too much to find violent verses.

6:160. Whoso [Muslims] bringeth a good deed [HSN; bil-ḥasanati] will receive tenfold the like thereof, while whoso [infidels] bringeth an ill deed [SWA: sayi-ati] will be awarded [punished] but the like thereof; and they will not be wronged. [reward and punishment fairly merited/meted]

Well, the verse is just "Do good deeds, expect good results, do bad deeds, expect bad results (in proportion to your bad deed)." Where did you get the infidel from? Muslims can do ill deeds too.

5:33. The only reward [punishment] of those [infidels] who make war [HRB: yuḥāribūna] upon Allah and His messenger and strive [S3Y: wayasʿawna ] after corruption [FSD: fasādan; mischiefs, wronged, disbelief] in the land - will be that they [infidels] will be killed or crucified, or have their [infidels'] hands and feet on alternate sides cut off, or will be expelled out of the land. Such will be their [infidels] degradation [KhZY: khiz'yun] in the world, and in the Hereafter theirs [infidels] will be an awful doom;

Note: In the above, [FSD: fasādan;] include disbelieving Allah and Muhammad as per Ibn Kathir

(The recompense of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger and do mischief in the land is only that they shall be killed or crucified or their hands and their feet be cut off on the opposite sides, or be exiled from the land.) `Wage war' mentioned here means, oppose and contradict, and it includes disbelief, blocking roads and spreading fear in the fairways. Mischief in the land refers to various types of evil.
http://www.qtafsir.com/index.php?option ... &Itemid=60

Fasadan can mean anything from "declaring war on the Muslims" to "cause instability" and is a pretty vague word with no clear meaning. You can compare it with "distrupting order" used by governments, which is the almost the same thing but more secular. If and only if you think disbelieving implies distrupting order can you punish infidels in such a way, but you do not have to. Of course, the verse is problematic since it is vague, but, that's another problem -or a problem for Muslims since Allah allowing such an abusable verse doesn't seem to be something the absolute good god would do-.

Btw, note;
if you are to counter the above which is accepted by many Muslims, WHO ARE YOU and what divine authority do you have to insist they are wrong?
If you insist they are wrong and you are right, then you are making your own judgement to override Allah's authority.

Well, i'm not a Muslim, so...

[Eodnhoj7]

You do know atheistic communism killed a record number of people in one century alone...

So war and suffering is not really limited to traditional religion.

This is veering off tangent to 'whataboutery'.
Just because atheistic communism killed people, does it mean we should not deal with the killings by the ideology of Islam.
You are so stupid in this point and something is very wrong with you.
I believe if you are charged with serial killing in court, your defense to the jury and judge would be 'what about atheistic communism killing a record number of people'?

Besides this section is about Philosophy of Religion, not Philosophy of Politics.
Do know how to keep to topic?

Not really, the thread is about Not blaming Muslims and I am saying atheistic and pagan (antiquity) governments have done equal to or worse.

[SpheresOfBalance]

I'm not one of those fool enough to subscribe to groupism. If someone does harm to another, I only blame the individual that did such harm. I mean I'm sure they might belong to many groups, such that if a man does harm to another, I'm not going to blame all men. Neither will I blame all diabetics if the culprit is insulin resistant.

[HereToDiscuss]

I'm not one of those fool enough to subscribe to groupism. If someone does harm to another, I only blame the individual that did such harm. I mean I'm sure they might belong to many groups, such that if a man does harm to another, I'm not going to blame all men. Neither will I blame all diabetics if the culprit is insulin resistant.

It's good that you consider yourself "not foolish enough to subscribe to groupism" and all, but, unlike insulin resistant murderers, Muslim terrorists do it based on Islam. The religion certainly has an impact here, along with culture. To suggest otherwise, i would say, is irrational. The main problem is the nature of the impact-or, to put it another way, whetever the reason is Islam in it's essence, meaning we have to eradicate it, or Islam mixed with culture and history.

[SpheresOfBalance]

I'm not one of those fool enough to subscribe to groupism. If someone does harm to another, I only blame the individual that did such harm. I mean I'm sure they might belong to many groups, such that if a man does harm to another, I'm not going to blame all men. Neither will I blame all diabetics if the culprit is insulin resistant.

It's good that you consider yourself "not foolish enough to subscribe to groupism" and all, but, unlike insulin resistant murderers, Muslim terrorists do it based on Islam. The religion certainly has an impact here, along with culture. To suggest otherwise, i would say, is irrational. The main problem is the nature of the impact-or, to put it another way, whetever the reason is Islam in it's essence, meaning we have to eradicate it, or Islam mixed with culture and history.

First I understand that the Quran has been misunderstood by many, that context of any particular verse has to be considered before passing judgement. Scholars agree that there is no passage that instructs Muslims to kill all non believers of their faith.

In psychology, as to child abuse, it is said that, 'It's not true that all abused children become child abusers, but it is true that all child abusers were abused children.'

I see that your words have no necessarily real understanding of psychology, that your belief simply makes it easy for you. You know, 'Kill them all and let god sort them out!'

Do you really want me to list all the terrorism and unjustified death that the Christian church has dealt?

Here, I have a few links for you to check out if you feel so inclined to understand my position.
The first 5 are just snippets for the sixth, and the seventh is the icing for the cake.

https://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/21/movi ... wrong.html
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QTOWNwtdN3o
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a-u2ZoPTPwM
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt2294551/
https://www.creatingfreedom.info/film.html
https://tubitv.com/movies/321234/creati ... y_of_birth <---The actual movie
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unethical ... ates#1950s

If you fail to check out link 6 & 7 you'll really miss America's role. Keep in mind that the essence of the movie is not really sided, as it illuminates a much larger perspective. Humanity!