Prostitution and Eternal Values

[Dontaskme]

Also, as I've said before, I'm suspicious of your methodology because I think it is often a separatist dance that you are doing... in the way that, say, religion might do... representing itself as "the knower of all answers" to be told to "others" who are "not".

We better stop knowing stuff then hadn't we?

Knowing any-thing is what creates a knower.

A centre in which the knowing is apparently housed.

The 'knower' cannot know that there is no knower to know that would need a knower.

There is only the knowing. The knower and the known emerge from within the split mind.They are conceptual overlays..the dream of separation.

Where did all those people in your dream last night come from....Where did they go?

Idiot.

.

I simply find your loopy word salads uninteresting to interact with

Why are your loopy word salads more interesting than mine...do they have more dressing on? whereas mine are a bit too naked/bland for your taste.

.

Oh I forgot, you hate playing with your equals don't you? ..I forgot that.

Do you even know how to play word games? or do you take words very seriously.

You see I don't take them very seriously at all.

And that's what makes me smarter than you...haha!

.

Notice I put lot of lol's after the post...seems like one simply has no sense of humour so be it...I'll just play with myself as usual...like I always do, alone again naturally.

.

[Yrreg]

From Dontaskme
"Are you suggesting that if the earth were destroyed, eternal values as universal truths would no longer exist?"

From Yrger
If the earth were destroyed we would not be anymore existing, so no need at all for us to ask the question about eternal values existing - as we don't exist, how can we ask?

First, you must talk about things like eternal values, only as you know you and I exist, and not bring in a contrary to fact condition.

That is not to my view sound philosophy, but fiction for your amusement.

From Dontaskme
Of course we need to ask the question about eternal values existing..for without asking this question we've only got halve the story about who it is that exists in the first place...come on lets try and be intelligent about this.

Let you just continue in your fiction of us mankind not existing, and talk about how no-prostitution would be an eternal value for man (who does not exist in your fiction of the condition against fact).

I tell you that bringing in a condition against fact to argue to the eternal value of no-prostitution for mankind, that is as I inform you: pure amusement for your entertainment.

That is the fallacy of humans who want to impose a rule on fellow humans, and for lack of any persuasive argument, they appeal to eternal values.

But as I tell you, man does not exist in eternal time, but here and now.

So, you want to convince the law makers of a particular society to enact a law compelling the members of this particular society to not engage in prostitution, on pain of what, like a monetary fine or worse imprisonment?

You will not convince them, proof of that is the abolition of law in modern societies prohibiting the presence of prostitutes.*

The reason is because they see to your fallacy, and they will not be coerced to act according to your fallacious reasoning.


*Google abolition of law against prostitutes.

[Lacewing]

I'll just play with myself as usual...like I always do, alone again naturally.

Do you notice that when it concerns you and your feelings, all kinds of things are real and exist -- but when you respond to what concerns other people and their feelings, you immediately point out how much is not real and does not exist? Would you like for someone to always respond to your concerns and comments that way? People ask you reasonable questions about inconsistencies, and then you throw word salad in their face, or say that you don't care, or admit that it's all crazy. I imagine you as a sweet, nice, sensitive person face-to-face -- I've just noticed these patterns about you online, and considering how thoughtful you are, I wonder: don't you see the double-standards, and the way things flip to suit yourself?

You are clearly a person with feelings and thoughts. Why don't you allow others to exist?

My questioning is genuine, and I wish you well... I have no malice.

[Dontaskme]

Do you notice that when it concerns you and your feelings, all kinds of things are real and exist.

Who told you that? I have never given my self permission to be human..where would that notion have come from? why in the world would we think we know of such things as who is the knower?

How can "eternal values" and "universal truths" be anything other than notions made-up by humans? Why in the world we think we know of such things is fascinating.

but when you respond to what concerns other people and their feelings, you immediately point out how much is not real and does not exist?

Who told you that? where would that notion have come from? why in the world would we think we know of such things as who is the knower?

Would you like for someone to always respond to your concerns and comments that way?

Couldn't give a monkeys, people may respond what the heck they like to me or simply ignore me...I'm not going to be offended, I'm just being myself here, expressing the real me, not the pretending me, or being the fake me, just being myself and being proud to be me. I like me... If you don't like me then that's none of my business, I'm just trying to be friendly here, it's not my problem if my unconditional love for others is unrequited...I've always got myself to fall back on, at least having myself to myself is a guaranteed yes of approval every time, at least this one stays loyal to me...I've always got me.

(just kidding)

[Arising_uk]

...
Oh god not again...muggings just happen to no one, meaning muggings although they appear to happen to people don't actually happen to people, they just happen to no one...know one...you have to know one to be one....one one one one one aka no one.... How many more times do I have to repeat this nonsense to you..? ...

I don't know, how many times will you be repeating this nonsense?

Look, please stop concerning yourself with my nonsense...I only talk about nothing, I love talking about nothing, it's the only thing I know anything about...if you want to know something, dontaskme, or expect dontaskme to give you what you are looking for, if you what to know something, you'll just have to go back to school..isn't that the place where your supposed to learn knowledge? why you asking me..I know nothing.

To be honest I know that you know nothing but I respond because I dislike leaving such a mish-mash of 'eastern' religious metaphyics unchallenged, not least because 'western' philosophy has it's own traditions that address such issues and its annoying that these have been ignored and doubly annoying that the eastern traditions have been cherry picked to suit the western mindset. On top of that the butchery to Logic and Language is just unbearable given that Logic is just about the only thing that Philosophy can call its own.

[Arising_uk]

Oh really..what the heck are you talking about man...perception and sensation what the heck does that even mean..except as they are known by given meaning to the concepts. ...

They are not concepts they are the ideas upon which concepts are built.

That's what ''known'' means.

"Unknowable known" isn't.

It's a label.

Of or on what?

For example...when shopping in a supermarket, it is wise to go for cans and packets of foods that have labels on them informing you what they are..else it would be like a box of chocolates..you'd never know what you are going to get.

Show me this 'God' that is as real as a can or packet?

[Yrreg]

[ . . . . ]

Show me this 'God' that is as real as a can or packet?

Dear Arising, I am a theist of the school I call diy Christianity.

God is as real in terms of existence as opposed to non-existence, as a can or a packet.

In fact the evidence of God existing are objects made by man like a can or a packet: these objects are made by man, using the things and the laws made by God: without the things and laws made by God, man would not be able to ever have invented a can and a packet.

[Belinda]

Yrreg wrote:

the evidence of God existing are objects made by man like a can or a packet: these objects are made by man, using the things and the laws made by God: without the things and laws made by God, man would not be able to ever have invented a can and a packet.

This is true for deists but not for theists. Arguably, what most people i.e. most theists, mean by 'God' is a being which transcends natural life, time, history, and relativity (such as you describe) , but also can and does intervene in natural life,time,history, and relativity.

The God which matches your description " without the things and laws made by God, man would not be able to ever have invented a can and a packet." does not according to that description alone work miracles or do anything other than set up the basic laws of nature.

According to " without the things and laws made by God, man would not be able to ever have invented a can and a packet." there is no guarantee that God is benevolent and good.

[Arising_uk]

Dear Arising, I am a theist of the school I call diy Christianity.

God is as real in terms of existence as opposed to non-existence, as a can or a packet.

In fact the evidence of God existing are objects made by man like a can or a packet: these objects are made by man, using the things and the laws made by God: without the things and laws made by God, man would not be able to ever have invented a can and a packet.

So not as real as a can or a packet then or can you show me this DIY 'God' like you can with a can or a packet?

[Nick_A]

How many would have the ability to prostitute eternal beauty? Doing so requires having experienced our limitations as opposed to expressing conditioned subjective responses to external stimuli. If we intentionally diminish its meaning and value for pragmatic gain, isn’t that prostitution?

https://www.rowan.edu/philosop/clowney/ ... /plato.htm

Plato had a love-hate relationship with the arts. He must have had some love for the arts, because he talks about them often, and his remarks show that he paid close attention to what he saw and heard. He was also a fine literary stylist and a great story-teller; in fact he is said to have been a poet before he encountered Socrates and became a philosopher. Some of his dialogues are real literary masterpieces. On the other hand, he found the arts threatening. He proposed sending the poets and playwrights out of his ideal Republic, or at least censoring what they wrote; and he wanted music and painting severely censored. The arts, he thought, are powerful shapers of character. Thus, to train and protect ideal citizens for an ideal society, the arts must be strictly controlled.
Plato's influence on western culture generally is a very strong one, and this includes a strong influence on the arts, and on theories of art. In the case of the arts and aesthetic theory that influence is mostly indirect, and is best understood if one knows a little bit about his philosophy.
Plato saw the changing physical world as a poor, decaying copy of a perfect, rational, eternal, and changeless original. The beauty of a flower, or a sunset, a piece of music or a love affair, is an imperfect copy of Beauty Itself. In this world of changing appearances, while you might catch a glimpse of that ravishing perfection, it will always fade. It�s just a pointer to the perfect beauty of the eternal. The same goes for other Essences, like Justice. Anyone knows that Real Justice is too much to hope for in this corrupt world. The best you can find is a rough approximation. To take a third example, the most carefully drawn circle turns out to be irregular if you inspect it closely enough. Like The Point, The Line, and all geometric shapes, The Circle is a mathematical ideal. It is not possible to draw a Real Circle, but only an imperfect physical copy (or instance) of one. (If you have ever striven to acheive an ideal, you may have have some sympathy with this part of Plato's philosophy.)
Beauty, Justice, and The Circle are all examples of what Plato called Forms or Ideas. Other philosophers have called them Universals. Many particular things can have the form of a circle, or of justice, or beauty. For Plato, these Forms are perfect Ideals, but they are also more real than physical objects. He called them "the Really Real". The world of the Forms is rational and unchanging; the world of physical appearances is changeable and irrational, and only has reality to the extent that it succeeds in imitating the Forms. The mind or soul belongs to the Ideal world; the body and its passions are stuck in the muck of the physical world. So the best human life is one that strives to understand and to imitate the Forms as closely as possible. That life is the life of the mind, the life of the Philosopher (literally, the lover of wisdom). Self control, especially control of the passions, is essential to the soul that wants to avoid the temptations of sensuality, greed, and ambition, and move on to the Ideal World in the next life.

[Dontaskme]

So not as real as a can or a packet then or can you show me this DIY 'God' like you can with a can or a packet?

No can or packet has ever been seen.

What is can or packet but just a label?

Labels are ''known concepts'' aka ''invisible thoughts'' superimposed upon ..no.thing by no.thing.....appearing as images.

Images of '' invisible thought'' aka the imageless appearing as a movie of things... known as concepts... by an invisible thought aka unknown knowing.

Try looking at an ''imaged object'' without ''thinking'' a name for that object...what is the object in that moment without it's label?

You'll see that it is not-a-thing...it's just an ''empty image'' just like a photograph or an image on a tv or computer screen is empty. There is no ''thing'' behind an image seen looking at the image....the looker cannot be seen only what it is looking at as imaged....all empty appearing full.

....life is an illusion albeit a persistence one ~ Einstein

You ARE what is prior to every thing which is no thing...appearing as everything as imaged.

The seer is inseparable from what it is looking at, the seer cannot be seen ...only what it is looking at as it identifies itself with the image...which is actually a mirror image of no thing...appearing as some thing ...a mirage.

The seer being the unknown nothing, and the seen being the known everything.

I know this all sounds like woo to the conditioned mind..but to the awakened mind ...it is the final truth of duality.

Beyond duality aka non-duality...is the source of all knowledge which is totally unknowable.

I've been studying this phenomena all my life, so I think that qualifies me to know what I am talking about, it has been a direct experience for me, it is called awakening.

Anyone can experience this knowledge via direct personal experience, it's not something I know and you don't..we all know because we're all the same unknown knower.

You have not been programmed to think like this at school..you have been programmed to think the opposite, else nothing would have made sense to you.

The real truth is that you are not in the movie of moving images, but are that which is watching the movie. The watcher is your eternal self, and the movie is your imagined self, aka the fictional character playing the role of the action figure in the movie that your eternal real self is watching.

If you are not familiar with this context, then it will not make sense to your mind, and your mind will reject it..this is normal.

Take it or leave it.

.

[Belinda]

It's true, Dontaskme, that absolute (not relative)reality may be undifferentiated, I think it is undifferentiated.

The ontological difference between the concept of God and the concept of a coca cola can is that the latter fits with temporal and spatial measurements while God fits with neither time nor space.

Many people however do think of God as something in space and time. And many of such believers think that this being can act to change the course of nature. I do not think think that you are one of those believers.

[Dontaskme]

It's true, Dontaskme, that absolute (not relative)reality may be undifferentiated, I think it is undifferentiated.

We don't need to think it is undifferentiated. IT IS...but if we want to KNOW it is undifferentiated we have to THINK it is.

So yeah, there is no entity here that knows anything, it's all thought, aka knowledge, aka language which informs illusory reality ..the illusion that there is a knowing entity called a separate I ...IN reality all knowing belongs to no I and every I

The ontological difference between the concept of God and the concept of a coca cola can is that the latter fits with temporal and spatial measurements while God fits with neither time nor space.

Yes, thank you.

Labels are in spacetime duality...and God which is not-a-thing...aka label ...is outside of spacetime duality....God is the nondual space in which duality arises inseparable from the space is it appearing in... SPACE is just another label for awareness. And we only know the concept space because of the object..they define each other in the moment, the only time there is. There is only ever this moment flipping from one side to the other ..which is only and ever in the exact same place..HERE NOW - NOW HERE....it is the mind that does this flipping..or flip-flopping as it's also known. Nothing ever moved, nothing ever changed simply because it's all an illusory movie. When we get emotional at the cinema, we know the movie is not real..and yet it has the power to evoke feelings and even tears in the eyes...that's how powerful BELIEF IN THE REAL IS.

When there is no belief in the movie of life, then there simply is no movie... just as there is no sense of I exist in deep dreamless sleep, when the mind is in abeyance...not the awareness, because the awareness is always here, otherwise you would not have known you had been asleep.

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Many people however do think of God as something in space and time.

Yes, they do, and this is why they become confused about what God actually means.

And many of such believers think that this being can act to change the course of nature.

Yes, quite right, but then changing the course of nature is within your own self, as a lucid consciousness,consciousness is a multi-dimensional being being no one and every one...you can control what you desire to do within the eternal laws that are in your particular DNA programming...aka being a human doing what humans do, you are not limited ..you are limitless within the framework of being human......but there are certain limitations within the programming for example if you say you desire to fly like a bird, then obviously you cannot fulfil that desire since you are not programmed to do that...that action is unique to the consciousness expressing itself as a bird..but a bird cannot build an artificial bird called a jet plane ..whereas a human can build an artificial bird and fly that way.

I do not think think that you are one of those believers.

I'm not, well observed, and this is the first time I have seen you resonate with what I talk about.

[Arising_uk]

No can or packet has ever been seen. ...

Shopping must be a trial for you.

What is can or packet but just a label?

Like "known" you appear to not understand what "label" means.

Labels are ''known concepts'' aka ''invisible thoughts'' superimposed upon ..no.thing by no.thing.....appearing as images. ...

Labels are signs or symbols stuck on things.

Images of '' invisible thought'' aka the imageless appearing as a movie of things... known as concepts... by an invisible thought aka unknown knowing. ...

"unknown knowing" - always false.

Try looking at an ''imaged object'' without ''thinking'' a name for that object...what is the object in that moment without it's label?

The thing I can point at.

You'll see that it is not-a-thing...it's just an ''empty image'' just like a photograph or an image on a tv or computer screen is empty. There is no ''thing'' behind an image seen looking at the image....the looker cannot be seen only what it is looking at as imaged....all empty appearing full. ...

And yet I can point it out to others?

....life is an illusion albeit a persistence one ~ Einstein

I doubt he spelt so badly.

You ARE what is prior to every thing which is no thing...appearing as everything as imaged.

And prior to my existence there was what?

The seer is inseparable from what it is looking at, the seer cannot be seen ...only what it is looking at as it identifies itself with the image...which is actually a mirror image of no thing...appearing as some thing ...a mirage. ...

So when I light a candle, leave the room then come back you can account for it being smaller in size how?

The seer being the unknown nothing, and the seen being the known everything.

"unknown nothing" - always false.

I know this all sounds like woo to the conditioned mind..but to the awakened mind ...it is the final truth of duality.

No idea what this 'conditioned' mind is? But to this mind it just sounds like a mish-mash of borrowed 'Eastern' religious metaphysics. Me, I prefer western philosophy and you're trying to talk about what cannot be known nor talked about.

Beyond duality aka non-duality...is the source of all knowledge which is totally unknowable.

Then stop speaking.

I've been studying this phenomena all my life, so I think that qualifies me to know what I am talking about, it has been a direct experience for me, it is called awakening.

What did your studies consist of?

Anyone can experience this knowledge via direct personal experience, it's not something I know and you don't..we all know because we're all the same unknown knower.

Go ahead, what are the techniques you used?

You have not been programmed to think like this at school..you have been programmed to think the opposite, else nothing would have made sense to you.

I don't know what schools you went to but mine just tried to teach painting, counting, reading and writing and then the sciences and the arts and humanities.

The real truth is that you are not in the movie of moving images, but are that which is watching the movie. The watcher is your eternal self, and the movie is your imagined self, aka the fictional character playing the role of the action figure in the movie that your eternal real self is watching.

What on earth is a false truth? The truth is you are a body with senses, memory and language in an external world.

If you are not familiar with this context, then it will not make sense to your mind, and your mind will reject it..this is normal.

Lol You should have been a marxist.

Take it or leave it.

There's nothing to take or leave I thought?

[Belinda]

Dontaskme, if you would use a standard model, that's to say stop the pretentious prose, then Arising_uk might not be able to find fault with what you write. Just write in your own words.

You come across to readers as someone who enjoys mystery for the sake of mystery.You set yourself up as an Aunt Sally ripe for teasing.